05-05-2011, 02:44 PM | #141 | ||
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Queer, trans guy, butch Preferred Pronoun?:
Male pronouns Relationship Status:
Relationship Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,329
Thanks: 4,090
Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,032 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
To me his death is neither here nor there. Whatever threat he may have posed was created by the US itself when it chose to intervene on the side of "freedom fighters" (aka extremists) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Unfortunately these mistakes are being repeated in Libya in particular. Instead of rejoicing over the death, maybe people should take this time to truly think about the effects of their actions, how American imperialist intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere has caused so much death and very little good whatsoever (and now Western power in general in Libya). How about learning from past mistakes instead of rejoicing over the death of a American made enemy and on the other side claiming how America is in the "right." That would evidently be asking too much. On a side note, all this "god bless america" stuff makes me a bit queasy, really. That's so problematic I don't even know where to begin. Quote:
|
||
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to EnderD_503 For This Useful Post: |
05-05-2011, 02:49 PM | #142 | |
Timed Out - TOS Drama
How Do You Identify?:
........ Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ........
Posts: 2,402
Thanks: 4,981
Thanked 8,925 Times in 1,834 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
Quote:
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Novelafemme For This Useful Post: |
05-05-2011, 05:34 PM | #143 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Woman Preferred Pronoun?:
HER - SHE Relationship Status:
Relating Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird
Posts: 5,408
Thanks: 11,826
Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
Quote:
I know many people that have never set foot on a college campus that are avid readers of a multitude of subjects and can sit my butt right down and fill me in on things I do not know. Guess there needs to be a hunger for knowledge and to keep up with current events. Sometimes, I do tire of the stereotypes of people in the US- more than half of us are to the left of center and do not like US imperialist ways. Many serve in our military and in our government- but at present, just don't have enough of a majority in our political institutions to get agendas moving in another direction. Hell, it has only been 2 years since "W" and "Dick"! PS- I did see your mention on the Western powers involvement in Libya (UN). Sometimes I wonder if a strong multi-country aliance could be built among just people- and have some effect on all of these countries. An internation aliance with an understanding of how we all contribute to these insane acts against other countries. I knmow, I'm an idealist. |
|
The Following User Says Thank You to AtLast For This Useful Post: |
05-05-2011, 11:50 PM | #144 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Stonefemme lesbian Preferred Pronoun?:
I'm a woman. Behave accordingly. Relationship Status:
Single, not looking. Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,467
Thanks: 9,474
Thanked 7,150 Times in 1,206 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Apologies in advance. I normally read all the way through a thread before I post, but I'm on painkillers due to an accident, and I just don't have enough continuity of thought at this time. I confess to having merely skimmed this thread, but I wanted to post my experiences here, anyway.
I live in a Brooklyn neighbourhood notable for it's Lower Manhattan views. Every time I see my amputated skyline I still don't recognise it, even nearly 10 years later. The attacks of 9/11 changed my city in so many ways I can't begin to name them, and none of those changes were positive. I didn't personally lose anyone in those attacks, but I lost my city as I knew it, and I took it all very personally. I've been following bin Laden's career in terrorism since early in the Clinton administration. He was responsible for a great many horrible crimes. I knew instantly that he was responsible for the attacks of 9/11 since they bore his signature style. Like many, I rolled my eyes at Bush Jr's cowboy rhetoric following the attack, ("You can run, but you can't hide." Remember?), but I actually expected him to follow through on that promise. Silly me. I was disgusted and appalled when it became increasingly obvious over the next year that Bush had no intention of capturing Osama bin Laden, and was instead using our loss as a pretext to attack Iraq, a country that had never attacked us. Sure, Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, but he wasn't the bad guy who attacked us. That bad guy was laughing his ass off at us while we spent our resources and precious young lives chasing his sworn enemy, Saddam Hussein. And we looked like a bunch of ignorant bigots who couldn't tell one Arab from another. I saw the failure to capture bin Laden as a clear issue of criminal justice. I became increasingly horrified that my money was about to be used to wage an illegal and immoral war, so I did the only thing I could think of. Almost a year and a half after 9/11 I put up a sign in front of my house. It was a day-counter that asked one simple question. This past Sunday night my sign read: 9 years, 232 days since 9/11/01 WHERE IS OSAMA BIN LADEN? I changed the number on my sign every morning since the first day I put it up nearly 8 and 1/2 years ago. When I went on vacation, (or on an unexpected journey to the hospital after my recent accident), my wonderful neighbours changed the number for me. The sign had become sort of iconic in my funky artist's neighbourhood, and my neighbours were very supportive of the message. My sign was both a vigil and a daily protest. I asked the question because no one else was asking. I counted the days because it was unconscionable to me that this criminal was at large for so long. I deliberately made the simplest sign possible because I had one important question, and I didn't want anything to distract from it. For the last 9 years and 232 days no one in the mainstream press or in the criminal Bush administration seemed to care very much about the answer. The phone started ringing on Sunday night and it didn't stop for days. My wonderful neighbours helped me take my sign down on Monday morning. I had no idea at the time that it was about to become part of the mainstream media coverage of bin Laden. Some reporters called first, but many just showed up and knocked on my door. ALL DAY. And all day Tuesday, too. Interviews and pictures of my sign ended up in at least 6 newspapers including the NY Times, and some radio and television spots as well. I was sorely tempted to ask all those reporters where they had been for the last 9 years and 232 days, but I decided to stay on-point instead. The recent accident that sent me to the hospital was quite serious, (18 broken bones including a shattered pelvis that needed 8 hours of surgery to rebuild), and I worked my butt off to get 'paroled' from the rehab facility on Saturday. Yay for me. DAMN, it's good to be home! I'm just so very glad that I was home in time to take my sign down on Monday morning. I think I would have chewed my arm off in frustration had I still been incarcerated in rehab. The really good thing that came out of all this is that my simple sign, with all it's cracks and peeling paint, is going to the permanent collection of the 9/11 Museum which will open in the basement of the new WTC in 2012. (On a personal note, I have to say that I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY to have had so many published pictures of me on crutches and wearing my hideous white plastic clamshell body brace and one unnaturally swollen thigh. Ugh.) There's been a great deal of soul searching about what it means to rejoice over bin Laden's death. Some have been arguing that his demise makes no real difference. I wish more people would remember that this is about criminal justice. I don't celebrate in the streets when any other murderer is captured, and I have no illusions that taking one murderer off the street will end all crime. Criminal justice is about holding each person responsible for their crimes. The person who murdered 3,000 of my neighbours and changed my city forever is no longer at large. There will be other mass murderers, but this was about one man and his crimes. My question was answered. I'm happy to have been able to take down my sign.
__________________
Cheryl |
05-06-2011, 12:00 AM | #145 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
*** Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ***
Posts: 4,999
Thanks: 13,409
Thanked 18,366 Times in 4,171 Posts
Rep Power: 21474854 |
Wow! Thank you for sharing that, Cheryl!
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Martina For This Useful Post: |
05-06-2011, 01:52 AM | #146 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Woman Preferred Pronoun?:
HER - SHE Relationship Status:
Relating Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird
Posts: 5,408
Thanks: 11,826
Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
Quote:
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to AtLast For This Useful Post: |
05-06-2011, 08:00 AM | #147 | |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Stonefemme lesbian Preferred Pronoun?:
I'm a woman. Behave accordingly. Relationship Status:
Single, not looking. Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,467
Thanks: 9,474
Thanked 7,150 Times in 1,206 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
Whoops! Derail over.
__________________
Cheryl |
|
05-06-2011, 08:23 AM | #148 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Butch Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wine Cellar
Posts: 163
Thanks: 130
Thanked 434 Times in 117 Posts
Rep Power: 3304127 |
Cheryl, that was one of the best posts I've seen anywhere on the subject.
This stupid 24 hour news cycle we've adopted just exacerbates an already problematic situation. We, as a country, haven't educated the public and we don't even understand how badly it's affected our soul. I spent a month working in the towers back in May 2001, but for the grace of God go I. I've studied the event, UBL and our reaction. I find this country's behavior lacking. We (as a country) thump Bibles but never actually read one. I spoke with a Jewish friend of mine about this yesterday and she had one of the best perspectives I've seen out here on the west coast. Full disclosure, she was born in Israel, raised in NYC and now lives in California. Her daughter lives in NYC today. She said no matter how heinous the crime, you cannot celebrate the death of another and leave your own soul intact. I think every thinking person can arrive at that same conclusion no matter their faith. |
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Diavolo For This Useful Post: |
05-06-2011, 10:07 AM | #149 | ||
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Queer, trans guy, butch Preferred Pronoun?:
Male pronouns Relationship Status:
Relationship Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,329
Thanks: 4,090
Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,032 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
What I find different though is the way other nations presented the invasion to the general population vs. the way the American people were addressed. For the Americans it seemed a blatant ideological war (or wars), while there was, as far as I have ever read, never any large degree of popular support for the "war on terror" in nations like Germany and France despite military participation in Afghanistan. I think it was also a media issue, in that there seems to be more diversity in information and perception presented by the media in other nations than the US, where it seems the mainstream media consistantly supported the war for many years (perhaps until recently). I think a big part of the problem is that the actions of the American government and military continue to act as an "us vs. them" issue for many Americans. It should have nothing to do with "othering" other nations and cultures the way many Americans do. With Osama Bin Laden's death it continues to be presented as an "us vs. them." I have a big issue with that. When he was killed, I'm not sure I saw the British or the Spaniards reacting the same way as the Americans did, and while the death toll was not the same in those two nations, they did suffer attacks by fundamentalists. Quote:
In many respects it feels like Osama and US support for extremist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan all over again, as though the West needs a new "demon" to fight and is in the process of creating one in Libya. Overall, I have the same wish you do. I think that with social media like Twitter in particular it will become easier for people around the world to network and organize themselves into a coherent voice and social force more easily without the government middlemen interfering. Maybe that will make a difference, but again that may just be idealism. As far as an international alliance, it is a pitty that Trotskyism is not as embraced as other forms of communism. I think the Trotskyist/ICL approach to creating that international community (albeit very small) fighting for the people as a whole without borders is excellent. If only it were on a larger scale. P.S. sorry for snipping up your post |
||
05-06-2011, 11:56 AM | #150 |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?:
She Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In A Healing Place
Posts: 5,371
Thanks: 18,160
Thanked 22,782 Times in 4,469 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
Ender you make some good points, but all Americans have not reacted to the death of Bin Laden in the same way. You seem to be making some pretty big generalizations there.
__________________
Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke |
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BullDog For This Useful Post: |
05-06-2011, 04:20 PM | #151 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?:
see above Relationship Status:
independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oakland
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 4,068
Thanked 7,656 Times in 1,522 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
I thought Ender was talking about all those folks that were shown on CNN celebrating. I don't see the gross generalization other do.
Concerning celebrating the death of a mass murderer. Many folks in this country are revenge motivated and that's why they celebrated. Revenge was had........bin Laden shot in the head and dead. It's the same sort of revenge you see in the death penalty. An eye for an eye.....and we all end up blind. I facilitate a group at the SF VA Medical Center....all veterans with 90% of them having been in combat (from Vietnam, Korea and up to today). I brought up bin Laden. Some folks might think a great cheer went up cuz we got him dead....after all this is a room full of combat warriors who wanted bin Laden dead....some had been in Afghanistan. There was silence and soft spokens words about justice. Someone even said he should have been captured and brought to trial in a US Federal Court .....not a military tribunal. S/he felt a civilian trial with a guilty verdict would in fact strengthen and show the US believes in it's Constitution and the rule of law. It really was basic police work that found him in that compound in Pakistan. I personally don't think we can wage a war on terror with armies and drones and bombs. Terror is a tactic. To catch the leaders ordering this tactic requires good old fashioned boots on the ground police work. Police work and civilian courts brought justice with the first WTC bomber. I would expect the same thing can be repeated without killing people. |
05-06-2011, 06:04 PM | #152 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
*** Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ***
Posts: 4,999
Thanks: 13,409
Thanked 18,366 Times in 4,171 Posts
Rep Power: 21474854 |
Re a previous post --
Public school education is not to blame for the ills of the world. Nor are teachers. It is harder to get credentialed than it has ever been. Coursework, testing and supervision are rigorous. Teachers are required to do a huge amount of professional development. And we are under more scrutiny and exposed to more criticism than ever before by groups who do not have a clue about what our working conditions are like. And curriculum development? Huh? There are amazing curricula out there. The problem is right wing school boards and book publishers who pander to them. We are not the problem. We know our fields. We know our students. The people who think they know better are the problem. Most teachers have Master's degrees. Many of us have more than one. It's not a career for idiots. And our students are not lacking in character. Young people are not the problem. Nor are the professionals, meaning fully credentialed ones, working with them. Why do people love to take potshots at teachers and young people? i do not understand why it is so gratifying. Maybe it relates to some fear. i do not know. It is young people fighting these damned wars and dying in them, by the way. Often young people of color. They are not to be feared and despised. They are to be thanked. Most of the people taking potshots at us would not be willing to spend an hour in my school with my students, much less dedicate their careers to working with them. And these are the kids most likely to go to the military and most likely to serve in dangerous areas. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Martina For This Useful Post: |
05-09-2011, 10:01 AM | #153 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
femm Preferred Pronoun?:
she Relationship Status:
dating Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 107
Thanks: 128
Thanked 164 Times in 51 Posts
Rep Power: 286409 |
Obama said, "anyone who questions whether the terrist mastermind didn't desrve his fate needs their head examined." Ouch! Anyone in here know agood head examiner?
|
06-01-2011, 10:11 AM | #154 | |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Femmesensual Transguy Preferred Pronoun?:
He, Him, His Relationship Status:
Dating Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rio Vista, CA
Posts: 1,225
Thanks: 3,949
Thanked 3,221 Times in 757 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Here's a GREAT article from Noam Chomsky about the killing of Bin Laden and how it broke all sorts of international laws. I just had to share it with you all.
Quote:
|
|
06-01-2011, 01:20 PM | #155 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Woman Preferred Pronoun?:
HER - SHE Relationship Status:
Relating Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird
Posts: 5,408
Thanks: 11,826
Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
Quote:
Sometimes I see a huge disconnect between those that have been or are in the actual conflict and we at home that have never been there. Yes, I know there are shoot 'em up soldiers, but, so many seem to see how diplomacy would just go farther in bringing positive change- earning trust of the people that are in the middle of so much chaos and that have had any number of agressors throughout time in their backyards. I view bin Laden as a sociopathic religious zealot with the same kind of charisma as people like Hitler. One like so many that has followers that have such desperate circumstances that I know I cannot begin to understand. |
|
|
|