FTM's Attracted to Femmes

[blush]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

[SweetJane]

This is a very interesting thread. Being my age, I pass as straight--and in the wider world out there it's nobody's business how I identify. But when I'm in this community, it is more difficult. I'm old school and a very, very late bloomer so a lot of this is new to me. I also prefer to be approached but I will mingle and make small talk in a group. In fact, I'm struggling today on whether to go to a couple events in the city tonight when I know absolutely no one and will go alone. It's a tough call.

[twist of lime]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

Now, now that isn't always the case, but I can get where you are coming from. All that fluffin' n' carryin' on can be intimidating. haha I can see where one might be scared. Handbags and shoes and and and... can get expensive.

*disclaimer* I know there are varying degrees of femme-ness and some may not even like handbags or shoes or or or...

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by twist of lime

Now, now that isn't always the case, but I can get where you are coming from. All that fluffin' n' carryin' on can be intimidating. haha I can see where one might be scared. Handbags and shoes and and and... can get expensive.

*disclaimer* I know there are varying degrees of femme-ness and some may not even like handbags or shoes or or or...

I am one of those varied degree femmes who is still viewed as girly. Which cheers me up and amuses me. So as long as my perceived maintenance isn't held against me it can be charming. But when the perceived maintenance cost is held against me without evidence I do get prickly and know to keep moving on.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

As an aside, I have never thought of what you describe as a "girly girl" as automatically being a "high maintenance femme" or one who spends a lot of money on her outside self or would expect me to spend that on her. Being on the extreme end of "feminine" society's definition based on external presentation) doesn't equate to this. Women do their own nails, dye their own hair, etc (the accoutrements of "girly girl"). I am actually surprised by your statement, as I personally haven't heard other masculine identified people say this before?

This is so true! I've never heard any masculine identifying person who professed to an attraction to Femme as concerned with the expense or 'maintenance' of presenting femme (in all of the social and historic manners of femme presentation)...

At the same time I hear a lot of talk on this subject of high maintenance/too girly and it feels both femme vs femme (competitive) and heteronormative--though you probably can't extract one from the other.

Thoughts?

[theoddz]

Hmmmmm....well, I've never thought about declining an opportunity of getting to know a woman I've found to be interesting, simply because she was "girly" and I suspected that that fact was going to "cost" me, monetarily.

My best friend of over 25 years is a delightful Femme and has been my friend and confidant for all these years. When we've gone out for a meal, a few of the waitresses we've had have openly flirted with me. Irene gets a good laugh out of it because I never seem to notice it. It goes right over my head. I am a friendly guy, of course, and I try to smile at everyone and be sweet, give compliments and such, but I guess I hardly ever see the "flirt" part of it, mostly because I've "deconditioned" myself to it for so many years.

Being my age (now 51), and having lived so many of my years in a Butch shell, before transitioning, I developed a sort of "skin", or 2X4 nature, and I think that is because of the (seemingly) constant whispering, snickering, demeaning and sometimes just calloused remarks aimed at us by str8 homo/transphobes. It's like you just turn that switch off that notices how others look at us, talk about us, etc. As it turns out, that's a double edged sword because I have trouble recognizing/paying attention to a woman who might be trying to get my attention in the flirty, or positive, sense. Oh, I have pretty good "gaydar", having lived in the Lesbian/Queer world for 30+ years, but I'm not good with recognizing the "come on".

Since completely transitioning and now passing 100%, I've found that this particular trait I have with this has served to my definite disadvantage, because unlike most/many of my XY brothers, I just don't have that "aggressive" confident trait of pursuing a woman, or recognizing her attentions. It's really left me out in the cold a lot of times.

I prefer a woman who is more subtly direct, if that makes sense. It's not what I'd term "aggressive", insomuch as more directly approaching me and wanting to get to know me. Once the cards are on the table, I'm much more likely to work my courage up to go further. If she's more after my friendship first, the more likely I am to be attracted to her.

On the other hand, I often wonder if I had had the opportunity to have transitioned say, in my 20's or earlier, would I be differently-minded?? Perhaps.....yeah.....probably.

~Theo~

[Miss July]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

Cost you too much $$ really??
I take care of myself just fine and cost no one $.
FYI I adore FTMS and I'm VERY femme and never seem to have problems finding them in hiding. Although I think many times they ASSume we are not interested in their handsome selves.
Again it's all ones perception.

Just my .02

[Miss July]

Originally Posted by blush

It's not my job to "look femme" or roll around in a stereotype of femme to make myself more noticeable. This is femme invisibility at its finest when our community is too lazy to delve past the "too straight" stereotype to see femmes.

Imagine a world where butches and ftms had to wear indicators in order to be recognized.

Amen.....!

[clay]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

you rock......smiles

[Miss July]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I gotta be real and say I own nothing vintage, I'm not artsy hell I can't draw a straight line and I'm not sure what over dressed is unless you mean layering...

I still lust ya
*Smirk's*

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I hope that ButchEire comes back to clarify, but I really think that hy was being tongue in cheek while trying to be supportive of the OP who was sadly lamenting the fact that she struggles with finding a FTM who is interested in femmes. I personally didn't see the OP as being offended by it, rather she is just saying she wished she could find this type of FTM.

The OP indicated that she was talking about FTMs preferring other masculine defining people rather than femmes. She didn't say anything about about high femmes, or femmy femmes, or whatever...just "femmes women".

No clarification needed. I've seen the same type of posts in this and other threads, i.e. "I'm heartbroken because someone said I'm too XYZ". I stand behind my statement in general, not just in response to a single post in this thread.

[twist of lime]

Soooo, as I understand it, sometimes there are clues and sometimes there are not.

There are many things that could be visual signals and there are many things that are not.
(Signals of the mind, I imagine. *hypnotic eyes)

There are things that are true for one, but not for the next, but no less true and those things do not automatically oust that person from any said group.

People in general are becoming so diverse, it makes it hard to deduce much about any one person beyond what we can see. What I'm saying is that you could see anyone, like any one of us, anywhere in the world and say "This is China", "This is the U.S", "This is Africa", "This is Mexico", "This is Finland", and so on. This does not mean that any one of these people maintain or have interests in traditions specific to that country (and not to say that they don't, either). You may very well find that the person in China and the one in Africa have the same interests as you, less difference, if you will.

Soooo... all that being said, I guess we need to open our mouths and start getting to know one another. To know the truth (and depending on how much you are told, even that can be suspect at times... lol).

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by apretty

This is so true! I've never heard any masculine identifying person who professed to an attraction to Femme as concerned with the expense or 'maintenance' of presenting femme (in all of the social and historic manners of femme presentation)...

At the same time I hear a lot of talk on this subject of high maintenance/too girly and it feels both femme vs femme (competitive) and heteronormative--though you probably can't extract one from the other.

Thoughts?

Could you say that second paragraph a different way? I am struggling with following you here...want to make sure I am reading you correctly.

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

If you will reread what I said ---I said I was not saying this to be nasty ----just bringing up another point of view.

[weatherboi]

Whenever i hear the term high maintenance to describe a women it is usually done with the intent to complain about them.

"She is sooo high maintenance"
"She is tooo high maintenance"
"She was so high maintenance she drained me" the guy was talking more emotionally than financially.


it puts value on women...


"i got myself a high maintenance woman. but she is worth it"
this conversation the guy was insinuating the women he was presently with was gonna cost him more money to be with than the last woman he was with.

honestly i am usually inclined to be the party pooper and say something when i hear that term used by butches, men, trans guys.

when i hear femmes use it to describe themselves i don't not feel inclined to say anything. not my place but it does make me wonder the need to create hierarchy.

[Heavenleahangel]

I hope I am saying this right and I don't offend anyone. I have always been a little confused about saying a femme is high maintenance. I thought it meant the femme was into perfect make-up, hair, nails, skin treatments, designer clothes/bags and the such daily like it was financial maintenance. I can also see how someone can be "HM" emotionally. This may be my "country-bumpkin" side showing. While I love dressing up for occasions, doing hair/nails etc, I don't do it everyday. I guess that doesn't make me high maintenance, right?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find it odd that HM applies to Femmes, it's like Femme's are expected to look, walk around, function looking as if we just stepped off a magazine cover shoot..

Like you Heavenleahangel I on occasion "dress up" or on occasion I put on my war paint everyday, sometimes it's required others I do it cause I feel like it.

How come this particular descriptor isn't used on butches/guys/trans folk?

Why do we as Femme's continue to let others define us and set a hierarchy that should never exist certainly not from the mouths some guy/butch/trans person..


Stuff to think about...

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Heavenleahangel

I hope I am saying this right and I don't offend anyone. I have always been a little confused about saying a femme is high maintenance. I thought it meant the femme was into perfect make-up, hair, nails, skin treatments, designer clothes/bags and the such daily like it was financial maintenance. I can also see how someone can be "HM" emotionally. This may be my "country-bumpkin" side showing. While I love dressing up for occasions, doing hair/nails etc, I don't do it everyday. I guess that doesn't make me high maintenance, right?

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

------------

It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.

[veryfemme]

wow I learned something new about myself today, I am not high maintenance better yet I am a "high femme" and I like that way more.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

------------

It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..