Child Brides - Tradition or State Sanctioned Rape? - Page 2

Words · 04-10-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Its interesting though that the UK has the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe [although still much lower than the US). What are some of the theories for this? Is abortion/contraception covered by the NHS?

Rufus

What's going on now isn't so much a battle against teenage pregnancy - I rather think that the powers that be have given up on that one - but one against sexually transmitted diseases, especially chlamydia, with the condom being touted as the weapon of choice. Magazines, TV, radio, the ads are literally all over the place and I know from the conversations I had with my 18-year-old son that they are having an impact. I would imagine that in the old days, boys his age were afraid of getting a girl pregnant and it was that fear that motivated them to wear condoms. Now, on the other hand, it seems to be the fear of 'catching something' that motivates them to - as our beloved (not) Jeremy Kyle (the UK version of Jerry Springer) puts it so eloquently - ''put something on the end of it,'' which they're able to do fairly easily thanks to the fact that any male under the of 25 can go to his local sexual health clinic and apply for a card, the presenting of which entitles him to walk into any local pharmacy and request as many condoms as he requires. (I said ''any male'' but I'm not sure if there's a lower age limit - I'll have to check it out. Same re. legislation concerning abortion.)

What about in the States, anything similar there?

Words

Toughy · 04-10-2010, 05:35 PM

the only places I have ever seen free condoms is in most gay boy/leather bars..........and a few dyke bars....while I don't frequent straight bars, the rare times I have been in one there were no condoms anywhere or any info on safer sex.

I have no idea if free condoms are available on request in public schools........my guess is nope not gonna happen even in San Francisco..

Remember........in the US......Kansas teaches 'creation science' as a viable alternative to evolution in the public schools.....kids can opt out of 'sex education' everywhere.......public school textbooks in many places call this country a 'christian nation' and write Jefferson (the 2nd President) out of our textbooks along with LBJ, FDR, MLK and probably Obama in a few years.

Martina · 04-10-2010, 05:44 PM

They are not available in my school. We used to have a health clinic bus that stopped by once a month, and kids could get them from them. But they stopped coming by.

Rufusboi · 04-10-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Words

What's going on now isn't so much a battle against teenage pregnancy - I rather think that the powers that be have given up on that one - but one against sexually transmitted diseases, especially chlamydia, with the condom being touted as the weapon of choice. Magazines, TV, radio, the ads are literally all over the place and I know from the conversations I had with my 18-year-old son that they are having an impact. I would imagine that in the old days, boys his age were afraid of getting a girl pregnant and it was that fear that motivated them to wear condoms. Now, on the other hand, it seems to be the fear of 'catching something' that motivates them to - as our beloved (not) Jeremy Kyle (the UK version of Jerry Springer) puts it so eloquently - ''put something on the end of it,'' which they're able to do fairly easily thanks to the fact that any male under the of 25 can go to his local sexual health clinic and apply for a card, the presenting of which entitles him to walk into any local pharmacy and request as many condoms as he requires. (I said ''any male'' but I'm not sure if there's a lower age limit - I'll have to check it out. Same re. legislation concerning abortion.)

What about in the States, anything similar there?

Words

Free condoms, no. Condoms can be purchased just about anywhere, including gas stations and wal mart. Like some others said, I see them given out at gay bars and gay pride. Maybe planned parenthood clinics give them out for free, but I'm not sure. Possibly county health clinics perhaps, not sure though. Condoms in schools are pretty much a no no I think. Some schools won't even let the school nurse give any kind of contraceptive information out, let alone condoms.

But as for fighting STDs, I don't even remember the last time I saw a public health Ad on TV for AIDS let alone anything else. There was a lot of info on HPV for a while and then a big fuss over requiring girls to get the HPV vaccine (some stupid parents said it would encourage underage sex; I'm not sure how they linked an HPV vaccine to promoting sex but contortions of logic are not unusual).

Rufus

Toughy · 04-10-2010, 05:53 PM

Concerning the topic of this thread.........

I have absolutely no patience or rationalization for any culture/society/group/religion that refuses to allow girls and women (and boys and men) autonomy. Patriarchy is the scourge of this world and the root cause of racism, sexism, homophobia and war.

Like it or not..............monotheism is the root of this......the God of Abraham (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) is the root of patriarchy and all that entails.

No girl, boy, woman, or man should be bought or sold as chattel to another person in the form of marriage or servitude. Using religion/culture as the excuse is barbaric and must be stopped all over the world.

Corkey · 04-10-2010, 06:08 PM

I can safely say I agree with Toughy on point. Problem is that we as the abused and under represented are spinning our wheels. We can't make policy on religion in any other culture. Hell we can't even agree on the nature of religion here. It's a great ideal to espouse, and I'm fully behind it, but until all men have given up their privilege, I can see nothing changing.
All I can do as a citizen of the world is express my outrage, and give my support to those who can effect their own change.

Nat · 04-10-2010, 08:13 PM

I think when a child or adult is forced to have sex, it is rape. I think that when a child or adult is basically sold to another person, forced to be legally bound to that person, forced to have sex with that person, it is sexual slavery. If it were just a question of age of consent, I could go with cultural relativist arguments more easily. I'm glad the state of Texas took all those kids away from that polygamist cult that was marrying young girls off to adult men.

Hundreds of Yemeni women did show up outside Yemen's parliament to support a law stating the minimum age for girls to marry to be set at 17 (for girls) and 18 (for boys). linky

The statistics regardng sexual abuse/assault of children in the US vary, but it's in no way uncommon. People just don't have to marry their victims here to gain access to them.

Nat · 04-10-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toughy

Concerning the topic of this thread.........

I have absolutely no patience or rationalization for any culture/society/group/religion that refuses to allow girls and women (and boys and men) autonomy. Patriarchy is the scourge of this world and the root cause of racism, sexism, homophobia and war.

Like it or not..............monotheism is the root of this......the God of Abraham (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) is the root of patriarchy and all that entails.

No girl, boy, woman, or man should be bought or sold as chattel to another person in the form of marriage or servitude. Using religion/culture as the excuse is barbaric and must be stopped all over the world.

Agreed.

Agreed. I might also add that it's a specific type of monotheism involving the worshipping of a gendered male "father" god. I think even atheists and others who are non-monotheistic but who come from a monotheistic male-centered religious background (or from a culture where such religion is dominant) will still perpetuate the traditions of patriarchy unless they are for whatever reason dedicated feminists. It's not just religion though - it's everywhere. In every card deck, every chess game. It's built-in everywhere.

Agreed.

Corkey · 04-10-2010, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat

I think when a child or adult is forced to have sex, it is rape. I think that when a child or adult is basically sold to another person, forced to be legally bound to that person, forced to have sex with that person, it is sexual slavery. If it were just a question of age of consent, I could go with cultural relativist arguments more easily. I'm glad the state of Texas took all those kids away from that polygamist cult that was marrying young girls off to adult men.

Hundreds of Yemeni women did show up outside Yemen's parliament to support a law stating the minimum age for girls to marry to be set at 17 (for girls) and 18 (for boys). linky

The statistics regardng sexual abuse/assault of children in the US vary, but it's in no way uncommon. People just don't have to marry their victims here to gain access to them.

The children were given back, and the cult is still practicing. Our republic is no better than any other that permits this. For me, until we as a Nation can come at this problem with clean hands, we have no standing with other countries to prohibit what their culture does. Yes, I personally find it rape, abuse and disgusting inhuman behavior. Yet my personal beliefs hold no water in any other country. I am not a diplomat, and I have no standing to force my beliefs on another. I do not condone any of it.
Just my .02

IrishGrrl · 04-10-2010, 08:34 PM

Dusa,
Have you read the book.. "The purity myth"? Just finished it and it's amazing..heres a link..if you want, I'll send you mine.

Rish

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Purity-Myth-Americas-Obsession-Virginity/dp/1580052533"]Amazon.com: The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women (9781580052535): Jessica Valenti: Books[/ame]

Nat · 04-10-2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey

The children were given back, and the cult is still practicing. Our republic is no better than any other that permits this. For me, until we as a Nation can come at this problem with clean hands, we have no standing with other countries to prohibit what their culture does. Yes, I personally find it rape, abuse and disgusting inhuman behavior. Yet my personal beliefs hold no water in any other country. I am not a diplomat, and I have no standing to force my beliefs on another. I do not condone any of it.
Just my .02

Dangit - I was just reading about it but apparently the article was old. I didn't realize they were given back. Ugh. So yeah, the US sucks too obviously.

I think identifying injustice, oppression and abuse is really the easy part - especially easy if pointing fingers across oceans, religions and cultures. Working in support of equality, freedom, human rights - I think that's the harder part.

I don't know what really does "hold water" - even in this country - except money and maybe airtime. I think the chance of saving some other country's women from oppression is not nearly as good as the chance of supporting the women in one's own midst (or even one's self) who suffer from oppression, violence, poverty, self-oppression.

Toughy · 04-10-2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat

Agreed.

Agreed. I might also add that it's a specific type of monotheism involving the worshipping of a gendered male "father" god. I think even atheists and others who are non-monotheistic but who come from a monotheistic male-centered religious background (or from a culture where such religion is dominant) will still perpetuate the traditions of patriarchy unless they are for whatever reason dedicated feminists. It's not just religion though - it's everywhere. In every card deck, every chess game. It's built-in everywhere.

Agreed.

Agreed

Have you read Rianne Eisler's The Chalice and The Blade?.

I would love to live in a world that was neither patriarchal or matriarchal. In a partnership based culture rather than a competitive based culture.

Nat · 04-10-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toughy

Agreed

Have you read Rianne Eisler's The Chalice and The Blade?.

I would love to live in a world that was neither patriarchal or matriarchal. In a partnership based culture rather than a competitive based culture.

No I haven't, but I'd like to.

I would love to live in that world too.

Cyclopea · 04-11-2010, 12:52 AM

It will be interesting to see how things play out in Yemen re: child brides. Both pro and con sides have made very public protests in the last few weeks which I suppose has captured the attention of some international media, hence the article.
As to the question of tradition or state sanctioned rape I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I vote on the side of human rights, and find the courage of the Yemeni women bringing about this change very inspiring.

04-10-2010, 05:35 PM	#22
Toughy Senior Member How Do You Identify?: pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?: see above Relationship Status: independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 1,826 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,068 Thanked 7,656 Times in 1,522 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	the only places I have ever seen free condoms is in most gay boy/leather bars..........and a few dyke bars....while I don't frequent straight bars, the rare times I have been in one there were no condoms anywhere or any info on safer sex. I have no idea if free condoms are available on request in public schools........my guess is nope not gonna happen even in San Francisco.. Remember........in the US......Kansas teaches 'creation science' as a viable alternative to evolution in the public schools.....kids can opt out of 'sex education' everywhere.......public school textbooks in many places call this country a 'christian nation' and write Jefferson (the 2nd President) out of our textbooks along with LBJ, FDR, MLK and probably Obama in a few years. __________________ We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate www.butchfemmesocials.com/

04-10-2010, 05:53 PM	#25
Toughy Senior Member How Do You Identify?: pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?: see above Relationship Status: independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 1,826 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,068 Thanked 7,656 Times in 1,522 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Concerning the topic of this thread......... I have absolutely no patience or rationalization for any culture/society/group/religion that refuses to allow girls and women (and boys and men) autonomy. Patriarchy is the scourge of this world and the root cause of racism, sexism, homophobia and war. Like it or not..............monotheism is the root of this......the God of Abraham (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) is the root of patriarchy and all that entails. No girl, boy, woman, or man should be bought or sold as chattel to another person in the form of marriage or servitude. Using religion/culture as the excuse is barbaric and must be stopped all over the world. __________________ We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate www.butchfemmesocials.com/

04-10-2010, 06:08 PM	#26
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,299 Times in 6,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I can safely say I agree with Toughy on point. Problem is that we as the abused and under represented are spinning our wheels. We can't make policy on religion in any other culture. Hell we can't even agree on the nature of religion here. It's a great ideal to espouse, and I'm fully behind it, but until all men have given up their privilege, I can see nothing changing. All I can do as a citizen of the world is express my outrage, and give my support to those who can effect their own change. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

04-10-2010, 08:13 PM	#27
Nat Senior Member How Do You Identify?: bigender Preferred Pronoun?: whatevs Relationship Status: in a relationship Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tx Posts: 3,535 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,042 Thanked 13,992 Times in 2,594 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	I think when a child or adult is forced to have sex, it is rape. I think that when a child or adult is basically sold to another person, forced to be legally bound to that person, forced to have sex with that person, it is sexual slavery. If it were just a question of age of consent, I could go with cultural relativist arguments more easily. I'm glad the state of Texas took all those kids away from that polygamist cult that was marrying young girls off to adult men. Hundreds of Yemeni women did show up outside Yemen's parliament to support a law stating the minimum age for girls to marry to be set at 17 (for girls) and 18 (for boys). linky The statistics regardng sexual abuse/assault of children in the US vary, but it's in no way uncommon. People just don't have to marry their victims here to gain access to them. __________________ I'm a fountain of blood. In the shape of a girl. - Bjork What is to give light must endure burning. -Viktor Frankl

04-11-2010, 12:52 AM	#34
Cyclopea Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Lesbian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Exit Zero Posts: 1,267 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,694 Thanked 1,617 Times in 633 Posts Rep Power: 226199	It will be interesting to see how things play out in Yemen re: child brides. Both pro and con sides have made very public protests in the last few weeks which I suppose has captured the attention of some international media, hence the article. As to the question of tradition or state sanctioned rape I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I vote on the side of human rights, and find the courage of the Yemeni women bringing about this change very inspiring. __________________ http://forum.axishistory.com/images/...arious/eye.jpg

04-10-2010, 05:44 PM	#23
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,366 Times in 4,171 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	They are not available in my school. We used to have a health clinic bus that stopped by once a month, and kids could get them from them. But they stopped coming by.

04-10-2010, 08:34 PM	#30
IrishGrrl Member How Do You Identify?: Queer Femme Leatherdyke Preferred Pronoun?: She/her Relationship Status: In a relationship/non-monogamous Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 877 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 276 Thanked 1,209 Times in 366 Posts Rep Power: 2427287	Dusa, Have you read the book.. "The purity myth"? Just finished it and it's amazing..heres a link..if you want, I'll send you mine. Rish [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Purity-Myth-Americas-Obsession-Virginity/dp/1580052533"]Amazon.com: The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women (9781580052535): Jessica Valenti: Books[/ame]