Why do we call the US America?

[Enchantress]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

Ms. Enchantress, I personally don't know any Columbians....but I have heard they are easily mistaken for Brazilians : )

I don't believe there is going to be a movement or any kind. I mean, we are dealing with the same arrogance and entitlement of those who ran American Indians from their own land, so why expect any changes?

Edited to say that I do know some Colombians though.

Aye dios mio. Here we go.. : )

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Enchantress

Tsk, tsk, tsk. ; )

¿Qué? : )

[Enchantress]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

Ms. Enchantress, I personally don't know any Columbians....but I have heard they are easily mistaken for Brazilians : )

I don't believe there is going to be a movement or any kind. I mean, we are dealing with the same arrogance and entitlement of those who ran American Indians from their own land, so why expect any changes?

Edited to say that I do know some Colombians though.

Why should we, generations later, be held responsible for this act? What makes us (Northern Americans of the now) so arrogant and entitled? Let's face it, there are people of all different backgrounds, countries and such that feel they are entitled and treat others with arrogance. So, I believe that you're simply generalizing at this point. No?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Enchantress

Why should we, generations later, be held responsible for this act? What makes us (Northern Americans of the now) so arrogant and entitled? Let's face it, there are people of all different backgrounds, countries and such that feel they are entitled and treat others with arrogance. So, I believe that you're simply generalizing at this point. No?

For the same reason that generations later you gave women the right to vote, the civil rights movement was successful and hopefully one day soon we, the GLBT community, will have the same rights as everyone else.

And yes, I am generalizing, only to rile you up : )

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

Ms. Enchantress, I personally don't know any Columbians....but I have heard they are easily mistaken for Brazilians : )

Omg i heard jews have horns like the devil

[Enchantress]

Selenay, just for clarification, the statement above (not yours, but UofM's) was an inside joke between the two of us. It is not in any way meant as racist, bigoted or malicious (even though without having inside knowledge you might somehow see it differently). So, please, do not take it as such.

Thanks!

[Waldo]

Are you kidding me with this?

Yeah, it might be dismissive of other countries of the Americas. Classist? I think that's a stretch. Privileged? um. er... to whom? What on earth makes you think that anyone from Cananda, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Argentina or any other country in the Americas would WANT to be included in the term "American" these days?

But um, among my circle of friends, associates, colleagues and whatnot? I don't know but a handful of people who would call themselves "American". You know the few I do hear it from? Folks in border states. Folks of a Republican bent. The very young and oh who else? Newly naturalized citizens oh so very proud to "be an American!" by gum.

And when I travel abroad, which I do fairly often these days, I hear folks use "American" in a very dismissive way in reference to folks from "The States". "Oh, she's an American." And lest you think I'm okay with that crap? I correct them every time. "No, I'm from the States" or in the Bush years I was known for being snide and saying "Well from the US, but I voted for Gore" or something similar.

And finally??? My god, what else can we turn into a class issue on this site?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Waldo

And finally??? My god, what else can we turn into a class issue on this site?

dang, diab/aldo! can't we have a class issue if we wanna have a class issue?

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by apretty

dang, diab/aldo! can't we have a class issue if we wanna have a class issue?

Oh fine. Go right ahead, I am getting used to banging my head against the desk.

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think it is important that when we are speaking of the US in particular we say US.

It seems pretty racist, classist and arrogant to say otherwise.

Apocalipstic

I know you personally and I respect you and adore you but I just don't buy this. I think those words are huge - racist, classist and arrogant and because I call myself an American doesn't mean I put a check mark by each one. I was raised and taught in school by TEACHERS to call myself an American. I've never heard of a United Statian til this thread. Perhaps not knowing this stuff makes me ignorant but I'd say it's a far leap from racist, classist and arrogant.

I respect your point of view. I know you've lived outside of the United States and that you're well traveled. I am not and honestly, I am not a big travelor. I think I'll stick to the United States and Canada for fishing on occassion.

I'd love for you and Mr C to come over, pick your poison(beverage) and you can tell me why I'm wrong

~~~shark~~~~~~~

[Apocalipstic]

So, even though people in the rest of the Americas find it loathsome and arrogant that we insist that we are the "Americans" and not them, we say that since "American" is easier to verbalize and since we learned to say "American" in school it is not worth even giving a thought to how it might make sound or feel to another American who lives in Columbia or Panama or Honduras.

Nice.

I know many of you personally and I really think it is worth at least some consideration. It makes us and our country look like assholes.
For me it is an important distinction.

Is it a class issue??? Good question. Maybe more of an arrogant, we have always done it this way, it is easier, I don't think I should have to change for anyone else thing with some racism below the surface. There are indeed wealthy people in outside the US who hate us calling ourselves Americans, so maybe that takes classism off the table?

I think the thought that people outside the US except Canada are fussy for resenting us for this is really really arrogant. Yes, I know we were brought up to think this and taught to think this in school, but the world is changing, we need to catch up.

[Apocalipstic]

I do want to say that I understand that for many of us this might be a low priority. I am just happy that we can have these discussions and hope that they will make us think a bit.

I thank everyone who is participating is this and other discussions like it.

[sharkchomp]

Now wait... are we not the United States of America that live in North America? Or are we just the United States. Does it not say on our declaration of independence, the United States of America?

I don't mind learning something new or looking at things in different ways, but why is it that I'm all the sudden racist, classist and arrogant? Perhaps I'm ignorant, plain fucking stupid or just misinformed. I invite discussions and expanding my mind but I loathe doing it from the stand point of "didn't you know you suck?".

I still adore you Jen and respect you immensely, we're just talking here.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Now wait... are we not the United States of America that live in North America? Or are we just the United States. Does it not say on our declaration of independence, the United States of America?

I don't mind learning something new or looking at things in different ways, but why is it that I'm all the sudden racist, classist and arrogant? Perhaps I'm ignorant, plain fucking stupid or just misinformed. I invite discussions and expanding my mind but I loathe doing it from the stand point of "didn't you know you suck?".

I still adore you Jen and respect you immensely, we're just talking here.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

Sorry I came off so strongly...I owe you a drink my friend! I do feel deeply about this, but understand this may be the first time you have thought about it , and that it is likely not a priority for you.

Sure we are American! and so is everyone else who lives in North, South and Central America.

I think as a country, if we refered to our country as the "US", instead of as "America" it is more respectful to all the other American's and it might help our image overseas.

I get that you might think what other countries think of us is not important, but it really is even if you don't plan to travel thoughhhhh....the fishing in Argentina and Chile is unbelievable, I will show you pictures that will make you weep . The Argentines and Chileans are American's too.

I think it helps us all be more safe when traveling and as a nation here at home if we try to be respectful of the rest of the world. We are not the "only" Americans.


Am I making sense?

[Boots13]

Hmmm, seems like both continents have been called America since the 1500's , or so...
wouldnt that make us all Americans?

yet even today Italians dont call it America but rather Stati Uniti

" Amerigo Vespucci was a Florentine merchant and navigator who made at least two transatlantic trips to the New World, voyages that inspired cartographer Martin Wardseemüller to label the new continent "America" in 1507. Vespucci was employed by the Florentine Medici family as a representative for their operations in Seville, Spain. He went from supplying ships to joining the expedition of Alonso Ojeda as a navigator. Although the record is unclear, it is generally accepted that Vespucci sailed with Ojeda to the northeastern coast of South America in 1499, under the flag of Spain. He made a second voyage in 1502. The story that he reached South America in 1497 is held to be apocryphal; the story that he made a fourth voyage in 1504 is also considered suspect. Somehow an account of a 1497 voyage was published, and Wardseemüller came to believe that Vespucci had commanded the expedition and had reached the New World before Christopher Columbus who found the mainland in 1498. Wardseemüller named the continent America and the label stuck. "

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Hmmm, seems like both continents have been called America since the 1500's , or so...
wouldnt that make us all Americans?

yet even today Italians dont call it America but rather Stati Uniti

" Amerigo Vespucci was a Florentine merchant and navigator who made at least two transatlantic trips to the New World, voyages that inspired cartographer Martin Wardseemüller to label the new continent "America" in 1507. Vespucci was employed by the Florentine Medici family as a representative for their operations in Seville, Spain. He went from supplying ships to joining the expedition of Alonso Ojeda as a navigator. Although the record is unclear, it is generally accepted that Vespucci sailed with Ojeda to the northeastern coast of South America in 1499, under the flag of Spain. He made a second voyage in 1502. The story that he reached South America in 1497 is held to be apocryphal; the story that he made a fourth voyage in 1504 is also considered suspect. Somehow an account of a 1497 voyage was published, and Wardseemüller came to believe that Vespucci had commanded the expedition and had reached the New World before Christopher Columbus who found the mainland in 1498. Wardseemüller named the continent America and the label stuck. "

Absolutely! We are all Americans. North, Central and South America...all of us American.

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Sorry I came off so strongly...I owe you a drink my friend! I do feel deeply about this, but understand this may be the first time you have thought about it , and that it is likely not a priority for you.

Sure we are American! and so is everyone else who lives in North, South and Central America.

I think as a country, if we refered to our country as the "US", instead of as "America" it is more respectful to all the other American's and it might help our image overseas.

I get that you might think what other countries think of us is not important, but it really is even if you don't plan to travel thoughhhhh....the fishing in Argentina and Chile is unbelievable, I will show you pictures that will make you weep . The Argentines and Chileans are American's too.

I think it helps us all be more safe when traveling and as a nation here at home if we try to be respectful of the rest of the world. We are not the "only" Americans.


Am I making sense?

No worries dear friend!!!! You're absolutely right, I have never once thought about this. I was taught that I am an American. I say that with pride. I love my country. I am often shocked at how much the world hates us. I found this out first hand when I traveled to Jamaca(conflict, guards, locals told us to go home, uncool!). I can promise you that I won't go back there. As far as our politics go, I wish we would leave the world alone. Help those in need such as Haiti but concentrate on our own problems.

I do think it's important what other nations think of us, but does me calling myself a US citizen rather than an American really make that big of an impact? I would think the actions of our government make a far greater impact. That said, I would hope my calling myself an American would in no way make anyone in another country feel negated. In fact, if we all are Americans here in the West, then it's a true statement, albeit a very general one.

So, if I'm ever in another country (unlikely unless Canada), I'll be sure to say I am from the United States for the sake of peace and respect. And I can't wait to see your fishing pictures!!!!!!!

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Bit]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

"I think it's because people in Europe were used to calling it "America" long before there were any independent countries here"

I am sorry, but I take offense to this part of your post. Where exactly is here?

And when Europeans called it America they were referring to the continent, not the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci

When I said, "before there were any independent countries here" I meant on the two continents named America, and I myself made it pretty doggoned clear in that post that Europeans referred to the continent as "America." I really don't see how anyone could have missed that, given the rest of my post... but hey, I italicized it this time just to make it clear.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I do want to say that I understand that for many of us this might be a low priority. I am just happy that we can have these discussions and hope that they will make us think a bit.

I thank everyone who is participating is this and other discussions like it.

Priority/Not priority: I don't see it as either. I see it more as an exercise in self-awareness. Since the U.S. has such a huge influence in the world, since the U.S. has such an overwhelming stake in communications, entertainment etc. it can be hard for people living in the U.S. to imagine how the country is seen from outside of it's boundaries. Honestly I'm surprised that there as many "Americans" as there have been who have come on this thread and seem to have considered this question already. I live on the U.S./Canadian border, interact with my neighbours to the south on an almost daily basis, and seldom see as much awareness of this issue as I have here.

It seems kinda like the topic of white privilege: when it's all normal for you then it's pretty damned hard to think of how it's perceived by others, affects others, affects you yourself.

Great discussion. Great thread.

[Write14u]

snips:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Sure we are American! and so is everyone else who lives in North, South and Central America.

I think as a country, if we refered to our country as the "US", instead of as "America" it is more respectful to all the other American's and it might help our image overseas.


I think it helps us all be more safe when traveling and as a nation here at home if we try to be respectful of the rest of the world. We are not the "only" Americans.

Totally getting your point here ... and with the thread as well.
But, as Waldo said, it doesn't seem like anyone from South or Central America or Canada is rushing to call themselves "Americans" and who could blame them, based on the rep those from the U.S. have abroad. (although...can we say STEREOTYPE, much? Is every person from the U.S a loud obnoxious "American?")

Also, for any Canadians, Central/South Americans (and I'm legit asking this) ... what is stopping you from calling yourselves Americans if you want to since you ARE indeed Americans?

Back to what you said about saying "from the U.S." ... well, according to the Declaration of Independence, the name of this country *is* the United States of America. It seems like most countries have a derivative to refer to its citizens, such as Argentinian, Brazilian, Chilean, Canadian, Guatamalen, Columbian. "American" does seem like a natural progression for people from the U.S.
I, too, wonder what other name would work (without being derogatory) as United Statsian a) seems unwieldy and b) leaves out what we're the united states of. Maybe our forefathers should have called us the United States in the Americas. But I don't think all of them were that well traveled enough to understand how much more there was out there.

How does it make people from the U.S. dismissive, arrogant and possibly racist if they choose to call themselves Americans ... if those from South and Central America don't choose to call themselves that?

I certainly understand and respect the viewpoint of others who are also obviously Americans, but I don't think U.S. citizens identifying themselves as Americans means they're racist or arrogant or dismissive unless they're denying someone else the right to do so as well.

And speaking of arrogant ... Yanks, gringos? ... That's just stereotyping and making generalizations, as well.

I think awareness of this issue is a great thing to have. But it seems to me the correct word usage might be "unaware" as opposed to dismissive. Simply because someone was taught they were an "American," doesn't mean they're being dismissive of others. Let's teach people instead of simply generalizing about an entire nation.

And for the record, I ascribe the U.S.'s bad rep abroad to the same "Jeff Foxworthy theory" about the South. He jokes that it's "always the least intelligent among us that ends up on TV." I'm sure there are plenty of people from the U.S. who travel the world without drawing the word obnoxious, but damn those idiots that give us all a bad reputation.

Just my thoughts and opinions anyway.