Big Girl Love

[betenoire]

Betenoir-It's a little stressful to think of Lane Bryant only using models from sizes 12-16 - since I am willing to bet that NO people who wear those sizes shop at Lane Bryant. They don't have to. So why would they?

I am actually a little surprised at this statement...If you were to make that bet you would be dead wrong. Depending on the manufacture I wear anywhere from a size 12 to an 18. I shop at lane bryant, Ashely Stuart and all the rest on a regular basis. I do agree its BEYOND fucked up that a disportionate amount of "PLUS SIZE" models are just "slightly heavier" versions of "regular" models....and it is particularly disgusting to see a company that makes there money from curvaceous women subscribe to this outrageous practice.

I was confused about why you would be surprised by my statement...until I looked up a couple of size charts. Seems that the US and Canada size things differently. I wear an 18-20 in Canada...apparently I wear a 16-18 in the US. Who knew?

So when I read sizes 12-16 I thought those were like Canadian 12-16...who absolutely wouldn't be shopping in a Plus Size store. Because, you know...if you didn't have to why would you? Plus size stores are -way- more expensive, the selection isn't as great, and there is that awful tendency to make the clothes incredibly ugly.

That alight store looks awesome, by the way. Love love love. I almost licked my monitor.

[hippieflowergirl]

".....the phrase "plus-sized model" is a relative term. Whitney [Thompson...the 'PLUS SIZED' winner of a cycle of "America's Next Top Model" a few months back] says she's a size 10 and though in the modeling world, that's considered big enough to call for a forklift, in the real world that's considered, dare I say it...pretty normal.

Yikes. This sort of thing makes normal girls feel even worse about themselves. They see this fairly trim woman being praised as “plus-size” and then think, “Well, if that’s plus-size, I must be grossly obese!”

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

I'm sure she doesn't struggle to find a decent Ball Gown

i'm sure she doesnt struggle to find ANYTHING. size 10 is still below the supposed size 12 to 16 average of amerikan women.

apparently she was repeatedly told that losing 4 inches from her hips would make her "model material".

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

apparently she was repeatedly told that losing 4 inches from her hips would make her "model material".

That's fucked up right there! Just look at her!

[betenoire]

Actually, I did some googling around (because, you know...if you read it on the internet it MUST be true) and it seems that the size 10 America's Next Top Model girl is smaller than average. Seems that the average dress size for women in the US is about 14.

Which means that this supposed Plus Size model is thinner than well over 50% of American Women.

Which means that it's a vast conspiracy to try and make well over 50% of American Women feel like shit.

(oh! I totally found a new hobby! I just spent a solid 5 minutes grabbing and shaking my belly roll and giggling! Way better than xbox! Cheaper, too!)

[LieslKate]

[QUOTE=Ol' Jet;34950]I want to tell you a story. I met someone I came to fall love with on line. We were on the phone 24/7 for 6 months while I lived in Colorado with my family. We talked about everything—and I mean everything to get to know each other.

I had never grown to love anyone or be so enamored with a woman until I met her. Trust me when I tell you I was completely carried away by her southern charm, her voice, her eloquence, and presence. I loved everything about her—that certain southern sexiness being from Atlanta; her views on life, and her intelligence. I loved the way she thought and most of all, how she responded to me as a transman. She was absolutely the kind of woman I could ever hope to be in love with. And I grew to love her, sight unseen except for a few pictures she sent. As time went on, I wanted her to the point of marriage and for her to be the one to kiss me goodbye for the last time—as my life partner.

Our relationship was based on trust— no stone was unturned about our lives, families and our experiences even as far back as childhood. We laughed and cried and shared over and over. Many times we talked about our health being in our 50s—our weight, exercise and
diets. When she sent her pictures she was heavy set and she told me they were out of date and that she was on a diet because she was determined to lose weight. I gave her kudos and encouraged her to keep going. She said she was 40 pounds within her goal, and to me, that was nothing.

She had planned to come to Denver to meet me, and it always failed because of something on her end or mine—logistically is just never happened.

Meantime I had sent her my art and she told me that I needed to be in Atlanta, and that she, herself, being in the corporate world had never seen designs as inventive or of the same level or caliber. She had opened the door for me in thinking of Atlanta as a career move instead of Denver. Naturally, being crazy about her, I came to Atlanta.

Since we had never met in person beforehand, we made a pact and promised each other that if for some reason, we didn’t hit it off or it didn’t work, we would be great friends because we liked each other and had so much in common. So what did I have to lose?

I landed in Atlanta and she picked me up at the airport. I was excited, nervous and I couldn’t wait to meet her.

When she pulled up and got out of the car, she looked as though she more like 140 pounds within her goal not 40; she was obese and much heavier than her pictures. I won’t lie to you, I was floored. I had on sunglasses and she asked me to take them off because she “knew” I would be blown away and she wanted to see my expression. I took them off, kissed her, hugged her and didn’t flinch once. What blew me away the most was that she wasn’t anywhere near the person she sounded like.

But I handled it and this is how:

First, I fell in love with her, not her weight. I fell in love with an incredible woman filled with poise, intelligence, grace and an unspeakable presence that draws you to her. As I collected myself more and more throughout that day, I felt that weight could be dealt with and that it really was secondary in the scheme of falling in love and wanting to marry her. At the same time, I also felt I had made the biggest mistake of my life coming to Atlanta to be with her because she had misrepresented herself. I struggled with my feelings because I felt split down the middle. But I believe in honoring what I say and I was determined to give things a chance and eventually decide between the two of us if things wee going to work out.

We had made a promise that if it didn’t work out we would remain friends. Besides, being with her, her weight never once overshadowed her demeanor or the qualities that had attracted me to her.

But then came clincher:

We lived apart when I came to Atlanta and so we would spend 4-day weekends at my apartment. The sixth weekend arrived and she left to help her daughter who was in major drama and crisis.

She never returned — not once and without so much as valid explanation.

In emails that followed she said we wouldn’t be a good fit and gave other reasons that never warranted her leaving or the fact that she didn’t want to be friends. When I read them to my friends and family they couldn’t believe it.

I was livid and hurt and on a rollercoaster of feelings that ran the full gamut.
I was willing to see it through and she walked out on me. Forget the weight. She completed destroyed the image I had of her as a woman of integrity. Talk about stunned? She left me in a strange town, no car, no bearings or direction, no help and no real explanation. Remember, I’m a trauma survivor which she knew about. So the shock of leaving me almost sent me over the edge; she could have killed me. The poetry in my thread, The Dancer of Atlanta, are about her with the exception of Rio Rio and
Rocket 88.

So you talk about big girl love? She was a big girl who was loved and never even knew how much.


[/QUOTE]

I was the Grrl on the other side of a similar and very recent situation. We had already met once (for a 3 day weekend that ended in less than 12 hours) that didn't go well for other reasons. We also had similar plans, thoughts and dreams moving ahead in the relationship and I was going to be the one moving there.

After a couple of weeks not speaking she called and we decided to try again and spent the next 2 months talking for hours every day about anything and everything under the sun including issues about body image (hers and mine, with a less than 25lb difference in respective weights) and dealing with them. We had / have so much in common and after the heart-rending year I had just gone through I was filled with hope, desire and trust in a better future.

We decided to start with a visit of 10 days... the second day of the day visit she told me she didn't see any possibility of a relationship as partners/lovers/married as she was not able to be physically attracted to me and we had nothing much in common; she then emotionally distanced herself, barely spoke to me and I had 8 more agonizing and heartbreaking days to get though in her home before my flight home. I was stunned to say the least and in so much pain, absolutely numb. Never buy a cheap ticket that can't be changed...

It was not all negative, I always try to find something positive even in a bad situation and it was my first holiday in 8 years. We had fun going out and exploring her city (my possible future home), meeting her friends and having conversations on a superficial level but the trust had been broken. We are speaking yet again simply because we do have that much to talk about and do care for each other very much just not daily and not the way it was. I miss what we had and its hard being just friends.

I think your G/f perhaps felt your hesitation and struggle and took what for her may have been the easy way out without giving sufficient thought as to how it would affect you... maybe it was what she needed to do to deal with her pain.

I feel the pain, anger and heartbreak in your post and understand it. I wish both of us a positive future and in spite of how I am feeling right now I would try yet a third time even though my heart feels battered and bruised. As for starting a new relationship that will be a very long time coming.

[IrishGrrl]

I'm glad I wasnt around to read this thread in the last few days.

The only thing I'm going to comment on is Junes post. I dont disagree persay, but I do not share your feelings about threads/spaces like this.
I feel like you were right on the money when you said that people of size are marginalized, and treated as less than. That is exactly the reason I feel we need threads/spaces like this. I dont see it being that much different than other groups who are marginalized setting up positive space for themselves.
Sometimes after a long day of being dismissed, and discrimiated against, it's nice to come to a place where I feel loved, appreciated, seen.

That's why I come here to the planet. To be appreciated and seen for WHO I am ..not WHAT I am.

xoxoxo

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by June

I know, Irish. And I know the thread was started with very good intent and there has been some great conversation in here. And also, as per usual, there has been asshattery, misunderstandings and hurt feelings along with a few reconciliations.

I remember a few years ago, there was a thread like this on another forum, and someone very dear to me, who is not a person of size talked to me about how she felt about it as someone who struggled to be a healthy weight for her. I never forgot that. Body image issues come in all sizes.

when i was teaching (it was a massage school) i got to teach A & P, kinesiology, clinical practicum and massage theory & practice classes. one of the things that was NOT built into the curriculum was what it would be like for the client, if they had body issues, laying on the table nude (under a sheet). each area of the body is exposed to work on it if the client allows, right? so...when the students practiced on one another (which they did 4 times a week for a year) they had to take off their clothes.

for the most part, the new students were always freaked out about taking off their clothing as part of the learning process. after a while, that fear was greatly diminished for most of them...but definitely not all. it inspired me to make time in my first term classes to have a round robin discussion about body image. one of the best things to come of it was this:

our opinions about our bodies arent innate...we arent born loving our physical selves (or our intellectual, emotional and spiritual selves for that matter). we're handed our self image by others...friends, family, lovers, culture, media and so on...and expected to assimilate what's "right" or "wrong" from all of that information. some of us get great images...most of us dont. most of us learn that there's something wrong with us somehow and we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to fit the paradigm we've been taught.

no one wants to be unhealthy. but as has been said before, fat does not necessarily equal unhealthy; just as slender doesnt automatically indicate good health.

i know that my doctor does not like that i smoke, but she also knows that smoking increases dopamine interaction and that makes my drugs work more efficiently. she now also knows that i'm smoking more because i'm struggling not to put unnecessary food in my mouth. i know a lot of people who smoke in order to avoid eating more. i know one man who uses chewing tobacco for the same reason...and he's in his 50s. he knows better. he's always been active. but as he's gotten older tobacco is part of what he does to stay slim.

what have we learned from our friends/families/lovers/culture/media...?



that the risk of cancer is better than extra weight?

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by IrishGrrl

I'm glad I wasnt around to read this thread in the last few days.

The only thing I'm going to comment on is Junes post. I dont disagree persay, but I do not share your feelings about threads/spaces like this.
I feel like you were right on the money when you said that people of size are marginalized, and treated as less than. That is exactly the reason I feel we need threads/spaces like this. I dont see it being that much different than other groups who are marginalized setting up positive space for themselves.
Sometimes after a long day of being dismissed, and discrimiated against, it's nice to come to a place where I feel loved, appreciated, seen.

That's why I come here to the planet. To be appreciated and seen for WHO I am ..not WHAT I am.
xoxoxo

i DO. i want to be appreciated for WHAT i am. i'm a "fat, delicious, femme genius". (my best gay boyfriend coined the term and i love it!) i want to be appreciated for my WHAT, WHO, WHEN, WHERE and WHY. i want to be appreciated for all of me. if someone likes my WHO but not my WHAT then they dont like ME.

i want someone to like me, flaws and all. fat is not one of those flaws. a propensity to be long-winded and selfish is...but fat is not. i want to be loved because i'm flawed. loving someone who's perfect is too much work. (there's no room on the pedestal for both of you and who wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesnt understand struggle?)

i'm glad there are threads like this as well. most days anyway. i see things posted this thread that are meant to be supportive...but they really serve to remind me that it's socially acceptable to discriminate against people who dont conform to cutural weight standards.

i get so tired of being seen as "less than" because i'm booty-liscious.

i get tired of being treated as though i'm disfigured because i have round thighs and large breasts.

i get tired of people's looks of surprise when i show up on my bike or ask to be included in a hike or some other physical activity.

it irks the hell out of me when someone responds with an incredulous look when they see a flier/advertisement for a class (yoga or belly dance) i'm teaching/have taught.

why is it socially acceptable to assume (and treat me as thought) i'm completely sedentary, out of control, unhealthy, and piggish because i weigh 50 pounds more than i care to at the moment? (and no...the "appropriate maximum weight" listed for someone my height on height/weight charts is NOT my goal).

why is there a cultural assumption that i'm "lucky" or should be "grateful" if i have a lover? maybe it's the lover who is lucky!

why should anyone be judged based on something this arbitrary? i'm not raping dogs or burning babies. i'm fat. i'm not afraid of being fat. i'm not embarrassed or apologetic.

why do i want to take out an ad in every major newspaper in the world and tell the asshats to step off when i know it wont matter...to them or me...in the end?

dear haters,

i dont want to be angry at you. i dont want to give you any of my time or any space in my head. you will never be worth it. i may be fat...but you're stupid and i'd rather be me than you. stupid is ugly. fat is simply more of me...and that's always a good thing.

p.s. i dont have a "weight problem". you have a problem with my weight.

[HeartBreak Kid]

I must admit, I love this Thread...As a curvacious woman it is refreshing to see dialouge regarding body issues and how it can and does affect and shape our view on sensuality..

Medusa Honey...U are a stone cold FOX.....

and I can Honestly say I LOVE a woman with curves. But more than that I love a woman thats comfortable in her body. Maybe thats becuase I hope to learn how to become more comfortable in mine.
Thank you for this thread...and while it might seem like I just like starting shit I assure you I am not. I am truley interested in the perception of others and I look foward to further communications with you all.....

Here is my question....
Being a Curvacious woman, is there anyone in the media or literary world that inspires you (me, us) to be not just comfortable but also aware of your sexiness in a positive way?

Peace and Love

[HeartBreak Kid]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

dear haters,

i dont want to be angry at you. i dont want to give you any of my time or any space in my head. you will never be worth it. i may be fat...but you're stupid and i'd rather be me than you. stupid is ugly. fat is simply more of me...and that's always a good thing.

p.s. i dont have a "weight problem". you have a problem with my weight.

YOU ROCK TO THE 10TH POWER.......Thank you
Peace and Love

[SassyLeo]

Here is Portland, we have a shop called Fat Fancy!

It is owned by 2 amazing Queer Femmes in our community. For several years, they held sales in basements and at festivals to raise money for the shop. And even got a grant from Intuit! Now they have a full storefront-

Beth Ditto has been a true advocate as well, and I believe they even carry some of her clothing line!

I don't think they have online shopping yet, but if you are even here in town... we could go together!

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Here is Portland, we have a shop called Fat Fancy!

It is owned by 2 amazing Queer Femmes in our community. For several years, they held sales in basements and at festivals to raise money for the shop. And even got a grant from Intuit! Now they have a full storefront-

Beth Ditto has been a true advocate as well, and I believe they even carry some of her clothing line!

I don't think they have online shopping yet, but if you are even here in town... we could go together!

i enjoy beth ditto quite a bit. if only had been that confident in my "youth"! now i just have to come and visit so we can go shopping!

[Softly]

no idea what this thread is about because I am about to go out for break but I love my curves....and all of yours too. xoxo

[Inuus]

Camryn Manheim. If you havent read her book "Wake Up, I'm Fat" you should. Great book funny as heck. She talks about what she went through because of her size in Hollywood etc very candid

Originally Posted by HeartBreak Kid

Here is my question....
Being a Curvacious woman, is there anyone in the media or literary world that inspires you (me, us) to be not just comfortable but also aware of your sexiness in a positive way?

Peace and Love

[always2late]

I really like this thread. I am all for celebration of, and acceptance of self....no matter what shape or size. And its good to see lots of folks with healthy body images who don't feel the need to conform to society's idea that beauty only comes in a size 2.

There are a few posts that are kinda troubling me though....and maybe its none of my business (but when has that ever kept my mouth shut before? lol)

I read a post by Ol' Jet...and I found it very sad. The end of a relationship is never easy...and that ending sounded particularly painful. There is one thing I have to say though...there seems to be a rush of judgement about how Jet conducted himself. That the woman he was seeing ended the relationship because of how he felt, or how he couldn't "accept" her.

I know neither party involved, and I have no idea why the relationship ended...however, I read the post as him telling his side of it in hindsight. We have no idea what the woman felt, or did not feel.

From what I read, this person was, at best, dishonest. I am not a small girl, and as a mother and a 42-year-old I will never again look the way I did at 21 (nor would I want to really), but I have never lied about how I look, or what size I wear. How can you build a relationship based on a lie? Look, no matter what we say, relationships are usually begun based on attraction. And no matter what kind of intellectual, or emotional attachment one feels for another....if there is no physical attraction, then the relationship will not really get off the ground. Who knows if the relationship discussed in the post would have started or lasted had the woman been honest from the beginning....the point is, she wasn't. And, from what I read, despite the initial reaction...he wanted it to work because of the person he believed she was. I really don't see the fault in that.

And, no matter why the relationship ended....I think any human being deserves to be told in person that their relationship is over. Email just doesn't cut it. I also find the circumstances a little odd....the woman disappears and then sends an email saying that they don't "fit". Come on...I just think that's wrong. Whatever the reason that it ended, he at least deserved to be told to his face. That's just a matter of respect.

Sigh....ok...off the soapbox. I'm tired and probably not making much sense anyway. G'night thread.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

".....the phrase "plus-sized model" is a relative term. Whitney [Thompson...the 'PLUS SIZED' winner of a cycle of "America's Next Top Model" a few months back] says she's a size 10 and though in the modeling world, that's considered big enough to call for a forklift, in the real world that's considered, dare I say it...pretty normal.

Yikes. This sort of thing makes normal girls feel even worse about themselves. They see this fairly trim woman being praised as “plus-size” and then think, “Well, if that’s plus-size, I must be grossly obese!”

I'm conflicted with what you are saying, Kathlene. On one hand, I watch ANTM and have been very happy to see that Tyra has actively selected and promoted girls who do not fit the "model" stereotype. I loved that Whitney won her season too. So, in that particular situation, I think this is a wonderful thing.

However, I see your point that, even though it's a good thing (above), our viewpoint of what is and is not obese or normal or plus-size is very distorted.

I'm not someone who may be 'qualified' per se to discuss my personal body issues here (though I LOVED what June said about body issues coming in all sizes), but those who are struggling, please know that, no matter what you see around you, you are not alone.

[always2late]

Ok...so maybe "dishonest" is a little harsh. Maybe misrepresentation is a better word.

I just think that if you are going to take the time to send a picture...and describe yourself to someone differently then you actually appear..then there are other issues going on. As you said, it shouldn't matter....so why hide it? Let it all hang out and let the chips fall where they may...that's my policy. If someone doesn't like the way I look, or judges me based on my size, hair color, etc...then good for em. Less of my time wasted.

psst...by the way...I've seen a pic of your wife...and I think she is beautiful!

[Pixie]

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I'm conflicted with what you are saying, Kathlene. On one hand, I watch ANTM and have been very happy to see that Tyra has actively selected and promoted girls who do not fit the "model" stereotype. I loved that Whitney won her season too. So, in that particular situation, I think this is a wonderful thing.

However, I see your point that, even though it's a good thing (above), our viewpoint of what is and is not obese or normal or plus-size is very distorted.

I'm not someone who may be 'qualified' per se to discuss my personal body issues here (though I LOVED what June said about body issues coming in all sizes), but those who are struggling, please know that, no matter what you see around you, you are not alone.

hi Gemme-a-roo!

i think Whitney is drop dead gorgeous! i should be so plus sized! i'm glad that she won ANTM at a size 10 but i hate that she's called a "plus sized model" when she's 2 sizes smaller than the average american woman (who is typically a size 14. (i hear 12 to 14 is the median). the words posted under her photo arent mine. (hence the quotes)

having worked in high end fashion i've watched the sizes assigned to women's clothing fluctuate into something almost unrecognizable. some time in the early tomid-90s the fit standard we were used to downsized...in other words a size 12 became a size 10, a size 6 became a size 4 and etc. the sizing shift didnt take place globally by any means. so if you're a size 8 in the US you may not be a size 8 elsewhere. there is no single standard for women's clothing. men's clothing has something close to stability with regard to sizing because much of what they wear is based on waist and chest size in inches (in the US anyway) and sized that way (i.e.: jeans come in waist/length denominations like 36/34 and so on, jackets & suits are measured and/or tailored based on actual measurements rather than on random numbers like "size 8").

~~~~~~~~~

on other fronts....why fat? why is THAT so important? it's the same as having brown hair. or being short. or whatever. it's superficial. it has absolutely nothing to do with the worth of a person any more than gender, race, culture of origin, sexuality has.

so what's the scoop? are we so pathetic a species that we feel better about dragging others down in order to pull ourselves up than we do about tending to the cultivation of our own characters and leaving that of others alone?

really?