How important is language?

[Silverseastar]

Hello. My question stems from a butch asking me to describe how I viewed them and did they seem like a man.

I'm curious, why would someone ask this question? What would be the appropriate response in this situation? Honesty? Further questions?

In my attempt to describe it I hurt their feelings and it made me feel terrible. I used the terminology of "other gender" not male and not female but masculine energy. I'm looking for more understanding as they won't talk to me about it. Please be gentle with me though!

Also is this a topic best shied away from if it comes up? Meaning is it too personal and sensitive a place for most butches? The ones I have dated in the past were never this sensitive about it so maybe it is about being in the trans spectrum?

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Hello. My question stems from a butch asking me to describe how I viewed them and did they seem like a man.

I'm curious, why would someone ask this question? What would be the appropriate response in this situation? Honesty? Further questions?

In my attempt to describe it I hurt their feelings and it made me feel terrible. I used the terminology of "other gender" not male and not female but masculine energy. I'm looking for more understanding as they won't talk to me about it. Please be gentle with me though!

Also is this a topic best shied away from if it comes up? Meaning is it too personal and sensitive a place for most butches? The ones I have dated in the past were never this sensitive about it so maybe it is about being in the trans spectrum?

Would it have been... good or bad... for them to be seen like a man?

I can't imagine you said anything "bad" enough for them to not be talking to you. Sounds like they were setting you up, if so.

I figure, if someone asks a question like that, then you're free to answer honestly (and best, if gently).

This is an interesting topic in a variety of ways. Can you give more details?

[Silverseastar]

Tapu- What kind of details would you like? I appreciate the feedback

[DapperButch]

That question sucks.

Unless you are a mind reader, and said exactly what they wanted you to say, it was a no win situation for you.

I'm sorry that happened.

Not a fair question unless you know them really, really well ...well enough to be certain that they won't be hurt by whatever answer you may give them.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

That question sucks.

Unless you are a mind reader, and said exactly what they wanted you to say, it was a no win situation for you.

I'm sorry that happened.

Not a fair question unless you know them really, really well ...well enough to be certain that they won't be hurt by whatever answer you may give them.

Well on top of that, what kind of a weird insecure person ASKS that sort of shit?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Well on top of that, what kind of a weird insecure person ASKS that sort of shit?

The same kind of person who asks "Does this dress make me look fat?"

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

The same kind of person who asks "Does this dress make me look fat?"

What about "do these glasses make me look smarter?"?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Hello. My question stems from a butch asking me to describe how I viewed them and did they seem like a man.

I'm curious, why would someone ask this question? What would be the appropriate response in this situation? Honesty? Further questions?

In my attempt to describe it I hurt their feelings and it made me feel terrible. I used the terminology of "other gender" not male and not female but masculine energy. I'm looking for more understanding as they won't talk to me about it. Please be gentle with me though!

Also is this a topic best shied away from if it comes up? Meaning is it too personal and sensitive a place for most butches? The ones I have dated in the past were never this sensitive about it so maybe it is about being in the trans spectrum?

Also, I think that they won't talk to you about it b/c they know it was an unfair question and they are embarrassed that they asked it.

I am also guessing that they are in the middle of trying to figure out their gender/sex and are feeling frustrated. But, it seems as though they took it out on you. That is not cool.

[Hollylane]

Originally Posted by betenoire

What about "do these glasses make me look smarter?"?

Or....

Honey, do you think that femme woman over there is hot?

What do you think of her chest size in comparison to these?

[Silverseastar]

Well to be fair this is a young butch struggling with trans identity for a while. I agree I felt sort of cornered but I don't think that was the intent.

For my part I think in retrospect I wish rather than answering I had asked why to see where the conversation might go and gain more insight.

Thank you all for wading in with your opinions. I appreciate the feedback more than you can possibly know.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Hollylane

Or....

Honey, do you think that femme woman over there is hot?

What do you think of her chest size in comparison to these?

See, I would never ask those questions! Instead I say things like "listen, see that woman over there? You totally have permission to sleep with her. And if you don't; I will."

But I'm a terrible person.

I really did say the glasses thing, though. What?

[macele]

is she new to coming out?

a butch woman sometimes needs a femmes approval, i think.
if she is tying to figure out if she is a homosexual or a transsexual.

just speaking from my experience,
it's a big relief when a femme really digs your tomboy ways.

not all lesbians are attracted to other women with masculine ways.
may be she is questioning you for that reason. she wants to know if you like.

insecurity can be a mega factor for a butch just coming out.
i'd say she is questioning herself.

i don't know the statistics, but they have to be high, ...
that most butch women wonder if they are really supposed to be male.
she has to work thru a lot. it's thought about, for sure.

[Hollylane]

In all seriousness...

Nothing like being set up for a 50/50 chance at failure.

I think that you are right, waiting and feeling it out for a friend might have been better. However, I think the friend should be able to handle the answer to the question they put you in the position of answering.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Hello. My question stems from a butch asking me to describe how I viewed them and did they seem like a man.

I'm curious, why would someone ask this question? What would be the appropriate response in this situation? Honesty? Further questions?

In my attempt to describe it I hurt their feelings and it made me feel terrible. I used the terminology of "other gender" not male and not female but masculine energy. I'm looking for more understanding as they won't talk to me about it. Please be gentle with me though!

Also is this a topic best shied away from if it comes up? Meaning is it too personal and sensitive a place for most butches? The ones I have dated in the past were never this sensitive about it so maybe it is about being in the trans spectrum?

If it were me? The first thing out of my mouth would have been 'do you feel like a man?'.

Sure, it's deflection, but like others have said...the question was out of the blue and unfair if the two of you had not spoken of your friend's presentation before.

I do think, however, despite the way your friend went about it, it shows a great deal about YOU in that they chose you to ask. That speaks volumes about the type of friend they think you are.

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Well to be fair this is a young butch struggling with trans identity for a while. I agree I felt sort of cornered but I don't think that was the intent.

For my part I think in retrospect I wish rather than answering I had asked why to see where the conversation might go and gain more insight.

Thank you all for wading in with your opinions. I appreciate the feedback more than you can possibly know.

Hindsight, right?

I think you were as fair as one might expect.

Originally Posted by macele

is she new to coming out?

a butch woman sometimes needs a femmes approval, i think.
if she is tying to figure out if she is a homosexual or a transsexual.

just speaking from my experience,
it's a big relief when a femme really digs your tomboy ways.

not all lesbians are attracted to other women with masculine ways.
may be she is questioning you for that reason. she wants to know if you like.

insecurity can be a mega factor for a butch just coming out.
i'd say she is questioning herself.

i don't know the statistics, but they have to be high, ...
that most butch women wonder if they are really supposed to be male.
she has to work thru a lot. it's thought about, for sure.

Since this thread is about a friend asking another friend if they saw them as a man and we've been informed that this butch has been struggling with his trans identity, I think it's inappropriate to refer to him as 'her'.

It feels weird, like if someone called me 'sir' or 'he'.

[always2late]

I agree with Gemme...the only possible response to a question like that is "How do YOU think you seem?" I also agree with Dapper that the question sucks. I understand that the person asking may be young, and may be conflicted, but still that question is very unfair to ask of someone else. You cannot define anyone's identity for them..so any answer you could have given could be perceived as the wrong one. And then to hold your answer against you...that is just unfair.

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Hello. My question stems from a butch asking me to describe how I viewed them and did they seem like a man.

I'm curious, why would someone ask this question? What would be the appropriate response in this situation? Honesty? Further questions?

In my attempt to describe it I hurt their feelings and it made me feel terrible. I used the terminology of "other gender" not male and not female but masculine energy. I'm looking for more understanding as they won't talk to me about it. Please be gentle with me though!

Also is this a topic best shied away from if it comes up? Meaning is it too personal and sensitive a place for most butches? The ones I have dated in the past were never this sensitive about it so maybe it is about being in the trans spectrum?

I was just poking around and opened up this old thread and it ... almost ripped my guts out... I can so understand the question... I am getting close to 50 years in this world and I still 'feel' the same question inside myself....

I am non transitional, I firt with straight girls, play with married ones and date those who were married (to men) in their past.

Why would someone ask this question? (damn.. emotional issue this one is)
I am choked up... even teared up a little... Some 30 years of therapy and it still bites. I think they felt a pretty high level of trust to have said it out loud. Some part of me STILL wants to be compared 'as being' male, I don't really know why, I don't think I realy want to hear the truth...(chuckle) Last year, I was having a really bad disphoria event and while in a drunken state, emailed my girl and asked the very same question. Then panic set in and I called on the phone to tell her not to reply...

What would be the appropriate response in this situation? frankly ...concern.
I would say to ask, "Are you feeling ok?" ... if you can offer some validation, look them in the eye and them find a masculine trait that you can honestly say does regisiter as masculine. If you can, find 3 such traits and let each one soak in a bit before you say the next one.

Honesty? yes... that is best,

Further questions? yes, ... maybe starting with. "I am curious why you asked me that?

{{In my attempt to describe it I hurt their feelings and it made me feel terrible. I used the terminology of "other gender" not male and not female but masculine energy. I'm looking for more understanding...}}

my insight into this comes from a recent reaction I had to feeling as if I was being lumped in with androgyny... I was SHOCKED that I was so angry... to even possibly... be classified as such that.. I had a knee jerk reaction to want to transition, as if I had to PROVE I was NOT andro' ... the experence made me wonder how many other FtM's transition JUST to find respect...

I agree that it is not the responsiblity of the person who hears the question to figure out the 'right' answer... I am just offering some 'behind the scenes' point of view.

Also is this a topic best shied away from if it comes up?
...sigh.... really, yeah... it is so much of a loaded issue... I think if someone asked, ask them questions back... they started it. be honest.... ask them what they are needing... why did they ask...

Meaning is it too personal and sensitive a place for most butches?
Most ???? I don't know.... I do know I can only face this issue because i have been in therapy for so long and done so much work, learning how to deal with the gender issues.... disphoria is a killer... and I am not being funny about that.

{{The ones I have dated in the past were never this sensitive,}} .. it may have been a bad day for hym... most of the time I am ok, but today is not so great..
I believe hormone levels have some heavy effect on this issue. A lot of FtM/TransButch etc, still have monthy cycles, and it can be really hard to deal with.


{{ ... maybe it is about being in the trans spectrum}} It very well could be,
there are not words available that can really discribe.. what its like to be trapped in a body that doesn't 'fit'.

But, hey..... I am glad this thread is here.
Every time a little more truth and understanding is shared, the world gets to be a little bit easier to live in.

thank you for asking.

[Chancie]

It's up to me whether I choose to answer an awkward question. I suspect I've asked an awkward question myself once or twice.

I don't know what your connection is to the young butch. There are young femmes and butches at school, and a few years ago I took a big chance and told a student that she looked handsome and that her date looked beautiful at prom, a twist on what I would tell another couple.

I would probably ask someone why they were asking.

[Toughy]

Since this thread is about a friend asking another friend if they saw them as a man and we've been informed that this butch has been struggling with his trans identity, I think it's inappropriate to refer to him as 'her'.

I think it's entirely appropriate to refer to this individual as she. Until that butch says I prefer male pronouns, I am part of the default is female pronouns set. S/he works well for that situation. However that only works for the written word.....and verbally I am female pronoun default.

Asking if I look like a man does not mean I want male pronouns. Struggling with trans issues does not mean male pronouns. When you don't fit societal norms for woman you have to figure it out. By immediately jumping to male pronouns if I ask 'do I look like a man' can leave the impression that if you ask then you are a he because well you look like one and you asked.

More than one young butch has come to me with the same question and struggle. Yes the question sucks, but I have learned the answer to that question is a question and not a statement. My question back is usually along the lines of why do you ask./what's going on that you ask. The best advice and answer is to get the young one to talk.....once s/he starts talking then the working out the issue begins.

[BullDog]

I agree with Toughy. The question to me does not imply how the person identifies or feels about themselves one way or another. It could be based on what has been said to the person (why do you look like a man) or about their own internal feelings or a combination of both.

A young butch questioning things does not automatically mean they are trans. They may be or they may not be. Being a butch or other type of non-conforming woman brings many questions as well.

My default for butch is also she. I only call a butch he if that is what an individual person specifically wants to be called. The vast majority of butches I have ever met in real life have been she.