Opinions

[The_Lady_Snow]

Posted at 10:59 AM ET, 05/10/2012
No celebration for this lesbian
By Lauren Taylor







I’m a progressive, out lesbian, but I’m not doing a happy dance aboutPresident Obama’s support for gay marriage.

Here’s the thing: I don’t think we (the country, the society) should be giving rights, privileges and protections to anyone — gay, straight, bisexual or other — based on their sexual or romantic relationships. I think most of the rights and privileges gay men and lesbians are seeking by pursuing marriage rights should be granted to human beings because they are human beings, whether or not they find one person they want to spend the rest of their lives with.

A few examples:

● Everyone should be able to designate who they want to be able to visit them in the hospital. Everyone should be able to take leave to care for a sick loved one.

● Everyone should have access to health insurance. If you’re self-employed, unemployed or work for a place that doesn’t provide health insurance, you shouldn’t need to have a romantic partner who has a job that provides health benefits to get coverage.

● If a couple with a child splits, married or not, all parents should be eligible for visitation and responsible for child support.

● Everyone who pays into Social Security should be able to list who is financially dependent on them and who should get benefits when they die. Our current system shortchanges any dependent who isn’t married to a wage earner.

What about single people? Are they less deserving of the legal protections couples get? Why should rights, privileges and protections be based on anyone’s ability to find “Mr. /Ms. Right” and maintain a sexual/romantic relationship? Do other kinds of relationships (like parent-child, or adult siblings, or single best friends who live together and rely on each other financially and emotionally) not deserve protection?

I don’t think we have to aspire to some narrow ideal of family/couplehood to deserve rights. We deserve rights because we’re human beings, not because we’re achieving some level of similarity to the heterosexual ideal.

So you might be surprised to hear that I also love the idea of marriage. I love the idea of commitment, of getting community and family support for a relationship, and of the accountability to that community and family. I think anyone who wants to should have a ceremony and make a commitment and throw a big party. But that shouldn’t affect whether they then get health insurance, or get to take time off to take a sick person to the doctor, or are able to sign a permission form for a field trip.

I’m not fighting for access to marriage, and I wish that wasn’t where the gay rights movement was putting most of its effort and resources. (Violence, housing, employment, education, anyone?) But (with apologies to Groucho Marx), if someone is trying to keep me out of this club, I want in. How dare anyone say that I don’t deserve access to marriage and all it brings? How dare they say I, and my relationships, aren’t good enough?

I’d just prefer that LGBTQ people be recognized and accepted for being human beings, period. And that all human beings, regardless of relationship status, are assured their rights. That’s why I’m not celebrating the president’s “evolution.”

[Soon]

Her wish to be recognized as a human being is great; however, there are thousands of LEGAL rights (that one cannot get w/personal contracts etc.)--that are enshrined at both the state and federal level--that are denied based on the inability to marry one's chosen partner.


They are not going to remove those legal and civil protections/rights for opposite sex couples, so marriage equality for all couples is the only answer.

[Luv]

lets just hope that B.O. is sincere ,and not just looking for votes with the election so near. I dont trust any politician..like I always say..time tell's all truth's

[Kobi]

Author raises some interesting points, even tho she seems all over the place.

"Rights" have never been simple things in the USA. Many groups have had to fight for them - native people, POC, women, immigrants etc. Difficult battles all challenging the status quo. Even when you "win" the battles, the wars never seem to end. Take the current GOP war on women as an example. Shouldnt have to be fighting that history all over again but we are.

Societies are weird human creations. Would be nice if all peoples (persons) were celebrated for merely being a people (person) and equal rights afforded to all on this basis. But, it doesnt work this way for a multitude of reasons.

Hopefully, we are evolving into something better. Process is kind of sucky tho because it depends on politicians whose motives are seldom pure and clear cut.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Luv

lets just hope that B.O. is sincere ,and not just looking for votes with the election so near. I dont trust any politician..like I always say..time tell's all truth's

He's looking for votes. He's had 3 and a half years to say what he said.

[Luv]

well he was under pressure after Biden said something,,took him 3 1/2 yrs too

[aishah]

i agree wholeheartedly. i'm frustrated for a lot of reasons.

* obama's statement doesn't actually mean anything concrete for queer folks. it's just a statement.
* the only reason he came out and said this now is because it's an election year.
* he's still allowing a civil rights issue to be treated as a states' rights issue, and as we saw in the civil rights movement, that does not work.
* so much of the money and work in our community goes towards this single issue, while we are experiencing violence, bullying, unemployment, incarceration, police brutality, etc. etc. etc.
* the people who will benefit most from passing gay marriage ( for example, upper-class white gays and lesbians who are seeking to be accepted as part of a heteronormative society) are not the most vulnerable people in our community who need our protection (for example, homeless youth, incarcerated trans* women of color, queer sex workers, etc.). and the people who DO need obama to speak out for them will never matter to him - or to any political candidate - because we will never be "normative" enough to be assimilated into mainstream heteronormative society. we can't donate enough money to win them a campaign with the gay voting bloc. we don't make for good poster children.

i love the idea of marriage, too, but i agree with the author that it's frustrating that we've put so much emphasis on gay marriage to the exclusion of getting rights for everyone that should not have to be distributed according to what the church and the state think of our relationships and families and how those institutions define us. and to the exclusion of caring about the other issues, many of them life or death, that are deeply affecting folks in our community.

edited to add: and allowing same-sex couples to marry does not equate to marriage equality for all people. it just equates to marriage equality for most monogamous heterosexual and homosexual people.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by aishah

<snip>
* so much of the money and work in our community goes towards this single issue, while we are experiencing violence, bullying, unemployment, incarceration, police brutality, etc. etc. etc.
* the people who will benefit most from passing gay marriage ( for example, upper-class white gays and lesbians who are seeking to be accepted as part of a heteronormative society) are not the most vulnerable people in our community who need our protection (for example, homeless youth, incarcerated trans* women of color, queer sex workers, etc.). and the people who DO need obama to speak out for them will never matter to him

New Rules Target Sexual Assault Epidemic Facing LGBT Inmates

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration's Department of Justice has released new rules to combat the epidemic of sexual assault in the nation’s prison system, a crisis that disproportionately affects LGBT inmates, as the agency specifically addressed Thursday.

[aishah]

^ okay, he is pretty awesome and i'm glad he keeps making me happy i voted for him

another thing that came to mind while i was at work yesterday is the gratitude piece...i think a lot of time folks think that when people are critical, we're being ungrateful, and that's bad. to me, i am grateful, but the emphasis that people place on gratitude in these baby steps is really...demoralizing sometimes. it is the government's job to protect the rights of minorities. these are my human and civil rights. we have been fighting to get them for decades. it reminds me of my experiences having to constantly couch accessibility needs in apologies, begging, pleading, etc. - when having access should (in my opinion at least) be a matter of fact issue. i understand that it makes us look bad to straight people if we're ungrateful for baby steps, and that can compromise the future of achieving more baby steps. but at the same time...i am frustrated that we have to beg, plead, and fall over ourselves thanking folks for rights that should be guaranteed to us and that straight people have had for centuries - and that we have had to fight like hell and sometimes die for.

this is what i think of when i think of gratitude and waiting.



(i must say i'm grateful for this thread and all the posts here though )

[Kätzchen]

There is such a wealth of opinion in our own community as well as in our own constellation of friends and family and certainly in terms of the community at large who are not a part of our own community here online. I’m at a place this morning where I can offer my own express opinion on the subject of marriage as framed by Lady Snow and others participating in the on-going discussion, currently at stake.

I have a ‘Love-Hate’ relationship with the subject of marriage.

I could offer a dossier of evidence culled via opinion in our own community, but I feel that offering my own dossier of opinion might add toward the discussion as it spirals and weaves throughout many social constructs prevalent in society today and hope that it adds toward the currency of Equity in terms of providing food for thought – not only for myself as I inspect my own attitudes that shape my own viewpoint on marriage but as I inspect my own system of beliefs that might keep me from seeing a much fuller and richer spectrum of available remedies we seek as a people who have little to no equity in a society that commits acts of hate upon women because we are the female of the species, but also, seemingly, because we are people who are not the Color of Water (reference to James McBride) or Indispensable (reference to Noam Chomsky) or because we seem to be saddled down with quotients of Emotional Labor (reference to Berkeley scholar: Hochschild, 1983 – The Managed Heart).

The three italicized references above speak to three social constructs prevalent in US society that seem to have more weight in social settings and provide for a glimpse into the culture of how women have been oppressed and dressed down for ages with lashes on our backs as proof of a culture (isomorphic by design) that hates on women 24/7 (et al).

I’ve mostly held a Minnepean sense of attitude (satirical by design) where it concerns marriage (Mikhail Baktin, Communication Theorist from Russia).

I believe that Miss Tick and Sparkle said it best, for me, where it concerns Marriage:

“…I think the shape of the hate and prejudice you experience twists your expectations…” Miss Tick.

“…I want my basic human and civil rights…” with the much important caveat, which speaks toward a more full spectrum issue that needs our full attention in ways that red flags seems to not get the attention it needs and deserves: “I want FULL LEGAL PARITY…” Sparkle.

I emphasized with all caps the part concerning “full legal parity” not to be taken as yelling but rather as the crucial piece to the stake at issue: the populace minority does not have full legal parity and in my express opinion, until the minority and undocumented minority are given full legal parity, we won’t be seeing much of any legal parity in the foreseealble future.
I say that because in one of my late graduate classes in Communication Law, we studied how Legal Eagles make crucial decisions at the level of The Supreme Court. Let me see if I can articulate what I want to say in the simplest terms possible because the situation is NOT distilled to a set of simple facts nor is it a situation, as we’ve seen for years now, that seems to have a solution that the majority opinion holders and voters can wrap their minds around. IF we can all influence change on any subject alone, THEN we must be willing to examine issues from the trajectory of, seemingly but not too terribly wise position of: The past is a predictor of the present (I forget which psychologist to reference for this analytical design/framework).

If we take that strand of thought for the moment, we can see how past issues have been handled from a standpoint that what has happened in the past has strongly influenced what transpires in the present. For example, one member of our community stated that in the past marriage between people of differing race was not tolerated socially and people were punished in legal fashion as well as socially, hence why after much social resistance and terrible acts of atrocity impacted the fabric of the American populace to wield a particular type of change that would afford people of color to marry people of no color. Being punished for being a person of color who is not a part of the overwhelming majority of people of no color not only caused suffering of great magnitude and lent toward a stripping of identity at social, cultural and political levels of life in America but also gave power to a people of minority status which helped change social, cultural and legal attitude. But that kiind of change did not happen overnight. It took almost a generation and a half or two for that kind of change to be found among the landscape of “The Free”. I say that with a dose of sarcasm with the impact of an unrelenting tidal wave of tsumani magnitude.

We’re not free at all in America.

We’re not free of prejucial actions and attitudes.

We’re not free of inequitable arrangements at a social, cultural (dare I say religious), and legally framed way of social order. In Communication Law, I learned that justice is served in ways that are not always judicicously applied in the best interest of the people who reside under the umbrella (rubric) of current construction of applicable law. We live in a time where archaic law guides executive decision. And in my own opinion sincerely, until a time comes where we can grow a set of attitudes that extend social equity to all rather than the select few (which seems to be the majority in our American universe), we will be not sitting too pretty at any time soon.

Even now, as I almost turn 53, I’ve been of the mindset where the only reasonable solution to me concerning marriage was I will never be able to participate in this particular social construct with full legal parity. I’ve been… “single, going steady”… for a long time now but not with anyone else but myself.

In my own estimation, until we achieve full legal parity on a number of interconnected issues (referencing Miss Ticks’ express opinion), it will be exceptionally difficult to be 'free' on any account in America.

Yours Truly,
~Dawn

[Nadeest]

I will agree, we need full legal parity on everything.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I’m not fighting for access to marriage, and I wish that wasn’t where the gay rights movement was putting most of its effort and resources. (Violence, housing, employment, education, anyone?) But (with apologies to Groucho Marx), if someone is trying to keep me out of this club, I want in. How dare anyone say that I don’t deserve access to marriage and all it brings? How dare they say I, and my relationships, aren’t good enough?

I’d just prefer that LGBTQ people be recognized and accepted for being human beings, period. And that all human beings, regardless of relationship status, are assured their rights. That’s why I’m not celebrating the president’s “evolution.”

I agree mostly with the author. I don't think the drive for marriage equality in the US is particularly healthy or productive as far as gaining equality for all queer people and the diversity of struggles we continue to face globally. In Canada and other nations around the world, same-sex marriage has been legal for some years now. The consequence is that all those who were all "ra-ra gay rights" when marriage equality was by and large the only issue anyone put on the table, all went away once marriage equality had been achieved. These are mostly white, able-bodied, normative well off gays and lesbians who fit/want the picket fence ideal. And so discrimination and violence against queer people of colour, working class or homeless queer people, queer people with disabilities etc. get completely ignored. The movement really has learned very little from the mistakes of second wave feminism and its white middle class-centrism.

So in the context of the US president's support for gay marriage...I think it's a non-issue. If he supports equality for all American citizens, then it should have been assumed that he supports gay marriage. But at the same time, I wouldn't say its out of the blue either. Even before he was elected he had expressed support for same-sex marriage, and throughout his time as the American president he's repealed DADT...so I don't think he's necessarily changing his opinions for election purposes. He seems to be expressing something he's always been fairly open about. So as I said above...seems like a non-issue only made an issue by normative gays who have a very simple perspective of what queer rights mean and who it encompasses, and by religious fundies who freak out and cry Armageddon every time a politician speaks out against homophobia, anti-woman attitudes or racism.

[Apocalipstic]

I am glad President Obama said it before the election. I think it will hurt him with religious POC voters in the South especially, so it means more to me that he said it before the election.

Should more be happening for our people? yes!!!

But I never imagined that a sitting President would actually say that during my lifetime!

Cheers President Obama and thank you!

[Quintease]

I hate these people as guess what, WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD THAT YOU WANT!

I really think gay people stamping their feet and insisting that gays don't need marriage are hurting the cause, sorry but I do. It's very carriage-before-the-horse.

Yes it would be ideal to live in that world where gender and wedded bliss don't matter, but until we get there can we focus on something that the mainstream world/ Governments/ Religions/ Allies will understand? Can we just have a chance to be equal to everyone else first, before we start trying to change the society we live in. Surely equality is more important than fantasy right now?
People are dying out there, families are being split up , lovers are losing the right to see their loved ones, but these tossers have so much privilege that they can't be bothered to care about any of that? Fcuk them.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I hate these people as guess what, WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD THAT YOU WANT!

I really think gay people stamping their feet and insisting that gays don't need marriage are hurting the cause, sorry but I do. It's very carriage-before-the-horse.

Yes it would be ideal to live in that world where gender and wedded bliss don't matter, but until we get there can we focus on something that the mainstream world/ Governments/ Religions/ Allies will understand? Can we just have a chance to be equal to everyone else first, before we start trying to change the society we live in. Surely equality is more important than fantasy right now?
People are dying out there, families are being split up , lovers are losing the right to see their loved ones, but these tossers have so much privilege that they can't be bothered to care about any of that? Fcuk them.

it's not that i don't think that gay marriage IS an issue, it's just that i don't think it should be the ONLY issue. maybe that makes me a privileged tosser.

i've been treated horribly and screwed over when my parents died, which scares the shit out of me when it comes to anything happening to myself or my partner, and it would make both of our lives a lot easier (with health insurance, for starters) if we could get married. it would make me feel safer in the event that something happens to us, given that neither of us are close to our families.

but at the same time...the people i am closest to in my community are dealing with issues like violence, police brutality, being unable to work or go to the bathroom, and homelessness, and i can't ignore the fact that those things have had a bigger and more immediate impact on our lives than whether we are allowed to marry. yet those issues will never get the kind of support that gay marriage does. i respect that those may not be the biggest or most immediate issues for everyone in the lgbtq community, but they are immediate and life-threatening issues for some of us.

and regardless of how anyone feels about gay marriage, obama's statement is a nice gesture but it doesn't have any concrete meaning.

[aishah]

also...we live in a society that is fundamentally unequal.

i respect that gay marriage will help a lot of people in the immediate future, but it does not mean that all people will have marriage equality, and it won't make our fundamentally unequal society that much less unequal. it will make a lot of people's lives easier in the interim, so yeah, i'd be really happy if it were equally applied throughout the u.s. (i.e. not treated as a "separate but unequal" states' rights issue). but imho it should not be treated as the only issue or the endgame if we are really talking about wanting equality.

i am troubled because i frequently am in a position of educating straight people about lgbtq issues, and many of them are completely unaware of other immediate and life-threatening issues besides gay marriage (and maybe bullying of queer youth). i'm worried about the perception in some circles that if gay marriage is passed, we'll be living in a "post-homophobic" society. and i'm worried about how many people we're leaving behind.

[blush]

Originally Posted by aishah

it's not that i don't think that gay marriage IS an issue, it's just that i don't think it should be the ONLY issue. maybe that makes me a privileged tosser.

i've been treated horribly and screwed over when my parents died, which scares the shit out of me when it comes to anything happening to myself or my partner, and it would make both of our lives a lot easier (with health insurance, for starters) if we could get married. it would make me feel safer in the event that something happens to us, given that neither of us are close to our families.

but at the same time...the people i am closest to in my community are dealing with issues like violence, police brutality, being unable to work or go to the bathroom, and homelessness, and i can't ignore the fact that those things have had a bigger and more immediate impact on our lives than whether we are allowed to marry. yet those issues will never get the kind of support that gay marriage does. i respect that those may not be the biggest or most immediate issues for everyone in the lgbtq community, but they are immediate and life-threatening issues for some of us.

and regardless of how anyone feels about gay marriage, obama's statement is a nice gesture but it doesn't have any concrete meaning.

There are always "more urgent issues" to fight for. A 5 minute speech stating his stance on a controversial civil rights issue takes nothing away from other issues. He's the fucking president. I hope he can multitask.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I am glad President Obama said it before the election. I think it will hurt him with religious POC voters in the South especially, so it means more to me that he said it before the election.

Should more be happening for our people? yes!!!

But I never imagined that a sitting President would actually say that during my lifetime!

Cheers President Obama and thank you!

This is how I felt. I could honestly give a rats ass about any of them. All government is corrupt in my opinion. I no long support them and try like hell to stay clear of their half ass agendas.

[aishah]

nowhere did i dismiss the significance of marriage equality (though gay marriage does not equal marriage equality) or say that i didn't support gay marriage because my relationship isn't structured that way. in fact in my second post i very distinctly said that i DID support gay marriage. there are some trans people definitely who might benefit from it. my partner could be one of them. you're twisting my words yet again.

i am just tired of gay marriage and don't ask don't tell being the ONLY issues that get mainstream play. i wish obama...or the new york times...or anyone except a few small communities and independent news outlets cared about other issues that deeply affect a lot of us. i am tired of bringing that up and being told i just need to sit down and shut up and wait for the gay marriage equality before any other issues get any mainstream attention. it's exhausting. it fucking hurts. three human beings were killed in the past few weeks for being transgender people of color and the new york times could give a flying fuck about it. obama could care less. the mainstream lgbtq community could care less. because obama endorsed gay marriage so now we're all saved. yay.

[Quintease]

Things that happen when gays are denied marriage

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...rrested-in-nc/
https://www.facebook.com/chirp01