Law and Order: SVU with Special Guest Kathy Griffin as lesbian

[NJFemmie]

Thank you! Our TV died (yes, it was sad) ... so I need to make sure we're upstairs for this one. I am curious to see how it plays out.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'll engage you because I have a few minutes to waste.

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

So here's where (part of) the privilege comes into effect. Straight people USE the queer community to make a shit ton of money while giving NONE of it back to the queer community. That's exploitation, for one. But it's also the way dominant culture works to oppress the oppressed group and keep them down. TAKE from the oppressed group, without utilizing the oppressed group's skills/without giving back to the oppressed group/etc.

*snip*

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In, which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Dylan

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

To say that "none" of it went back is a false statement.

Sean Penn openly lobbied for legislation to honor Harvey Milk, long after Oscar season was over. Would he have done this, had he not been involved? Hard to say.

Milk's screenwriter was honored at a charity ball in June, with all of the proceeds going to Lifeworks, an organization that offers mentoring opportunities for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender youth.

The clothing worn by Penn during Milk, also was auctioned off with some of the proceeds going to the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School.


How much of the proceeds from heterosexual films in which roles are played by gay actors go to queer communities? Just a thought.

[Soft*Silver]

NBC, Wed, Mar 3 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gemme

What night is this airing? My memory is pretty much shot now.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In, which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

Your points are valid

Soooo, Sean Penn donated a suit he didn't even pay for? Wow! That must have been tough for him to part with, eh? While a majority of the money he made (and academy award that should have gone into the queer community) gets spent in straightdom. While, had a queer actor had this role, it would have A) made queer actors more visible, B) would have mainstreamed queerdom even a little more, C) would have put more queer money into the queer economy, D) would have opened more doors between queers and straightdom.

Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out. Do you think 'Milk' would have made the same amount of money without a completely straight cast? How many straight people benefitted and made gads of money in Milk? How many queers? How many queers suffered to make the story of Milk? How many queers died to make that story? Now, how many straight people made gads of money off of that suffering while not one queer played a queer, because 'real' queers aren't palatable or profitable enough for mainstream America? How about that movie NJFemmie posted a pic from? How many trans folks and gender variant people suffer everyday, so straight/cis actors can make a killing off of making gender variance 'humorous' and palatable for mainstream America? And how about RuPaul? Wouldn't that have been a prime opportunity to cast a gender variant person? Oh, but wait, it wouldn't have been a) funny or b) profitable. Oh, and how about The Birdcage and Robin Williams and that other guy who's name I can't remember. Oh, or Brokeback Mountain.

Here's the thing, had queer played themselves, more of that millions of dollars paid to those actors would be back INSIDE the queer community, making the queer community stronger. Generally speaking, do you think queers would have given more money to fighting Prop 8 or do you think queers would have given token donations to a school? Do you think queer academy award winners would be speaking out against Prop 8 and using whatever big name leverage they have against Prop 8 or giving a suit to a non-profit? When queers make money, the queer community (generally) makes money...money that is used to fight hate crimes bills, Mormons, support queers with jobs, etc. When that money is given to straights, more of that money stays in the straight community...at the expense of queers. AND stereotypes are perpetuated.

And again, can you explain to me how straights playing queers is different from blackface and/or men playing women (as in Shakespeare days when women weren't allowed to act), etc from a dynamic of power/oppression? I mean, even now, women only make up 29% of speaking roles in major movies, and only 3 of 100 films are directed by women. Is that sexism or just 'directing'. I have a really hard time believing ANYONE here would be in agreement with men playing all the roles of women in major movies and would just call it 'acting'.


Dylan

[Queerasfck]

It's about money really and how much the straight world will "buy" into the gay world. High ratings equal more money What do we as the community get back? I would love to support queer business and arts as much as possible and do. Problem is the choices are few. Then I just get the feeling we're being exploited especially when it comes to accurate representation in the media. The thing about a show like the L Word was that it was mostly crap, in writing and acting. Some queer had an idea for a show (which coulda been a really good idea) and Showtime decided they could make money off of it ("hot women having sex with each other, it sells"). Yes, there were a few queers in real life on the show as someone else already mentioned. Also the show's creator Ilene Chaiken is a lesbian and two of the directors are out lesbians, Rose Troche and Angela Robinson come to mind. It didn't represent any lesbians I know, and not realistic about it's protrayals of everyday people, homosexual, lesbian, queer or otherwise most of the time. I mean who goes out to breakfast with their friends everyday before work and then goes clubbing several nights during the work week?? Really no different than Queer as Folk. At times unbelievable about more serious topics as well....
The SVU episode clips NBC shows is all about shock value in hopes to gain viewership as the rating slip for that played out show. It's just about how far they can push things to get you to watch. It's too bad because I do like the cast.
Milk was directed by Gus Van Sant an out gay man. I don't think of the money went back into the gay community. But wouldn't it be great if performances like those in the movie Milk or Brokeback Mountain could really change people's ideas about certain stereotypes. For the most part I don't think they do. My sister who loves, loves James Franco and has seen everything James Franco has ever done wouldn't even see Milk because she thought it was a "downer". Probably the majority of the hetro US population don't want to see regular stories about queers. I think we as a queer people do more by living our lives outwardly when we can on a daily basis. We're really just the same as everybody except we don't have rights.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

*snip*
Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out.
*snip*

I have more to respond to this, but I gotta get back to work.

However I wanted to answer the academy award bit.

I get what you are saying...You are right, not many. I can only think of 2.
Jodie Foster
Ian McKellen

Of course, the rumors fly about Kevin Spacey and Phillip Seymour Hoffman

[SassyLeo]

Apparently Josh Brolin and James Franco are the same dude?

HA!

All along, I meant James Franco.

Clearly my 10 days without coffee is bad for my memory.

And also, I think he was a risky choice for Milk. In that is was a risk for him to play a gay man, when he has a straight girl/teen/woman following as a "hot actor"

He doesn't seem to be hurting for roles these days.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In, which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

Glad to read this. The visibility helps.

[Dylan]

Sassy,

Why on Earth would anyone go without coffee for ten days?


Dylan

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sassy,

Why on Earth would anyone go without coffee for ten days?


Dylan

Oh crap, well... on Jan 4th, I stopped eating processed sugars and cut way down on carbs. Then a few weekends ago, I got food poisoning and barely ate for week, which included no coffee. So, I thought...eh, I'm already kind of cutting out stuff, let's see how I fare without coffee.

Honestly, I miss it. But I'm determined to try without it for one month to see how different I feel.

My boss said to me this morning: "You're so quiet. What's going on?"

Clearly it is having some kind of affect on me. Effect?

[Soon]

An Open Letter to the Closeted Leading Man

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

That's weird- a conversation on media representation and cultural perception of lesbians is exactly what I've seen taking place in this thread. So yes, you are mistaken. I'm not going to "direct you" because I'm not going to waste my time breaking it down for someone whose apparent agenda is instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues to more properly engage his interest.
If the subject is not interesting to you then don't read it. Insulting the intelligence of everyone who posted in the thread may not be the best tactic for getting what it is that you seek.

To state my "agenda" as you did was a huge leap of illogic wrought of assumption. "Instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues?"

You completely dismiss that there are trans/queer/and male members of the site posting in this thread, yet you state that I was only addressing the lesbians and women. Interesting, though false.

A conversation on media representation of lgbt individuals and community could be quite compelling, speculation about whether Mariska Hargitay is gay or not, how many gays will jump for joy should she reveal herself to be, is not. And frankly, I found the whole conversation about lesbians who are former strippers sort of gross. (Which is more about the way it was presented than the topic itself.)

Yes, I think it's safe to say you entirely misread my "agenda."

If you really want to discuss what the conversation here has been, the fact is lately it's been more focused on the imbalance of power in Hollywood (in terms of revenue & status) than on "media representation." Otherwise, I'm done discussing your offense at my post and would much prefer to discuss that while Ellen's tv sitcom tanked after she came out, she now has a very widely viewed talk show and was selected to host the immensely popular American Idol.

Tiny in-road for gays and lesbians or mainstream culture tossing us a bone?

[torchiegirl]

That clip was weird. My eyebrows are still pulled down.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

To state my "agenda" as you did was a huge leap of illogic wrought of assumption. "Instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues?"

You completely dismiss that there are trans/queer/and male members of the site posting in this thread, yet you state that I was only addressing the lesbians and women. Interesting, though false.

Not at all. I do believe it was you that insulted everyone posting, not me. I appreciate the input of allies in this discussion which began on the topic of a specific media representation of lesbians. No one else instructed lesbians and women on how they should alter their discussion to maintain the interest of non-lesbians. Only you. Interesting the assumption you made. Very interesting.


A conversation on media representation of lgbt individuals and community could be quite compelling, speculation about whether Mariska Hargitay is gay or not, how many gays will jump for joy should she reveal herself to be, is not. And frankly, I found the whole conversation about lesbians who are former strippers sort of gross. (Which is more about the way it was presented than the topic itself.)
Yes, you've already made clear that the topic is not of interest to you. It is to others. Obviously.


Yes, I think it's safe to say you entirely misread my "agenda."

If you really want to discuss what the conversation here has been, the fact is lately it's been more focused on the imbalance of power in Hollywood (in terms of revenue & status) than on "media representation." Otherwise, I'm done discussing your offense at my post and would much prefer to discuss that while Ellen's tv sitcom tanked after she came out, she now has a very widely viewed talk show and was selected to host the immensely popular American Idol.

Tiny in-road for gays and lesbians or mainstream culture tossing us a bone?

----------------------------

[Mister Bent]

Cyclopea, if you feel insulted or dismissed by my post, that's one thing.

But to consistently try to apply to me an agenda that is nowhere in evidence simply comes across as personal issue on your part.

Nowhere did I address my comments toward "lesbians and women." I'm not sure why it's so important to you to paint me as a misogynist homophobe, but I can assure you, I am not.

If you'd like to continue to promote your argument, please consider using the handy PM feature, because this is tiresome.

Thanks.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

An Open Letter to the Closeted Leading Man

It'll be very interesting to see if someone does it. It occurs to me that many of the rumored A-list closet cases have gone to such great lengths to establish a straight facade by the time they reach superstardom, that were they to come out belatedly they might be regarded as enormous liars in addition to being gay men. Not sure how that would work out for someone like John Travolta or Tom Cruise at this stage in their career.
As the boomer generation of A-listers retires and dies some interesting revelations will probably "come out".

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Your points are valid

Soooo, Sean Penn donated a suit he didn't even pay for? Wow! That must have been tough for him to part with, eh? While a majority of the money he made (and academy award that should have gone into the queer community) gets spent in straightdom. While, had a queer actor had this role, it would have A) made queer actors more visible, B) would have mainstreamed queerdom even a little more, C) would have put more queer money into the queer economy, D) would have opened more doors between queers and straightdom.

Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out. Do you think 'Milk' would have made the same amount of money without a completely straight cast? How many straight people benefitted and made gads of money in Milk? How many queers? How many queers suffered to make the story of Milk? How many queers died to make that story? Now, how many straight people made gads of money off of that suffering while not one queer played a queer, because 'real' queers aren't palatable or profitable enough for mainstream America? How about that movie NJFemmie posted a pic from? How many trans folks and gender variant people suffer everyday, so straight/cis actors can make a killing off of making gender variance 'humorous' and palatable for mainstream America? And how about RuPaul? Wouldn't that have been a prime opportunity to cast a gender variant person? Oh, but wait, it wouldn't have been a) funny or b) profitable. Oh, and how about The Birdcage and Robin Williams and that other guy who's name I can't remember. Oh, or Brokeback Mountain.

Here's the thing, had queer played themselves, more of that millions of dollars paid to those actors would be back INSIDE the queer community, making the queer community stronger. Generally speaking, do you think queers would have given more money to fighting Prop 8 or do you think queers would have given token donations to a school? Do you think queer academy award winners would be speaking out against Prop 8 and using whatever big name leverage they have against Prop 8 or giving a suit to a non-profit? When queers make money, the queer community (generally) makes money...money that is used to fight hate crimes bills, Mormons, support queers with jobs, etc. When that money is given to straights, more of that money stays in the straight community...at the expense of queers. AND stereotypes are perpetuated.

And again, can you explain to me how straights playing queers is different from blackface and/or men playing women (as in Shakespeare days when women weren't allowed to act), etc from a dynamic of power/oppression? I mean, even now, women only make up 29% of speaking roles in major movies, and only 3 of 100 films are directed by women. Is that sexism or just 'directing'. I have a really hard time believing ANYONE here would be in agreement with men playing all the roles of women in major movies and would just call it 'acting'.


Dylan

So, here's the thing. I pretty much agree with you on all of this. I am not denying that society/media/entertainment is still homophobic. I would love to see more Queer actors and especially in big roles. And I am sure they are out there. Ones who are fucking amazing! Yes, it absolutely sucks that we don't have as much visibility.

Before I was alive, my mom lived and worked in Hollywood. One of her oldest friends is a gay man who worked in the industry as well. He was actually in Rebel Without A Cause (woohoo 15 minutes of fame! not really, he actually did OK for himself). He totally could not be OUT. Of course it was the 50's and that would have killed any career he imagined. He came out much later in life.

Ellen may have suffered some initially, but she is certainly not suffering now. In fact, quite the opposite. Jodie Foster has had a strange go of it the last few years. Wanda Sykes...doesn't she have a show on Fox? The Wanda Sykes Show? I thought Queen Latifah was OUT? I read somewhere that she and her partner were talking marriage. I could be wrong about that...

What I don't want to do is lose sight of the progress that has been made. I think it is important to continue to acknowledge it, make note of change, even if it is small.

[Diva]

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Cyclopea, if you feel insulted or dismissed by my post, that's one thing.

But to consistently try to apply to me an agenda that is nowhere in evidence simply comes across as personal issue on your part.

Nowhere did I address my comments toward "lesbians and women." I'm not sure why it's so important to you to paint me as a misogynist homophobe, but I can assure you, I am not.

If you'd like to continue to promote your argument, please consider using the handy PM feature, because this is tiresome.

Thanks.

I have a “personal issue”? Yes, I do. My “personal issue” is that most LGBTQQI people find the topic of whether or not a public figure is “one of us” quite interesting. Meredith Baxter, Markista Hargitray, Vin Deisel, Chaz Bono, Jodi Foster or Caster Semenya, all interesting to LGBTQQI peeps and our allies. We also find the “coming out” of celebrities quite interesting. Media representations of LGBTQQI people: also intrinsically interesting. We don’t need to frame our comments by outlining the social history of LGBTQQI people because most of us have been soaking in it for years. Therefore we often speak in a shorthand on such topics among ourselves.

You’ve stated repeatedly that the topic of whether famous actors are lesbian or not is of no interest to you, and instructed posters repeatedly to frame our conversation on lesbian visibility in a way that is more interesting to you. My “personal” response is to ask you to desist insulting lesbian members and our allies that do find this conversation interesting. It’s unfortunate that I am not able to effectively communicate something to you that seems so obvious and fundamental. Perhaps that is my failing, or perhaps simply a sign of your personal issues. I am not interested in PMing a stranger who insults me and everyone in the thread. If you continue to make dismissive comments I will continue to address them.