Kevorkian documentary on HBO

[Butterbean]

Has anyone seen this yet? I caught the last half and was riveted. Now, I need to catch the first part of it.

He's such an odd man. Originally, I supported his imprisonment and believed he should spend the rest of his life in prison. His behavior struck me as vulgar.

Now, after a few deaths in my family, and his post release, I'm not so sure. He has some points.

I think I agree with him on his philosophical standings...but how he goes about it is just awful.

He is obviously quite intelligent and pretty ornery and his snapping at the film maker's "stupid" questions is a hoot.





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[Soft*Silver]

I have not seen the documentary but I am familiar with his work. Like you, I am affected by the deaths in my family, particularly my father's. He begged my sister to help him leave. I know if I get like that, someone better love me well enough to help me cross over that bridge.

[always2late]

I am a nurse...I watch people die of terminal illness on an almost daily basis. And its never been the dying that bothers me....its watching the agonizing pain that most of these patients endure before they die. Yes, we give them morphine and everything else we can to ease their pain...but why are they allowed to linger in a semi-comatose, drugged to the gills and yet still in pain state until their body eventually gives out?

We will put animals out of their misery...yet we let people go on for days, weeks, even months in agony I can't even imagine, when their death is inevitable anyway. I am all for mercifully helping these people end their lives. I know if I were terminal...I would want someone to give me the option of an early out. Anyone who thinks that assisted suicide is cruel....volunteer to work with hospice patients. I guarantee you will change your mind.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I don't have HBO, so I didn't see the documentary. I have been there to witness several loved ones take their last breath. Each one died from some form of cancer. I think we are more humaine to animals when it is time to put them down, then we are to human beings. Your body can only take so much. I am not healthy, and I know when my days are bad, they are bad. So, I hope and pray that someone will help end the politics and stupid thinking behind keeping everyone alive into their 100's. It is just not right. Pills keep people alive. And there is a time and place for everything, but at a point in time, it is time to let go, and move on.

[ravfem]

i was in high school the first time i heard the word "euthanasia", and went to the library (card catalogs, anyone?) to read up on it. i immediately knew i was in favor of it, especially for myself. As Andrew said, why is it that we're more likely to make sure our animals don't suffer than we are ourselves and the people we love? i know much of it is emotion and selfishness, but for me, i truly do not want to be hanging on for no reason what-so-ever.

i took a thanatology course in college, and during that time we had to make out our dying wishes as well as what we wanted to happen as far as a funeral/celebration of life, and what we wanted to happen to our remains. i still have all that info in my filing cabinet and everyone close to me knows about it (i've also given copies to several people). i have a living will and a DNR, along with my organ/body donation info.

Quality over quantity, for me.

[MrSunshine]

Originally Posted by always2late

I am a nurse...I watch people die of terminal illness on an almost daily basis. And its never been the dying that bothers me....its watching the agonizing pain that most of these patients endure before they die. Yes, we give them morphine and everything else we can to ease their pain...but why are they allowed to linger in a semi-comatose, drugged to the gills and yet still in pain state until their body eventually gives out?

We will put animals out of their misery...yet we let people go on for days, weeks, even months in agony I can't even imagine, when their death is inevitable anyway. I am all for mercifully helping these people end their lives. I know if I were terminal...I would want someone to give me the option of an early out. Anyone who thinks that assisted suicide is cruel....volunteer to work with hospice patients. I guarantee you will change your mind.

and one is, you are a Damn Fine Nurse. I have been on the receiving end of eyes like yours.

[lipstixgal]

I definitely think we need to rediscover how to die in this country. Any nurse will tell you that. People suffer with all kinds of pain. Hell my mother was in a semi-comtose state on morphine and life support for 2 two weeks of sheer hell. I wanted to pull the plug to put her out of her misery. I was happy that she died in her sleep, peacefully and not in pain.

[Blade]

I have made the choice to put many animals to sleep. It's the kindest thing you can do for them. I also believe it is the kindest, most loving and unselfish thing you can do for a human also. Especially people who are terminal and in so much pain and have no quality of life. And if it is by their choice who are we(general we) or the government to say they can't end their misery?

In 2002, my Pa had a stroke, which threw him into Alzhiemers really bad and he didn't have any control over his right side. Then he started to aspirate on everything that went into his mouth. His flapper quit working and everything was going into his lungs. He's always said he didn't want to linger like his brothers did and not know he was even in the world for 20 yrs. They offered a feeding tube and we declined and we decided to pretty basically let him starve. Sounds cruel, but it was the only legal way to put him out of his misery.

I like many of you, have watched friends and family go down hill and the only comfort they had was morphine and hospice. Praise God for those folks, I don't think I could be around people day in and day out that I knew were terminal and keep my own sanity. So yes I believe in what Dr K does and no I have seen the documentary.

[Glenn]

The deal with this guy being in prison is that relatives of people were complaining that he was also "putting to sleep' folks who were mentally ill, suicidal, and depressed, and not only those who were physically ill.

[waxnrope]

I am overseas, visiting my sister who has cancer. The one thing that she is afraid of is pain. Having worked in HIV/AIDS as health care provider, then in both Methadone and Pain clinics, there is no reason to suffer pain, IMO. The arguments of addiction are stupid, and that argument still floats around. Who gives a shit if you have a terminal illness or not? And, yes, Andrew, we do treat animals better when it is time.
My sister has my promise that she will not suffer .... nor linger.

[Manul]

My body belongs to me.

[Abigail Crabby]

I personally think my life is a gift from God - and I wouldn't take measures to end my own life for any reason.

But it's not my right to dictate how others live or die. So I don't believe that Kevorkian should be jailed for his actions.

He was acting on behalf of those who asked for his help, and I believe it's their right to choose how their life ends.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Butterbean

He's such an odd man. Originally, I supported his imprisonment and believed he should spend the rest of his life in prison. His behavior struck me as vulgar.

...
I think I agree with him on his philosophical standings...but how he goes about it is just awful.

.

i'm curious as to why you (originally) supported his imprisonment? how was his behavior vulgar? what behavior? his work?

what about 'how he goes about' ending someone's life is awful?

_

i have seen the documentary, i never thought that his helping someone end their pain should be up to anyone except that individual (and if the patient isn't in a position to decide--that's when i would think others need to be involved.)

i really don't get how much (all?) of health care, for the individual, is the concern of government agencies and insurance companies: a person's wishes often come last.

last, i happen to think that good doctors are a little 'odd' --they're certainly not charming and maybe not even mannerly, but that doesn't take away from them being good at 'doctoring'.

[Corkey]

My mother had cancer, metastasized. Before she lost consciousness she asked my father to take his glock and kill her. I think that doctor supervised end of life decisions should be left to the patient. My father was faced with a horrible situation, he should never have been put in. My mother sadly passed less than a week later as she was DNR. He cried for days afterward, they had been married 45 years, just. Dr. Kavorkjan is a Doctor I wish my mother could have seen. I believe he is doing his best to uphold his Hippocratic oath.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

The deal with this guy being in prison is that relatives of people were complaining that he was also "putting to sleep' folks who were mentally ill, suicidal, and depressed, and not only those who were physically ill.

So, only those who are physically ill should be allowed to determine how they do or do not live their lives?

[socialjustice_fsu]

hospice licensed clinical social worker for about 8 years. I have been witness to so many aspects of the death and dying process that sometimes when I reflect back on what I do for a living it all can simply overwhelm me from time to time. I have walked the floors of a state of the art hospital and witnessed people in sheer agony due to the depth of their pain and despair. Some physician's want to have the patient hold on for a myriad of reasons. Some families cannot let go...perhaps guilt, unfinished business, or simply thinking they cannot live without their loved one regardless of their status? I have walked into homes of a new hospice patient that has received a terminal diagnosis - with maybe only weeks to days to live. They have begged myself and my hospice nurse to 'take them out.' Many have a plan. Many simply need someone to say "I would want what you want, too." I have watched our hospice be summoned (often reluctantly be the attending physician) and sometimes in just hours we can get the pain under control and the patient to a peaceful space. This allows for families, friends, lovers, partners to say what they need to say...I love you, I forgive you, Will you forgive me? Thank you, Goodbye. If a patient is in horrific pain they often cannot fathom what is happening to them much less 'participate' in their own death.

Taking this from another angle...my work has brought me up close and personal with folks that are SUFFERING with end stage Alzheimer's disease. If you don't know much about this...please...find a local unit and take a walk through. You will never, ever be the same. Watching these folks go from prominent, productive souls to eating their own feces, crawling on the floors, screaming for no apparent reason we as practitioner's can see, not eating properly and an overall danger to themselves and their loved one's will bring you to your knees at night asking "Why must they suffer so?" The answers allude us all at hospice. We provide loving support, therapeutic touch, gentle redirection and lamely attempt to help them maintain an iota of their dignity. I ask you...if you had a choice would you want to finish your years such as this? Would one choose suffering? Let me throw in the caveat...the unit/facility that I contract with for Alzheimer's disease is an upper end facility...actually top of the line in the Southeast...a one month stay costs about $5800.00. Medicaid does not pay anything. Medicare does not pay room and board under any circumstances at an Assisted Living Facility. How do families even begin to pay for such living arrangements? Most of us in our 40's, 50's and 60's may have a meager 401K but most corporate pensions are unheard of. So not only does one have to consider the agony of their loved one's condition, the utter despair and helplessness of the family...but the outragous cost of health care for folks with this ruthless disease.

Okay, back to the thread...people must have the right to make well-informed decisions about their bodies. Yes, I believe being of sound mind when making such decisions are essential. Yes, right now two of my patient's both with advanced kidney cancer that has spread to the thoracic region, the spine, and both femurs have shared with me their 'plan' they have with a trusted, loved one to end this nigthmare. To me, these are my heroes. I believe them to be visionaries in their own right. Can I help them with this plan? No, it is illegal for me to do so. Can I support them? Of course. Can they call me when their time is 'near' for validation and unconditonal acceptance for this mercy they have grown. Of course. Death is an intimate but mighty journey for anyone to experience. Let people CHOOSE their way. If they choose no treatment. Love them for it. Hold them as they face days in which they are getting close to end of life...be it by their own hand and assisted by someone who understands the depth of facing death. Death need not be frightening...but welcomed as a refuge of peace.

Make your needs known. Now. Have 'that talk.' There is now a document available that is good in 40 states. It is called "Five Wishes." This is what it covers in detail: The person I want to make care decisions for me when I can't; the kind of medical treament I want or don't want; how comfortable I want to be; how I want people to treat me; and what I want my loved ones to know. This is printed and made available through a grant from Aging with Dignity (Robert Johnson Foundation) and printed here in Florida. I have access to many copies of this legal document. I invite you to PM me if you want to have use this document. My hospice has agreed to pay the postage.

So...is 'Jack' on the right track with his actions? Although his views are often seen as radical because of the WAY plans are carried out makes it hard to completely digest in it's entirety. Of course, many trailblazers are viewed as 'off the chain' and 'beyond all reason.' He is making us think. Making us talk. This is how change comes into our lives. We work so hard on living well isn't it time we start dying well, too?

[Butterbean]

Apretty, I've sat with and held the hand of 3 immediate family member as they have died. And, then there's a few I hardly knew...

"Dying with dignity" for any of my family members would not include a "death machine" while being filmed and aired on 60 minutes. Then, there's that part about the organ removal I've only heard of and prefer not to see.

So..I get the aspect of people having control over their own lives and bodies and not expecting them to endure untold suffering, and agree with that.

I believe he could have handled it with more dignity, more compassion and far less politically and "out there."

Should he have been imprisoned for that? I don't think so anymore. Not after some of the things I've witnessed since my original opinion.

Originally Posted by apretty

i'm curious as to why you (originally) supported his imprisonment? how was his behavior vulgar? what behavior? his work?

what about 'how he goes about' ending someone's life is awful?

_

i have seen the documentary, i never thought that his helping someone end their pain should be up to anyone except that individual (and if the patient isn't in a position to decide--that's when i would think others need to be involved.)

i really don't get how much (all?) of health care, for the individual, is the concern of government agencies and insurance companies: a person's wishes often come last.

last, i happen to think that good doctors are a little 'odd' --they're certainly not charming and maybe not even mannerly, but that doesn't take away from them being good at 'doctoring'.

[DamonK]

So far, in the last 11 months, I've watched at least 10 people die horrible, lingering deaths.

I've had still others ask me for death.

Just last week, I was told "X" had an hour. "X" lingered for almost 20 hours later, slowly bleeding out.

If the situation is severe enough, such as "X"'s situation, assisted suicide should be an option. I think there should be documentation supporting this decision, and at least one trusted guardian to ensure the decision is carried out.

Like others, I can't help them with death. I'm simply a CNA. But at the end, they don't know that. They know I'm the guy that comes in fairly often and does all I can to make them comfortable.

What they don't know is I usually end up leaving feeling sick, knowing their level of suffering, and knowing no one can do anything to speed up the process.

I know I wouldn't want to live 30 years as a vegetable.

I've someone who is one of my emergency contacts. I don't doubt that if he could find a way to carry out my wishes, if need be, he'd do it.

[Scota_Parisi]

Having been there for the passing of several family members, I can say that suffering shouldn't even be necessary in our world today. But there are still those out there that feel they have the right to dictate to others every small detail of living. How many of us here on BFP have heard that we are going to hell just because we have embraced our sexuality? My Mom loves me but I'm going to hell she says.

With that in mind, you have the same group mindset that throws up a wall when this issue comes up. They want to toss up every religious, biblical and ethical wall to stop what they deem as a very evil thing.

I haven't seen the documentary. Sometimes, societal views and changes come about because of those people that are willing to share their stories no matter how sad or bitter. I have no doubt in my heart and soul that a human being should not suffer until the sad and often very extremely painful bitter end.

[SuperFemme]

i am terminally ill.
people that love me will do what i've requested ahead of time.
because the doctors won't, and the vet won't take me.