Islam & the Muslim faith- banishing myths

[AtLast]

Like so many things for me, I find that I learn by others and what they can show me with ideas and resources. I am deeply concerned about what is going on in the US (the world?) about Islam and what it means to be Muslim.

Of course I have problems with how women are treated within this realm. Yet, I see many working to deal with these issues. I know that even as a person that has a spiritual life, I do have difficulty with any kind of blind faith. I also know that I have much to learn about both Islam and the Muslim faith even if I fall on the liberal, more progrssive side of things politically.

This isn't an area I feel I know very much about. With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.

[Soft*Silver]

my daughter dated someone who was Muslim. She read up on the religion and asked me to do the same. Like most religions, there are things I liked and things I didnt. I too would love to know more about it. I try very hard not to hold the entire faith of one religion agains the zealots of it. Including and especially Christianity.

Thanks for starting this, ALH

[MsMerrick]

Where should I start ?
Islam, is, like Judaism and Christianity, based on the patriarchy of Abraham, accepts the Old Testament, and the New with the exception that Islam doesn't believe Jesus ( or anyone) is other than human. They accept Jesus as a prophet , and consider the word of God further explained by Muhammad, the next Prophet.
I know a lot more but perhaps that's the simplest part , that so many people don't seem to understand. Islam is as much a Monotheistic Faith, part of the same heritage as Judaism and Christianity.
Its a lineage, with in the same way that Christianity parts with Judaism, Islam parts with Christianity, and so it goes.
I know a lot more so ask a question
Having been brought up an Atheist, my interest in Religion, has been the same across the board.
So, perhaps I have spoken to a myth ? That Islam is some "wierd" Mystic thing, very different from Judaic-Christianity. It is not. It is part of teh same Mono Theistic lineage

[Laerkin]

What a delightful idea for a thread. The one thing our society could use is some good, old-fashioned education...listening instead of talking.

I don't know much other than the basics that I learned in my World Religion courses my sophomore year of college. As MsMerrick said, it's one of the Big Three based on the patriarchy of Abraham.

I've read small bits and pieces of the Koran...like the Bible, a fascinating book if read from a scholarly perspective. There are many passages of peace and beauty, and also passages of antiquated beliefs and laws. Hell, the Bible has more violence and condoned murder and slavery than pretty much any other religious text in history.

Like you, AtLastHome, the manner in which the Islamic countries have come to treat women is difficult to swallow. But, my small experiences with the faith tell me that these attitudes are based largely on a fairly recent conservative shift that is based on fear (much like we're seeing here in the U.S. with the Conservative right-wingers).

One other thing I know - back in ancient times while 60% of Europe was dying in the Dark Ages because of their total lack of education, technology, and hygiene, the Islamic areas were thriving. They had the first universities that allowed women, they invented a checking system for making payments far from home using advanced banking methods, and they had a clean and very modern civilization. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way some men felt threatened and, with their interpretation of God and religion, took power and the civilization started changing into what we have now - some modern, forward-thinking folks and some stalwarts (just like here).

I hope we have a few actively practicing Muslims in the community that can enlighten us.

There is an Islamic center about a mile from my home. It's nearly invisible and fairly hidden (only natural here in the Bible belt of the South), but my Religion professor encouraged us to check it out. I am very tempted to contact them just so I can educate myself a little more about their culture, ideology, regular practices, etc. Why not? I wouldn't hesitate to walk into a church to learn, right?

Looking forward to more dialog and less fear!

[Toughy]

like Merrick said..........

Judaism, Christianity, Islam............same God.....same basic mythology..........Islam accepts all the prophets (they see Jesus as a prophet....a human being only) of the previous 2 religions based on the single God of Abraham. Funny thing.......Judaism and Christianity don't accept the prophet Muhammad.

......and the ancient tribal wars continue today under the same God of Abraham........based on the idea of my God is really the right God of the 3 religions of the patriarchy.......

what year is it???

[Rook]

Hi,
I don't have a Degree in Islamic Studies *yet*, but I was raised muslim, Salaf..
I won't pretend to know it all or be the voice of authority, since my mother happily snuck behind my fathers back continuously so I could have a wealth of knowledge in other Religions/Covens so I could make a decision {if any} later in Life...
Any mistakes I make, I will correct if I can.

That being said,
Practicing Muslims everywhere are observing Ramadan at Press time of this Reply, it will Continue until September 8th.
Considering the Islamic Calendar is Lunar, the dates of different "Holidays" {there's not many} tend to rotate, I loved when it all landed in December..
It's easier to Fast/pray in cool weather {shorter days too}...
During the Last Week of Ramadan, devout Muslims will actually Camp out in their Respective Mosques..
There's food to break fast at sunset, I used to eat Figs , Dates and Milk dabbed with Honey to break Fasting.
All Muslims involved pray until the wee hours before Dawn, in hopes of Lailat ul-Kadr..The specific night The Prophet Mohammed {p.b.u.h} received the First verses of the Qu'ran, al-Fatiha,

Qu'ran 97 verses 1-5

In the Name of Allah, the Benevolent, the Merciful.

1 Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.
2 Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!
3 The Night of Power has more blessings than a thousand months.
4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
5 (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.

Women are, of course, encouraged to stay home, but it is not expressly forbidden for them to spend this time at the Mosque,
The reason for this is, if she's a Mother, her children will need tending {some hire babysitters} so, rather than have the burden of worrying over the children instead of praying, they're "excused", they do pray, and it's well known, you do not need a Mosque to pray..
The only time it's expressly forbidden for a woman to attend is if she's having her period.
Can't touch the Qu'ran either.
Can't have sex even after sunset until she's "done".
Mind you, there are Feminist Muslims, and even they can see the logic for the most part.
Some will ....and I've witnessed this...take their kids with them, to participate.
Even with a daycare, it was slightly distracting, and that is upsetting to some, because they must concentrate on Prayer and Services.
Some Mosques allow 'mingling', others don't...For the same reason Orthodox Jews don't allow women in specific parts of the synagogue {and the Western Wall}.
Personally, I will choose a segregated congregation.
The purpose of the segregation, again...Modesty , for Both..
Not simply because they're Misogynistic Patriarchal piggies....
In fact, if a gentleman accidentally wanders into the womens area {or a teenage boy is dared}, if the ladies are high strung about modesty {and they usually are}, it'll resemble a chicken coop with a Fox inside...
Best comparison I can come up with.

I do approve the construction of the Mosque near Ground Zero {I know, different thread}, it's a slap in the face to all Extremist/Fanatic/Delusional who want to preach Intolerance, Hatred towards the "Devil Amrikans" and claim the U.S. is anti-Islam...
I was actually stunned when I visited Memphis, Tenn. that there was a Madrassah {Islamic School}...

The Prophet Mohammed{p.b.u.h}, is Universally considered {within Islam anyways} as The Seal of the Prophets..
Many muslims will point out, Muslims do not worship the Prophet, but rather accord him with all the Due respect of a Prophet of G-d.
Muslims also believe that Islam is Not new not by a long shot, it was merely...rekindled.
The Bible, Torah/Talmud are also to be respected..
After all, same G-d, same Message {mostly}, different Language...

G-d Almighty = English, Hashem =Judaic, Allah = arabic
Some might dispute this, but if you find an unbiased Arabic Studies/Religious Studies Professor, unless they're atheist and have a chip on their shoulder, oftentimes they'll say the same.

What Laerkin said is true...
Whether you believe it or not, Feminism took place within Islam well before the suffragist movement, that a woman is Niqabi, because of supposed family pressures?
In some case, yes..Particularly in Countries where they were forced into it {Afghanistan}..
Elsewhere, quite a few actually Choose to wear Veils, I've witnessed fights because the parents were Hanafi, and the daughters ascribed to Hanbali..
Honestly, if a Nun/Monk can wear veils, and at some Convents live Cloistered, why not a Muslim?...
The Prophet eliminated infanticide of girls..
Hygienic speaking, yeah Muslims had the upper hand based on wash ritual...
Before every prayer, especially the primary 5 {yes there's more}, hands, face, mouth & feet must be washed..
After sex, birth and Menses, a shower is mandatory {preferably Alone, or it defeats the purpose} Like a Mikvah..
you don't step into a mosque if u haven't {Muslims anyways}.
A proper sign of respect to the Mosque visited, women wear a loose veil {if you're non muslim}, gentleman respect the womens area and stay out, please take off shoes.Trust me, the carpets are Cleam {unless u are visiting a Poor towns Mosque, and even then, they'll take care of the mosque before anything else.

Another "popular" issue would be Polygamy...
Yes, it's permitted, but with such astonishingly tight guidelines, nowadays, it's not worth the headache, unless you're flithy rich and can provide EQUALLY in Every way to all your wives..
If you can't, u better stay with 1, work from there.

As much as I might piss off a few Jewish friends {I don't mean to}
As a kid, I used to marvel at so many similarities orthodox Islam + orthodox Judaism have...
When I was told of the conflict between Ibrahim's wife and servant, I was mesmerized and pointed out
"So, they're technically brothers?....
Youth -shrug-

"In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2)

The Prophet said: "God has forbidden for you to be undutiful to your mothers." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

"And revere the wombs that bore you, for God is ever watchful over you." (Qu'ran 4:1)

A man once asked the Prophet to whom he should show the most kindness. The Prophet replied: "Your mother, next your mother, next your mother, and then your father." (Sunan of Abu-Dawood)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by softness

my daughter dated someone who was Muslim. She read up on the religion and asked me to do the same. Like most religions, there are things I liked and things I didnt. I too would love to know more about it. I try very hard not to hold the entire faith of one religion agains the zealots of it. Including and especially Christianity.

Thanks for starting this, ALH

Yup, zealots of any kind usually put a whole lot of garbage out there! What Laerkin brings about the development of factions today with the subjegation of women is very interesting.

Toughy's info on the non acceptance of Muhammed by Christianity actually slipped my mind. This is an important distinction to think about when I see those zealots on TV bashing the Muslim faith!

[Miss Scarlett]

I am so sick and tired of the "anti- not affluent English speaking straight conservative white christian" people out there and their push to rid the US of anyone/thing not exactly like them. They venomously spew their vitriolic anger and bombastic rhetoric at every opportunity for the sole purpose of promoting their agenda by fear mongering leading to, among other things, a growing pattern of Islamophobia and Hispanophobia in the US.

These people are dangerous. They rely on the ignorance of their audience - a group that is largely made up of older adults who for some reason believe everything they are told in the media, read online or in an email chain letter.

History does repeat itself and if this is allowed to continue to gain momentum it will only be a matter of time before they start rounding up people and segregating them in designated areas or worse...

[Glenn]

This is what is being taught in conservative christian theological seminarys that is causing derision among Christians and Moslems:

Jesus- Died and rose from the dead.
Muhammad- Dies and stays dead.
Jesus-Never fought.
Muhammad- Fought many many times.
Jesus- When Jesus heard from God he went to the desert to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness (Mark 1:14-15}
Muhammed- Was uncertain and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)
Jesus- Claimed ti be God as well as man
Muhammed- Claimed to be a man.
Jesus- Instructions received from God the Father.
Muhammed- From an angel.
Jesus- Never killed anyone.
Muhammed- Killed many.
Jesus- Had the power to take life, but never did. He restored it.
Muhammed- Had the power to take it, but never restored it.
Jesus-Never married.
Muhammad- Had over 20 wives including a 9 year old girl.
Jesus- Spoke well of womwn.
Muhammad-Said women were one half as smart as men(Hadith3:826;2:541) That the majority in hell would be women (Had 1:28,301, 2:161;7:124) That women could be mortgaged .

[lipstixgal]

I have Muslims friends and they are alright, bright and friendly I see nothing wrong with being a Muslim..I'm Jewish and we are not liked by any stretch of the means so who am I to judge them!! But it is interesting to see the similarities between Muslim religion and the Jewish religion!!

[Glenn]

With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.[/QUOTE]

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

[Jude]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it sufficient to say that there is no faith in the history of mankind of this planet as replete with atrocity and horror as what has been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ? Nothing even comes in as a close second.

Here is a tidbit unknown to most people. Islam was known to the indigenous Americans long before Columbus and his crew even considered setting sail. Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed. Names such as Tallahassee (FL) are straight out of the Arabic. The first European ships sailing into the West Indies glided past mosques.

I don't like to offer links, but suggest anyone who wishes to do so try a Google search simply using the words: Native American and Islam or Muslim.

Looking at native religion as it evolved, glimpses of Islam are very apparent. Particularly clear is the Native American's great respect for life and the land. Hope this is on interest to somebody.

Well, we got the First Americans when we arrived and murdered most of them. Guess we're going to get them again on a second round.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Jude

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

Isn't it sufficient to say that there is no faith in the history of mankind of this planet as replete with atrocity and horror as what has been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ? Nothing even comes in as a close second.

Here is a tidbit unknown to most people. Islam was known to the indigenous Americans long before Columbus and his crew even considered setting sail. Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed. Names such as Tallahassee (FL) are straight out of the Arabic. The first European ships sailing into the West Indies glided past mosques.

I don't like to offer links, but suggest anyone who wishes to do so try a Google search simply using the words: Native American and Islam or Muslim.

Looking at native religion as it evolved, glimpses of Islam are very apparent. Particularly clear is the Native American's great respect for life and the land. Hope this is on interest to somebody.

Well, we got the First Americans when we arrived and murdered most of them. Guess we're going to get them again on a second round.

Kept reading through the thread and I really don't understand where you're getting this information. You've not given any sources for your information, and I've never read any of the sort. It all seems very outlandish.

I took the liberty of looking up the etymology of Tallahassee and discovered that it means "tribal town" or "old town" in the Creek language, which has no relation to any Arab languages.

I don't pretend to be any kind of expert on North or South American Aboriginal spirituality, but I have done a decent amount of reading on Aboriginal shamanism and spirituality globally. I can't say I've ever read of anything suggesting that "Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed." That the first European ships glided past mosques in the West Indies is just beyond science fiction. Please provide a link to your info because I'm not sure I can suspend belief that far.

As for your info on Christian invasions of "Muslim lands" vs. Muslim invasions of "Christian lands"...again, seems to be the product of misinformation.

Some examples:

One of the first Christian vs. Muslim conflicts was the conquest of the Christian Iberian Peninsula (modern day Spain and Portugal) by the North African Umayyad dynasty; a Muslim dynasty. Muslims ruled over the Iberian Peninsula for the next 6-7 centuries until the "reconquista" that placed Christians back into power.

During that time Muslim forces repeatedly attempted to invade and conquer southern France, but were repeatedly pushed back by Christian Frankish forces and completely pulled out by the 10th century.

Greece: The Christian Byzantine (Greek) Empire stretched into Asia Minor/Anatolia until the recently Muslim Seljuk Turks began their invasions against the Byzantine Greeks. The Byzantine Emperor eventually appealed for help against Muslim Turkish invasions from western Christendom; the appeal that began the First Crusade. As I'm sure you know, what was once Christian Greek land is now modern day Turkey and probably the only remaining "Christian" lands still in "Muslim hands." The reason for this is likely due to Europe's history, which has resulted in a western world that tends to be more advanced in its military tactics and use of weaponry. Which does in no way detract any credit from the military tactics of other nations. The Mongolians and Seljuk Turks had absolutely amazing swarming cavalry tactics that I'm, personally, a huge fan of ...but at the end of the day (probably due to social circumstances rather than anything military) they did not manage to retain most of their conquered lands.

The truth is, Christian/Muslim hostility has had a long and complex history with precedence in a European/Middle Eastern conflict outdating Christianity in Europe and Islam in the Middle East.

I get the feeling that, with current global relations being what they are, many who oppose Arab oppression in western nations (and rightfully so, since I don't believe oppression should go unchecked) attempt to make it into a good vs. bad sort of deal. As though Muslims had no role in the initiation of the Crusades (which, in fact, their invasions into south-eastern Europe initiated) or any of the more recent conflicts. It turns into a Muslims/Arabs = Good, Christians/Westerners = Bad kind of equation that seems to sometimes lead to a weird kind of historical revisionism. The truth ain't so black and white and each side had a role to play in today's conflicts as well as those of the past.

[AtLast]

So, does anyone else think that the Muslim investigative panels going on in the US Congress are "witch-hunt" material?

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

So, does anyone else think that the Muslim investigative panels going on in the US Congress are "witch-hunt" material?

Joe McCarthy sound familiar? Lee Atwater?

It would be nice if they would actually take a hard look at homegrown USA terrorist who are not Muslim.....

[Jude]

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I sure didn't know this! WOW! And this is bringing a lot of linkages to mind to consider! Thanks.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Mongols. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I would love to see some references concerning Native Americans (NA) originating/descending from the people of eastern Mongolia and Manchuria. If memory serves this used to be taught, but now with mitochondrial DNA it's not true.

Of course Islam was known by the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Those 'heathen barbarian savages' from around the world knew how to sail and navigate the oceans.

Muhammad heard from Allah around 610CE and then started spreading the word. It's not surprising that NA knew of Islam before Columbus invaded the Americas

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I'm not so sure about that. It's been a while but the last I read (2008 or so) was that the population that became the natives of both North and South America arrived here ~12,000 BCE quite a bit before Islam. I have even read estimates going back as far as 40 - 50,000 BCE although there does not appear to be a great deal of evidence in support of it.

ALL indigenous Western Hemisphere populations are more closely related to one another than ANY of those populations are related to Siberian or East Asian populations. This strongly suggests a rather distant genetic split.



Cheers
Aj

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I find that highly improbable given that North American aboriginals crossed into modern day North America long before the creation of Judeo-Christian Islamic religions and long before the existence of Mongolia and the Mongolian invasions into eastern and central Europe, the Middle East and other Asiatic regions.

That said, yes they're related to other Eurasian/Asiatic groups populating northern Europe and northern and central Asia genetically, but that doesn't mean they have anything to do with the Mongols or had any contact with the Eurasian/Asiatic regions past the initial migration period.

And even if they had had contact with the Mongols of the European medieval period, that would have meant they would have been equally exposed to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and a number of other religions assimilated into the empire given that the Mongols (unlike other invaders) adopted some form of nearly every religion they came into contact with. That was one of the reasons the Mongols were so successful in their initial invasions, because instead of alienating or enslaving their conquered peoples, they would immediately assimilate them into their army and into their religious beliefs. This was arguably one of the causes of their demise as well.

So no, Aboriginal North/South Americans were not descended from the Mongols of the Mongolian Empire, nor did they have contact with Islam prior to colonisation as far as I've ever read.