School costs and parent involvement

[DapperButch]

Ok, so I was about to hit submit to a post in the "what is on your mind" thread, but realized that maybe it would get lost in the shuffle and the parenting subforum may be a more suitable place.

Please expand on this topic in any way you might like. Maybe people want to talk about school costs in general or parent involvement in general. But this is what was specifically "on my mind"...


So copy/pasting:

One thing I have noticed from talking to parents is that it seems like there are higher and higher expectations in school on the "projects" kids have to do. Like crazy high...out of their age range, so the parents have to do it.

Also, a lot of these projects seem to cost a lot of money for the supplies.

So, "what is on my mind is":

1) My client was telling me about this intense project that her 3rd grader had to do...seemed more fitting for a 7th grader to do. There is NO WAY that she could have done this project without a parent. What do the kids do who don't have parents that want to help them? Just fail?

2) Some of the projects now a days seem to include a lot of supplies that cost money. What do kids do if they have parents who can't afford these supplies? What about the kids whose parents have the money, but aren't willing to go to the craft store to get said supplies b/c they are just parents who don't care?

I went to public school. As I recall, the teachers always had available any supplies that were needed for projects if your parents couldn't buy it for you. And it wasn't expensive stuff. At all. A couple of bucks and one or two projects a year. And the projects were things that weren't outside of a kids ability level and they could do the projects on their own. Things seem to have changed.

What are these unlucky kids doing if they have a parent who won't help with a project or won't or can't purchase supplies? Are teachers "in tune" to these kids and their needs do ya think?

[diamondrose]

I realize I may be extending out from the orginal topic with my point I am going to bring forth... In relation to what you made mention to, one thing that boggles my mind about my college is about 95% of the classes at my school are on a computer. Even class taught subjects such as Math or English requires assignments to be turned in online. Just as parents of school students can't always afford supplies, not everyone has the ability to own a computer and have the convience of the internet. I realize there are ways around it by using school computers and so forth, but I think there should be an option of online or traditional classroom classes

[cuddlyfemme]

My sister is a 3rd grade school teacher and has said many times how she's gone out and bought supplies for the kids who's parents can't afford it or just don't care. As for the projects, its age appropriate...i think it depends on the teacher

[Blade]

Not sure my thoughts on this I might have to come back and change my mind. I know that scholastically kids these days on average are smarter than I was at their same age, I was an average student. I've seen things my niece has had for projects and I go OMG wonder how her friend so and so is doing this project with no computer no adult or older sibling to help. I agree Dapper when I was in school it seemed everything you would need was at school for the most part except maybe for a book report or science project or something like that. I remember writing good papers and making good grades on papers in high school but I also remember you got extra credit if it was typed. WHAT? I didn't have a typewriter at home.

So I really don't know how under privileged kids get by any more in school with their projects, especially like you mentioned if they need to use the computer and don't have one at home. I know we have some teachers here on the site maybe they have some idea's.

Someone mentioned college. College is expensive enough with tuition, books, housing etc. I know that many colleges now require incoming students to have a certain so and so this and that kind of computer with this and such programs and speed and blah blah blah.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

1) My client was telling me about this intense project that her 3rd grader had to do...seemed more fitting for a 7th grader to do. There is NO WAY that she could have done this project without a parent. What do the kids do who don't have parents that want to help them? Just fail?

as both a parent and child development professional, i'm horrified at the way our educational system is going. there is what is called a "push down" curriculum in which children are expected to learn things earlier and earlier, BEFORE they are developmentally ready. often people making the policies, the people implementing them, as well as the teachers do not have any child development training. now to make things worse this no child left behind crap, the pressure is really on the teachers children are getting less and less of what they need in elementary school social skills, creative development, problem-solving, conflict resolution skills, physical activity, etc, and are instead overloaded with academics that they aren't ready for. the result has not been higher test scores and in some of the poorer schools the resulting decrease in funding has been devastating. the trend is to push it down even further so that children in preschool are going to start learning academics..it's ridiculous. so to answer your question, it probably was above the child's level and the teacher's reason for doing it probably had to do with required curriculum, and yes, at most schools due to the lack of funding and available resources, the child without parental help (for whatever reason, be it a language barrier, lack of resources, time and energy or simply disinterest) that child would probably fail. ...on the other hand, what are the children who's parent's complete the project for them getting out of it? besides a passing grade?

[Soon]

Canadian (and some other countries) education systems are vastly different--equal funding for all students regardless of location or neighbourhood or whatever.

No teacher here (my Canadian city) would dream of creating an assignment that is not accessible to all students--regardless of socio-economic status.

We would be called to the table if we assigned such a thing.


However, like I said, we have equal funding for all students--regardless of where families reside--they have quality education.


ETA: So, no, there would be no assignments that some kids could *afford* and others could not.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Canadian (and some other countries) education systems are vastly different--equal funding for all students regardless of location or neighbourhood or whatever.

No teacher here (my Canadian city) would dream of creating an assignment that is not accessible to all students--regardless of socio-economic status.

We would be called to the table if we assigned such a thing.


However, like I said, we have equal funding for all students--regardless of where families reside--they have quality education.


ETA: So, no, there would be no assignments that some kids could *afford* and others could not.

gotta say i'm feelin a lil jealous right now... that is not the way the us distributes $$.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by greeneyedgrrl

gotta say i'm feelin a lil jealous right now... that is not the way the us distributes $$.

That is because they (GOP and FOX News and their minions etc) label how we do it as SOCIALISM!!!!

[greeneyedgrrl]

sometimes i fantasize about moving there... too bad i don't have family there anymore.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Canadian (and some other countries) education systems are vastly different--equal funding for all students regardless of location or neighbourhood or whatever.

No teacher here (my Canadian city) would dream of creating an assignment that is not accessible to all students--regardless of socio-economic status.

We would be called to the table if we assigned such a thing.


However, like I said, we have equal funding for all students--regardless of where families reside--they have quality education.


ETA: So, no, there would be no assignments that some kids could *afford* and others could not.

I still don't understand why the US can't have equal funding. Does anyone know why the unequal system of funding schools is still in effect?

M

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I still don't understand why the US can't have equal funding. Does anyone know why the unequal system of funding schools is still in effect?

M

I'm not sure if this is true in all states, but when I was in NY the schools received the majority of their funding from local property taxes. So, affluent area, high taxes, well funded schools and the opposite also the case.

Not saying it has to be that way...just that it would take a major restructuring of how schools are funded...and an awful lot of political will to do so.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not sure if this is true in all states, but when I was in NY the schools received the majority of their funding from local property taxes. So, affluent area, high taxes, well funded schools and the opposite also the case.

Not saying it has to be that way...just that it would take a major restructuring of how schools are funded...and an awful lot of political will to do so.

This is very true in CA- educational funding based upon property taxes. And with NCLB and its continuation under Obama, federal education funds are based upon the whole testing system.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not sure if this is true in all states, but when I was in NY the schools received the majority of their funding from local property taxes. So, affluent area, high taxes, well funded schools and the opposite also the case.

Not saying it has to be that way...just that it would take a major restructuring of how schools are funded...and an awful lot of political will to do so.

Jo - in every town I have lived in the property tax system is used so I'm guessing this system is used throughout most of the United States. I'm just wondering why funds couldn't be collected and placed in one big state pot, for example, and then distributed to schools based on enrollment. For example, a set amount per student. This way schools get equal funds. Funding is not based on the community property levels but on number of students enrolled. I've never seen it as a difficult change to make. I see it more as a choice to continue the funding this way because it benefits certain groups of people.

M

[cane]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Canadian (and some other countries) education systems are vastly different--equal funding for all students regardless of location or neighbourhood or whatever.

No teacher here (my Canadian city) would dream of creating an assignment that is not accessible to all students--regardless of socio-economic status.

We would be called to the table if we assigned such a thing.


However, like I said, we have equal funding for all students--regardless of where families reside--they have quality education.


ETA: So, no, there would be no assignments that some kids could *afford* and others could not.

I guess the Swedish system is much like the Canadian then, equal funding for everybody.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ok, so I was about to hit submit to a post in the "what is on your mind" thread, but realized that maybe it would get lost in the shuffle and the parenting subforum may be a more suitable place.

Please expand on this topic in any way you might like. Maybe people want to talk about school costs in general or parent involvement in general. But this is what was specifically "on my mind"...


So copy/pasting:

One thing I have noticed from talking to parents is that it seems like there are higher and higher expectations in school on the "projects" kids have to do. Like crazy high...out of their age range, so the parents have to do it.

Also, a lot of these projects seem to cost a lot of money for the supplies.

So, "what is on my mind is":

1) My client was telling me about this intense project that her 3rd grader had to do...seemed more fitting for a 7th grader to do. There is NO WAY that she could have done this project without a parent. What do the kids do who don't have parents that want to help them? Just fail?

2) Some of the projects now a days seem to include a lot of supplies that cost money. What do kids do if they have parents who can't afford these supplies? What about the kids whose parents have the money, but aren't willing to go to the craft store to get said supplies b/c they are just parents who don't care?

I went to public school. As I recall, the teachers always had available any supplies that were needed for projects if your parents couldn't buy it for you. And it wasn't expensive stuff. At all. A couple of bucks and one or two projects a year. And the projects were things that weren't outside of a kids ability level and they could do the projects on their own. Things seem to have changed.

What are these unlucky kids doing if they have a parent who won't help with a project or won't or can't purchase supplies? Are teachers "in tune" to these kids and their needs do ya think?

Much of the time, it isn't the teacher being out of tune with this- it is what has been legislated in the US with things like "No Child Left Behind" which has been extended by the Obama administration. All has become based upon schools competing for federal funding and the districts that traditionally have had a higher tax base usually wins out. So, the developmental, financial and social aspects of students are just lost. In some schools, teachers get a financial bonus for higher test scores on national achievement tests.

Regular classroom teachers have been pushed in many ways to leave child development behind or lose their jobs. The politicalization of education in the US has rendered it out of touch with the real variables that enable students to learn. And makes teachers robots.

The whole damn system is out of touch with kids and their families.

The other thing that bothers me is that there is just not enough available in apprentice and trades programs for students. Vocational education is pushed back while college is pushed ahead as the only way someone can earn a living. Yet, how can a house be built without carpenters, plumbers, electricians? What about scientific glass technicians- they produce the test tubes and beakers used in experiments?! Who builds roads? The list goes on.

I am very thankful for having the opportunity to go to college and grad school. However, The US educational system needs to widen its vision and provide educational opportunities for all of its students including those that want to develop skills in non-college bound types of employment. And stop this crazy testing!!

[Martina]

This stuff was going on long before NCLB. It wasn't that way when i was in school, but i remember friends who had their kids in Ann Arbor schools who were supposed to pony up for things all the time. i recall a minor example -- students were supposed to buy green t-shirts for a field trip so that the kids could be kept track of. My co-worker was poor and had no time to go out shopping on the spur of the moment etc.

i don't teach elementary, but we sure don't assume that there is support at home for projects. i am not sure how this got started. A friend of mine whose kids are in Ann Arbor schools is constantly working on projects. She has the money and the time, but is it even good for her sons?

Another friend, her son calls from COLLEGE for help, sometimes on deadline. The kid is a junior. It's mind-boggling to me.

Another friend is a dean of a small college, and she says for some years colleges -- and professors -- have had many more parents calling to intervene when their kids are failing a class etc. Amazing.

So i think parents are a part of the problem. i think they are afraid to allow their kids to fail or flounder. And it keeps upping the ante.

i also think this doesn't have anything to do with high stakes testing. If we were concentrating only on high stakes testing, there wouldn't be any projects at all. Project-based learning is great. It needs good curriculum, cooperation among staff and administration, and hard work on everyone's part. It should not require much parental involvement.

Parental pareticipation should be be about helping kids review and, if necessary, stay organized. The point of homework is building toward mastery. Sitting down with their kids, checking homework, helping kids with their planners, checking planners, staying up on what's happening in the classroom, and perhaps volunteering -- that's what parents should be doing. But they should not be going back to school themselves.

***begin rant***

i may sound a bit irritable here. But all the armchair folks who talk about what's wrong with the system, 90 percent of them don't have a clue. They read about it or listen to pundits on the radio, but they are not professionals. i understand that all of us are stakeholders. The students are our kids and future leaders. We all should care.

It's fine to read and research and have opinions. But i hear all the time, well i subbed fifteen years ago, and . . . Or my daughter teaches in San Jose, and she says. . . . i just want to say, get back to me when you are a fully credentialed experienced teacher, counselor or admin, when you have had real responsibility for children's educations.

It's not just the notion that teachers are the problem and that somehow "fixing" us would solve all the world's problems that i abhore. i think most of us here would object to that and object to the teacher-hating legislation that has been going on.

But the idea that every retired old fart at the donut shop feels qualified to tell you what is wrong -- at length -- with public schools is part of the problem -- the problem that is not respecting teachers and the mission of public school education.

Man, it makes me tired.

****end rant*****

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

This stuff was going on long before NCLB. It wasn't that way when i was in school, but i remember friends who had their kids in Ann Arbor schools who were supposed to pony up for things all the time. i recall a minor example -- students were supposed to buy green t-shirts for a field trip so that the kids could be kept track of. My co-worker was poor and had no time to go out shopping on the spur of the moment etc.

i don't teach elementary, but we sure don't assume that there is support at home for projects. i am not sure how this got started. A friend of mine whose kids are in Ann Arbor schools is constantly working on projects. She has the money and the time, but is it even good for her sons?

Another friend, her son calls from COLLEGE for help, sometimes on deadline. The kid is a junior. It's mind-boggling to me.

Another friend is a dean of a small college, and she says for some years colleges -- and professors -- have had many more parents calling to intervene when their kids are failing a class etc. Amazing.

So i think parents are a part of the problem. i think they are afraid to allow their kids to fail or flounder. And it keeps upping the ante.

i also think this doesn't have anything to do with high stakes testing. If we were concentrating only on high stakes testing, there wouldn't be any projects at all. Project-based learning is great. It needs good curriculum, cooperation among staff and administration, and hard work on everyone's part. It should not require much parental involvement.

Parental pareticipation should be be about helping kids review and, if necessary, stay organized. The point of homework is building toward mastery. Sitting down with their kids, checking homework, helping kids with their planners, checking planners, staying up on what's happening in the classroom, and perhaps volunteering -- that's what parents should be doing. But they should not be going back to school themselves.

***begin rant***

i may sound a bit irritable here. But all the armchair folks who talk about what's wrong with the system, 90 percent of them don't have a clue. They read about it or listen to pundits on the radio, but they are not professionals. i understand that all of us are stakeholders. The students are our kids and future leaders. We all should care.

It's fine to read and research and have opinions. But i hear all the time, well i subbed fifteen years ago, and . . . Or my daughter teaches in San Jose, and she says. . . . i just want to say, get back to me when you are a fully credentialed experienced teacher, counselor or admin, when you have had real responsibility for children's educations.

It's not just the notion that teachers are the problem and that somehow "fixing" us would solve all the world's problems that i abhore. i think most of us here would object to that and object to the teacher-hating legislation that has been going on.

But the idea that every retired old fart at the donut shop feels qualified to tell you what is wrong -- at length -- with public schools is part of the problem -- the problem that is not respecting teachers and the mission of public school education.

Man, it makes me tired.

****end rant*****

Oh no! I think I am part of the problem! But I am okay with that. I work full time and do not have the opportunity to volunteer in the classroom or much at all.

We just finished a super fun project on birds. This was the culmination of a year of study for my daughter's third grade class. We had to make a nest for a Northern Pygmy Owl. My daughter came up with the concept and picked out the supplies at the store. I did help and so did Grandma because my daughter loves when we all do crafts together. It was so fun!! A hot glue gun was involved and so my Mom and I did that and burned ourselves! We made homemade clay eggs and got twigs by walking on the street and collecting them. My daughter came up with the construction of the tree we had to make and then told me how to assemble it.

I don't know. I don't think this was necessarily too difficult for her age. I really appreciate the projects where I get to help. It lets me see what she is doing and learning and it is an opportunity for us to do something together. I dropped her off really early and actually came in to school and looked at the other nests kids had made and talked to her teacher and it was good.

I think there is a happy medium between doing the project for your child and doing it together. I am grateful for the opportunity. I am also lucky and privileged to have the time to help her I know.

[Martina]

Awwww. That's wonderful! It sounds like it was the best of both for her -- she learned a lot and got to do something with Mom and Grandma.

LOL re the gluegun. i wouldn't put one of those in the hands of a kid either, BUT in reality their young hands are often more dextrous than our own.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Oh no! I think I am part of the problem! But I am okay with that. I work full time and do not have the opportunity to volunteer in the classroom or much at all.

We just finished a super fun project on birds. This was the culmination of a year of study for my daughter's third grade class. We had to make a nest for a Northern Pygmy Owl. My daughter came up with the concept and picked out the supplies at the store. I did help and so did Grandma because my daughter loves when we all do crafts together. It was so fun!! A hot glue gun was involved and so my Mom and I did that and burned ourselves! We made homemade clay eggs and got twigs by walking on the street and collecting them. My daughter came up with the construction of the tree we had to make and then told me how to assemble it.

I don't know. I don't think this was necessarily too difficult for her age. I really appreciate the projects where I get to help. It lets me see what she is doing and learning and it is an opportunity for us to do something together. I dropped her off really early and actually came in to school and looked at the other nests kids had made and talked to her teacher and it was good.

I think there is a happy medium between doing the project for your child and doing it together. I am grateful for the opportunity. I am also lucky and privileged to have the time to help her I know.

[AtLast]

Having the time and energy for parents is difficult at times. Especially single parents. Put a lack of resources in the mix and it is tougher.

I am very happy that I was with a LT partner when I took over parenting for my son. She also joined in projects. Although, he was in HS at the time. That interaction is valuable.

I do, however, feel that teachers, especially those that are not parents themselves, may not get how hectic life is with kids and all of the things outside of school that takes a parent's time and energy having to do with their kids. With taking on parenthood, my whole internal structure as a teacher at that time changed- I saw and felt for myself some of the challenges parents had tried to explain to me that I really did not "get." Parents don't get to take a vacation from being a parent or go home to a home without kids after work.

I was lucky also that my son's Dad left a trust for his care and education. and as it turned out, things like therapy and extra help in academics as he has ADHD and perceptual neurologic problems that just could not be addressed in the shools available to him. There were no special education mandates at that time. Many parents do not have this kind of financial back-up at all. Many are trying to go on with their own higher education.

I have a bit of a problem when parents get blamed by teachers- even though I taught at the HS level, then community college and state universities- part time along with a full time therapy practice and the responsibility of a teen and later young adult getting through college. Be responsible for a child and them getting a good start in life and there are many fears that go along with this which are part of package.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by Martina

This stuff was going on long before NCLB. It wasn't that way when i was in school, but i remember friends who had their kids in Ann Arbor schools who were supposed to pony up for things all the time. i recall a minor example -- students were supposed to buy green t-shirts for a field trip so that the kids could be kept track of. My co-worker was poor and had no time to go out shopping on the spur of the moment etc.

i don't teach elementary, but we sure don't assume that there is support at home for projects. i am not sure how this got started. A friend of mine whose kids are in Ann Arbor schools is constantly working on projects. She has the money and the time, but is it even good for her sons?

Another friend, her son calls from COLLEGE for help, sometimes on deadline. The kid is a junior. It's mind-boggling to me.

Another friend is a dean of a small college, and she says for some years colleges -- and professors -- have had many more parents calling to intervene when their kids are failing a class etc. Amazing.

So i think parents are a part of the problem. i think they are afraid to allow their kids to fail or flounder. And it keeps upping the ante.

i also think this doesn't have anything to do with high stakes testing. If we were concentrating only on high stakes testing, there wouldn't be any projects at all. Project-based learning is great. It needs good curriculum, cooperation among staff and administration, and hard work on everyone's part. It should not require much parental involvement.

Parental pareticipation should be be about helping kids review and, if necessary, stay organized. The point of homework is building toward mastery. Sitting down with their kids, checking homework, helping kids with their planners, checking planners, staying up on what's happening in the classroom, and perhaps volunteering -- that's what parents should be doing. But they should not be going back to school themselves.

***begin rant***

i may sound a bit irritable here. But all the armchair folks who talk about what's wrong with the system, 90 percent of them don't have a clue. They read about it or listen to pundits on the radio, but they are not professionals. i understand that all of us are stakeholders. The students are our kids and future leaders. We all should care.

It's fine to read and research and have opinions. But i hear all the time, well i subbed fifteen years ago, and . . . Or my daughter teaches in San Jose, and she says. . . . i just want to say, get back to me when you are a fully credentialed experienced teacher, counselor or admin, when you have had real responsibility for children's educations.

It's not just the notion that teachers are the problem and that somehow "fixing" us would solve all the world's problems that i abhore. i think most of us here would object to that and object to the teacher-hating legislation that has been going on.

But the idea that every retired old fart at the donut shop feels qualified to tell you what is wrong -- at length -- with public schools is part of the problem -- the problem that is not respecting teachers and the mission of public school education.

Man, it makes me tired.

****end rant*****

Totally agree. Teachers are just struggling to hold on to their jobs any more and many are out of work and have advanced degrees, training and experience. Teachers aren't allowed to teach and use their experience and training. They are told what to teach, how to teach and what will happen if the test scores don't meet requirements. This isn't just happening in public schools it is happening in colleges too. College instructors are losing control of their classrooms, the curriculum, even their syllabi. I'll get started on the loss of tenure and reliance on a college workforce of underemployed and underpaid adjunct faculty who work from class contract to class contract with no health benefits soon But the two are linked. As you said, it is the politicizing of education and it extends from kindergarten through college.

Melissa