Identity, Authenticity - Do they conflict?

[Nat]

"I hit the wall of realizing my entire identity was based on having these kinds of discussions and I couldn't imagine myself outside of those discussions. So I started to recognize I was using those discussions as an identity, as a way to avoid having to become an authentic person. I thought, "well that's not good."

Eventually, as a part of a spiritual path, one of my teachers said to me, "The mind is vast. It is like the vast sky, and every idea that we have is like one single star in the sky of our minds." And every idea we have about race and gender - those are just one star in the vast sky of our mind. And when you start to look at ideas that way, you start to see ideas as tiny stars in the vast space of your mind, even if they feel like they are right here, like they are everything. But they're not. It's an illusion."

- Rebecca Walker

DePaul University Cultural Center's Panel Discussion (iTunes U), "What Multiracial Women Bring to the Table"

I want to talk about identity. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while now. I suppose for some time now, I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.

I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out.

So I have some questions floating around and I'd love to hear other people's takes on these:

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?

What does identity offer you?

What does it take from you?

Do you see your identity as flexible?

Have you felt pressure to identify?

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience.

For an identity-positive quote, I'll cite the Dead Poets chop-up of Walt Whitman:

O Me! O Life!
O the endless trains of the faithless!
O cities filled with the foolish!
What good amid these?
O Me! O Life!

The answer:
That life exists
and identity.
The powerful play goes on
and you may contribute a verse

.

[Nightshade]

Wow. Interesting topic. I'm excited to read everyone's take on it.

For me, I am not my identity. How I id myself is my simplified, shortcut way of expressing a part of who I am to the listener. And to myself for that matter. I always have been authentically me and have spent a great deal of my life frustrated because I lacked words for who/what I am. How I feel. What's inside.

Being human, I am multifaceted and haven't got it all figured out yet (probably never will) so I know that parts of how I identify are subject to change. That isn't to say that everything is temporary, I just feel it's important to question beliefs with an open mind. As time goes on I learn more and more about myself and how I relate to the world around me and my identity gets refined. Or something that I've thought to be safe statement about me gets put through the fire and doesn't survive, so I know it wasn't truly a part of me.

I say MOST of it is subject to change because some things have remained true long enough for me to state as unequivocal fact. I'm turning 48 soon and I have always been happily, unwaveringly female. When I was a little girl, I used to hang out with tomboys (budding femme that I was) and wonder why anyone would want to act like or be a boy. It's not that I haven't questioned my gender, it's that I have and the answer has always been the same.

Tl;dr: I am not my identity, my identity is a simplified, partial explanation of me.

[Kobi]

To me, words and labels, because they are subject to individual interpretation, are barriers to authenticity.
What a word means to me and what a word means to someone else may not be the same thing.

As such, they might be useful in some arenas but they rarely define the authentic me.
Plus, they limit exploration, flexibility, and freedom of expression.

Example. I like to flirt. My flirting is not always based on labels.
It may well be based on some people are just fun to play with.
Therefore, I will not only flirt with femmes, but some butches and
males and heteros as well. Doesnt mean I want to sleep with them
but light hearted banter can be very amusing, liberating, and just
plain feels good sometimes.

When I first came out, a few decades back, using labels was important in helping
to form and solidify my sense of self. Now, I find it too confining.

For me, the most authentic thing I can say about me is...
I am who and what I am. How that may manifest itself from
moment to moment and day to day is up for grabs. There is
no final, absolute product. It is a continually evolving process
which defies words.

[Corkey]

I am authentically me, always. Labels are for clothes and cars, but they do help convey to others how we as individuals see ourselves, and labels help others relate, (or not) to us.

Who I am, the being that inhabits this skin is a spiritual one that relates to people based on how they relate to me. I take people at face value, for instance, if you tell me you are femme that is how I will relate to you, FTM fine no problem, butch, again not an issue. Where I find trouble is when another human wants to put me into their neat little box against my wishes. Nope not going to happen and I will fight tooth and nail against their perceived notion of who I am.

Good topic Nat.

[Mister Bent]

Excellent thread topic, thank you for starting this discussion, Nat.

I need to think on this a bit further, but I did have an immediate thought in response to the following:

"Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?"

It seems for me that the shedding of the desire to name/label myself has run a parallel course with an increased feeling of personal authenticity. In the last 5 years, identity labels have begun to feel increasingly restrictive to me, and more a source of division than cohesion.

[JustLovelyJenn]

This subject interests me a lot. It is also one I have done a great deal of research on, and a great deal of thinking.

I am lucky enough to be part of a group that presents a LGTB sensitivity Safe Space training at a local community college. Years ago when I was a student there I was privileged to help develop this training for the campus and have continued to be asked to present with the group 3 times a year. One of the topics we touch on is LGTB Identity Development, looking at research done by Alfred Kinsey, Fritz Klein, and Vivianne Cass. As well as looking at a non LGTB Identity development model by Hardiman and Jackson.

With all of that said... Its given me a very different view of Identity and Labels then I had when I first started coming out.

Identity labels are a social construct, not limited to any one person or groups of people. Each person in any given society is subject to the need to identify themselves with those around them, or in some cases, make the decision that they do NOT identify with the "norm" and decide what it is they do identify with.

These societal views of identity can serve to both unite and divide a community. Just like the fact that I identify as a queer lesbian alienates me from my religious family, it also gives me common ground within the Butch Femme community.

The biggest thing that came to my mind with this thread, as I read through the original post, and the responses to follow is the idea of Multiple dimensions of Identity. The idea that around ones core self orbits all of the Identity labels that we choose to use. In this case, for myself, I may include Mother, Musician, Daughter, Teacher, Lesbian, Queer, Person with Anxiety, Sister, Caucasian... among others. Each of these pieces of my identity move continually around my Core (authentic) self, contributing to it, but not changing it. Depending on the situation that I am in I may choose to keep some of these Identities at the back, guarded and unseen. As a Teacher I may feel comfortable showing that I am also a mother, but find it unnecessary and maybe even scary to reveal that I am Queer. For me this does not lessen the importance of any part of myself. By seeing this way, I have been able to develop many different aspects of myself with very little inner turmoil. I have embraced my many identities and used them to enhance my authentic, or core, self.

[julieisafemme]

Excellent thread!

At Butch Voices LA we had this same discussion in a workshop on feminism. One woman made the point that labels are what people apply to you and identity is how you see yourself. She said that the two are conflated sometimes and that is not good for people. She said that she wants to have an identity before someone applies a label to her. This is bad paraphrasing but that was the gist.

I feel the opposite of some here in that the more I have learned about myself the more I have been able to define myself with language. The words are powerful to me! I am a Jew, queer, a femme, neurodiverse. These are all words that I chose to define myself and they are hard won and precious to me.

I am more authentic now than in any other time in my life because I can define myself to myself and others. Maybe I have chosen the right words now instead of hiding behind the identity I had constructed for myself before.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by Nat

*
Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *
.

identity:
1. the condition of being oneself or itself, and not another: He doubted hisown identity.
—Synonyms: individuality, personality, distinctiveness, uniqueness.

authenticity:
1. of undisputed origin or authorship; genuine: an authentic signature 2. accurate in representation of the facts; trustworthy; reliable: an authentic account

This is an interesting question Nat. I would like to add authentic to whom, because what appears authentic to me, may not appear so to another.

I see my general identity as both multi-faceted and fluid. Being gay is a small, but delicious facet of my whole being. I really liked the analogy of a single star and the whole night sky. It makes sense to me. I would call that single star a facet, as well as a thought when it comes to identity. Time as well comes to play with identity, and what we believe about ourselves which in turn forms our identity. For instance I was raised being a Ballerina, and at one point in my life it was my major identity. Who are you? I am a dancer. That experience had been so thoroughly explored and developed internally and spiritually that it was, and is still part of my identity. Now enters time. I am no longer either an athlete, nor a Ballerina, but I do still identify as a dancer. A person who loves dance and still has a deep understanding of the art of movement. Now it is about social dancing, and an "art" that I enjoy watching. Yet I still have the same deep inner knowing of dance. When I watch someone dance, or dance socially my understanding is the same as if I were still a Ballerina. Does that make me non authentic in saying i am a dancer? Without qualifying, yes it is misleading. And maybe to someone who does not know me deeply, but not to me, I will always be a dancer. So authenticity is in my mind subjective to the individual, and their experience, as long as there is not conscious deceit. Are any of us 100% who we think we are? Probably not. We are complex beings in a world and culture who's identity is reflective of it's own "definition of reality." Nebulous stuff.

I find that humans have basic traits, that prove consistent over time. Certain interests and desires that prove consistent over time. Certain genetics and behaviors that give rise repeatedly. Certain personality patterns that are consistent, all facets of who we are as a person. It seems to me that we usually present ourselves as who we believe we are, and we call that identity. As long as we don't lie on purpose, we are at least authentic unto our own viewpoint. I do believe we can work to be more honest with ourselves as our experiences become clear to us, and present that as clearly as possible to others. Weather or not they agree is dependent on their own story about reality.

You may have an opinion, but that does not make it the word of GOD..... me included!

Pashi

[Martina]

There are ID's that fit my sense of me, and ones that don't fit as closely. Some are easy -- lesbian, for example. Others are more problemmatic -- femme, for example. The important point for me is that i shouldn't allow myself or others to use an identity to put into question who i am or how i walk through the world. My sense of what works for me does not have to fit anyone's sense of what a femme should be, for example.

i also think there are IDs that say a lot about who i am, but that i don't think about much. They are not valuable to me, not fought for, not ones that helped me grow. Middle class is an example. It says a lot about me. But i didn't earn it. i am grateful for having had to struggle less than i might have had to. But i don't feel pride about my class status. i don't think about myself as a middle class person very often. But i think AS a middle class person every day. i am sure it says way more about me than femme does.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Wow. Interesting topic. I'm excited to read everyone's take on it.

For me, I am not my identity. How I id myself is my simplified, shortcut way of expressing a part of who I am to the listener. And to myself for that matter. I always have been authentically me and have spent a great deal of my life frustrated because I lacked words for who/what I am. How I feel. What's inside.

Being human, I am multifaceted and haven't got it all figured out yet (probably never will) so I know that parts of how I identify are subject to change. That isn't to say that everything is temporary, I just feel it's important to question beliefs with an open mind. As time goes on I learn more and more about myself and how I relate to the world around me and my identity gets refined. Or something that I've thought to be safe statement about me gets put through the fire and doesn't survive, so I know it wasn't truly a part of me.

I say MOST of it is subject to change because some things have remained true long enough for me to state as unequivocal fact. I'm turning 48 soon and I have always been happily, unwaveringly female. When I was a little girl, I used to hang out with tomboys (budding femme that I was) and wonder why anyone would want to act like or be a boy. It's not that I haven't questioned my gender, it's that I have and the answer has always been the same.

Tl;dr: I am not my identity, my identity is a simplified, partial explanation of me.

I really relate to what you wrote here, Nightshade.



To respond to the main question...the title question...for me...they have. Much less now than before, though. For a while, when I was still trying to figure out what was going on with me and where I was going and who I was, I identified with identities that didn't fully explain or connect with myself. I did it out of laziness and of fear. I had an identity but I wasn't being completely authentic with myself.

As I've grown and evolved, I've become more authentic. The identities that are right for me came only after I began to be true to myself.

Shakespeare may have had something there......

[dixie]

Hmm...very interesting topic. I will definitely have to read more of the thread and think on it. I can say this however... I do use "labels" for myself. BUT my labels describe me, they do not define me. I am ever evolving, changing, growing. My authenticity of self never waivers no matter what new describing label/identity I use or discard. I guess for me personally, they compliment one another more often than conflict...

[EnderD_503]

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?

It really depends on the role of an identity or identities for an individual. It is possible for a person to create an identity for themselves in order to portray themselves in a certain way to others. The reason for that may be for self-preservation, self-perceived self-preservation, because they want to become that identity in order for others to see them a certain way, because they simply want to change themselves, deceive others, were convinced that that's who they were by others and so on.

On the other hand, identity can also serve as a tool toward self-discovery, and I think the LGBT community is a good example of this. For many, taking on an identity is a way of, first and foremost, explaining themselves to themselves. Afterwards it becomes a way of explaining themselves to others. It may also serve as a launchpad to deciding that that is not their identity, but leads them toward further understanding themselves.

Identity may also serve as a way to realise that one doesn't need an identity in order to have one, if that makes any sense.

Identity is also a great unifier among those who bear a common perspective, or it can be a great divider.

As for myself, I think that the role identity has played in my life has reflected much of the above. In many respects it has been the route to self-discovery. On the other hand, certain aspects of my identity have also been created for what I thought was self-preservation and reputation, and so they are not necessarily aspects of my "authentic" self.

On the other hand, there is no such thing as an "authentic" Ender, since the individual is constantly changing. I am not the same person I was yesterday, nor that I will be tomorrow. I am not static, so what is "authentically" me is never static. There are certain core components that will likely remain, but even they will progress toward what I view as my ideal self (or will view as such, in the future).

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?

It both unites and divides, as well as do neither, depending on the situation. Covered that above before I saw this question.

What does identity offer you? It offers me a way of exploring myself, developing myself, understanding myself, moving on from the past to a better future. It also allows me to better understand others by hearing or reading what they've got to say about their own identity.

While identity may appear to be a box/series of boxes mainstream society places individuals into, I think observing the vast numbers of identities out there serves to show us how many differences and commonalities we all have. It's also intruiging to see how complex and diverse the human species is.

What does it take from you? What can occasionally take from me is not something that is inherent to possessing an identity, but the chance that someone will look at your identity and make assumptions based on it. No matter my identity, I am still ever-changing, and identities and labels can only explain who a person is to a certain extent. All in all, I am never 100% what I claim my identity to be. It may be a way of explaining me in words, but it doesn't explain everything, because I can't even explain everything.

Do you see your identity as flexible? Mostly, yes. There are certain consistancies that have remained throughout my life, and I'd be surprised if they changed later on. That said, there are certain aspects that have changed, whether to take on a more solid/decisive shape or to be discarded as useless.

Have you felt pressure to identify? No. There are certain aspects of my past identity (that still linger, for sure) that formed partially because of environment, and partially because of personality. There were pressures, but I don't think they pressured me to become who I became.

As for gender identity or sexual identity, the greatest pressure I've ever felt was to conform to heterosexual norms.

[Queerasfck]

Sometimes I feel really constricted by labels and question what they really mean to me. Other times I don't care about them at all. And also, being part of an online community sometimes I put pressure on myself to "fit in" and use a label.

[dykeumentary]

This is a great topic!
I don't have clear ideas yet on authenticity, but I do know that where I am from, my family does not know any of the "language of identity" that's used on a website like this, and in gay culture. My town sees me as "the one of Carol's (my mom) kids that's artsy." I actually feel more whole and integrated when I'm with my family, than with people who can list off my identities. It's kind of how they look at all art, too If there's a "Jesus" in it, it's "art," if it doesn't then it's "modern art". So for me an aspect of this thread's topic is about access to language/vocabulary. And also if language is descriptive or divisive.

[LeftWriteFemme]

Offering you my three angle measurements may not tell you everything about my triangular nature, but it lets you know right away that I am no square.......

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

I want to talk about identity. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while now. I suppose for some time now, I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.

I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out.

So I have some questions floating around and I'd love to hear other people's takes on these:

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?

Each branch (label) that is chosen by myself and others is a chosen or placed definition of who I am. They are small branches of what makes me Snow.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *

As I grow older my identities (labels) and authenticity go hand in hand, I'm more mature and have accepted who and what I am evolving too so therefore it carries how true I am to myself.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?

Depends if we let it divide us, it can be a choice I choose to not let it and let them co exist happily with one another

What does identity offer you?

Expression, room to grow

What does it take from you?

Identity does not take from me, what others choose to placed on me as an identity does

Do you see your identity as flexible? Yes, I don't tend to sit still and go stale, so like with anything else in me its fluid and runs with my course

Have you felt pressure to identify?

Not at 40 I sure don't, as a younger queer yes after 30 *I* chose to not let those pressures disturb my life's course.

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience.

For an identity-positive quote, I'll cite the Dead Poets chop-up of Walt Whitman:

.

If a label feels constricting or it's something that I have not chosen to use I will fight it. I'm not built to fit into lil boxes I always tend to ooze out of them so with that and maturity I feel we all will either continue to evolve or stay stagnant and when we do stay that way there can be no authenticity.

[DapperButch]

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

I was just going to write something similar. I seem to be having trouble thinking with the discussion. Maybe it's a matter of how I define and use the words identity and authenticity, and labels.

My identity, to me, is who *I* am, at the core. The labels are ways to express aspects of myself, authentic or not. Authenticity depends on how closely my life and living echo my identity.

When I was living as a heterosexual in the burbs, trying to fit myself into the expectations of my husband, parents, and community, I was very unhappy. My life was not being lived with authenticity. I had labels, some of which still hold true, but they were only generalizations.

Even now, I say I'm a lesbian, knowing that everyone has a different idea of what that means. I don't say I'm a femme, even though you might think I am (my partner does), because it just doesn't seem real to me. I was a mom, and I still am. But, being a mom who is more self-aware makes me a better mom. So, the label "mom" doesn't mean the same thing now that it did 18 years ago.

To me, identity is who I am. Authenticity is the most honest expression of that. This requires self-awareness and a willingness to change and grow. Labels are the shorthand that may or may not truly convey the reality of me to you. Self-awareness is, I think, the key. In the process of self-dscovery, I've seen a lot of people try on and sometimes discard how they want to live and be seen. That's the process of self-discovery, and is necessary, I think, for being more and more authentic. It's a process.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

Why would anyone try to be or portray a version of themselves that isn't true?

Haven't been to a school lately, have you, Dapper?

*grin*

Originally Posted by Lynn

I was just going to write something similar. I seem to be having trouble thinking with the discussion. Maybe it's a matter of how I define and use the words identity and authenticity, and labels.

My identity, to me, is who *I* am, at the core. The labels are ways to express aspects of myself, authentic or not. Authenticity depends on how closely my life and living echo my identity.

When I was living as a heterosexual in the burbs, trying to fit myself into the expectations of my husband, parents, and community, I was very unhappy. My life was not being lived with authenticity. I had labels, some of which still hold true, but they were only generalizations.

Even now, I say I'm a lesbian, knowing that everyone has a different idea of what that means. I don't say I'm a femme, even though you might think I am (my partner does), because it just doesn't seem real to me. I was a mom, and I still am. But, being a mom who is more self-aware makes me a better mom. So, the label "mom" doesn't mean the same thing now that it did 18 years ago.

To me, identity is who I am. Authenticity is the most honest expression of that. This requires self-awareness and a willingness to change and grow. Labels are the shorthand that may or may not truly convey the reality of me to you. Self-awareness is, I think, the key. In the process of self-dscovery, I've seen a lot of people try on and sometimes discard how they want to live and be seen. That's the process of self-discovery, and is necessary, I think, for being more and more authentic. It's a process.

To me, you answered your own question. When one is being authentic to him or herself, and identifies in whatever manner allows them to be authentic, then there is little to no conflict within. When one is not authentic to their self, then there's conflict. It may be internal or external or both.

It's like a gear shaft, I think. If all the gears are in line, then the grooves will fall into place and the machine will run smoothly. If something's off (identity or authenticity or both), then the gears will jam and grind. Sometimes that's a good thing, but not usually.

My .02 without much sleep, so I hope it makes sense.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

Originally Posted by Gemme

Why would anyone try to be or portray a version of themselves that isn't true?

Haven't been to a school lately, have you, Dapper?

*grin*

Ohhhhhhhh..... Got it.

<---Dapper be dense.

Thanks.