On Maleness, MaleID/Trans Masculinity, Expectations and Being "Less of a Man"

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When there is a thread about the value of man, and a man admits he finds sex that involves a man using his body for pleasure "disturbing", it makes my brain implode,

A. Because the essence of man is not between their legs

B. It's not in how they fuck

C. Man fucks the end

Oh btw receiver does not equate bottom nor submissive.

Snow, I get the "brain imploding" reaction and the feelings associated with that. I do.

But I really do believe Ender was saying so much more than what he alluded to early on in his post.

To me......and I really do think to Ender, as well (he can correct me if I'm wrong)......what I've pasted below is where he really wanted to end up with regard to that part of his post.

What is most critical, I think, is where we end up......not where we started. And it sounds as if Ender has done a lot of observing, questioning, and soul-searching.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

But having witnessed the diversity within the trans/male id community, I ask why I even care that others aren't like me, consider male/masculine what I don't consider male/masculine, and why a guy gives birth, why a guy doesn't start taking T the minute he admits to himself who he truly is, why a guy has sex with other guys.

The truth is, I don't care, nor judge them, and I realise that all the negative thoughts/beliefs I had regarding guys (and this including biological males who were "feminine") who did these things when I was younger was because I somehow thought that their identity/expression would somehow damage my own worldview on what is male and female, masculine and feminine, and that somehow that would damage my own expression of maleness/masculinity

[Nat]

If man and woman were of equal value in this culture, I don't think manhood would be nearly as strictly policed as it is. I have a cisgender straight male friend who is terrified of small town Texas because he is sensitive, bookish, nurturing and artsy - and he's faced gender policing and gay baiting his whole life because he doesn't conform to that impossible sized box labeled "real man."

I blame Rudyard Kipling.

But seriously, definitions of manhood involving what leisure activities one does or does not enjoy have their roots in a power structure kept in place by clear delineations between men and anybody deemed not to qualify. The rules at their strictest would exclude the vast majority of men.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

i think this conversation might fair better if we take the aspect of sex equating maleness out of it and equate all around behavior and decision making to maleness. also, i am certain we can all agree that assigning gender to life activities doesn't really work in this community either. take the physical away and focus on mental. like values, ethics, morals and all around building blocks that lead to a life that embodies a good person male or female.

when i started mentally recognizing my maleness it came in the form of studying the other male role models around me. i knew at a very young age that a good person in a male body works hard, treats people with respect no matter who they are, has faith by giving the benefit of the doubt to the fellow human being, shows loyalty to friends and family, and goes down fighting no matter what. when i got older i learned certain social ettiquettes among guys, little unwritten rules of engagement when out and about. this to me is what has helped evolve me into the guy i am today...mentally.

my masculinity certainly doesn't rely on the acceptance of my peers. what some other transguy or male id'd person thinks of my maleness really holds no weight with me. what holds weight with my fellow peers would be that they find me trustworthy, loyal, a person of my word, and all around good person that has an intention to make a positive impact.

when speaking of the ick factor Ender wasn't talking about his revulsion about his body. he was talking specifically about guys that have learned to have a healthy relationship with there bodies as a"disturbing". this is a very strong and negative term to use when describing others. he admitted it himself. now i personally dont give a shit what others think of my preferences but if we are gonna have an honest conversation lets not admit to something then take it back, because the problem doesnt lie in the fact that i am ok with my female parts, the problem is people judging me for it and finding it "disturbing". i am personally proud of the fact that i took control of my female body to enjoy it while i have it.

i read Enders post as denigrating transguys/male id'd guys that are ok with their body parts and using them during sex, not Ender denigrating ffemmes,females, or female id'd people.

i was born in the wrong body, but i am not the type of man to be held back by that because my body doesn't define me.

I have read Ender's post several times and don't see where he does this. Can you point to the sentence? It's a long post so I feel like I'm missing it.

I see where he says that for some transguys and himself included that using their female anatomy for sex can be disturbing. I am reading that as how he feels personally based on how he relates to his his own body and that it's a sentiment that others he knows have a similar feeling about....

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Tranzman

Hi Jen and Bully,

I am curious as to how each of you sees this as 2 very different things. Would you explain this please?

Thank you,

Jesse

Well, I do personally know Men who knit, it is an art form...but, I don't personally know any Men who would play on a Women's basketball team.

I know Men who are submissive, but I don't know any who want to play Women's sports. Zero.

I know men who are dancers, who do all sorts of things one might narrowly see as "women" things....none of them would consider playing Women's sports.

However,

I can see where a young person who won a basketball scholarship as a Woman would want to finish his education and play basketball.

The having a baby thing? I am working on that one Jesse, I may well be at a sticking point on that. I can't imagine you (for example) wanting to have a baby...however, I do actually know Men who given the option would want to carry a baby...but, I don't think any of them would want to play women's basketball either.

So to me, they are different subjects.

I am glad to have these discussions, I am learning a lot.

ps. the sex? I have zero problem with.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Disturbing is a strong word Thinker, so with that I do hope that other guys who have/had this thinking have that aha moment because who we are is not how we fuck, present, have between our legs.. It's by what imprint we have left behind and how we are remembered.


Thanks for the dialogue I feel it's something that should be addressed.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

i read Enders post as denigrating transguys/male id'd guys that are ok with their body parts and using them during sex, not Ender denigrating ffemmes,females, or female id'd people.

I had seen that aspect that you speak of Weatherboi but also thought I saw an ick factor about female bodies in general but I just re-read and now I don't.

It's a long post and hard to retain everything. There's nothing wrong with long posts, but it makes it hard to keep track of everything. So, anyway I do believe I was mistaken about the ick factor of female bodies in general and I apologize for that.

I still think Ender is mixing apples and oranges with bringing a man playing on a woman's basketball team in with some of the other things he is discussing.

I really didn't have any negative feelings towards the transman Thomas Beattie having babies myself. They seem like a sweet family, and I certainly don't feel he is any less of a man for having babies. I guess some women feel it is an integral part of being a woman and feel it is intruding on that. I personally don't feel that way, but then again I have never given birth or wanted to.

I agree with Nat. The main reason why the gender man, along with male and masculinity, is so heavily policed is due to sexism (unequal value of men and women).

[Thinker]

Ender did come back in to clarify, and I'm not sure if it was missed or not (pasted below).

We are all going to misunderstand, misinterpret, and just plain miss what others write here. I think if the person comes back in to explain more fully, we should give credence to that.

I've read Ender's words several times now, and I'm missing the offensive parts. I see him speaking his truth and then explaining how he looked at *why* that was his truth. I also see him explain how he has had his mind changed about a lot of what he thought before....that what was true for him once is not anymore.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

LadySnow, I think you didn't get my point. While I admitted that I found certain things disturbing to myself according to my experience and identity, the whole point of my post and thread was to say that I, along with others, should be challenging what they find disturbing, asking themselves why they feel this way, and that they should stop using the actions of others as the marker by which they create their own gender. That we should effectively cease to see certain people as "lesser men"/"less masculine" just because of the way society/one's surroundings and personal perspectives has come to formulate what is masculine/feminine/male/female etc.

So yes, you are absolutely right, however, I think you took one part of my post out of its context since that is not what I was saying at all. Please see my comments in the context of the entire post.

Thanks.

[weatherboi]

isn't this thread supposed to be about the maleness,male id/trans masculinity, expectaions and being "less of a man"???

because what i see going on is the deflection of the real problem when trying to define all this. our community as a majority equates male with how they fuck...that is why it was brought up by Ender in one of the first points of his original post and how it continues to be a factor throughout the rest of it.

i mean it is great that Ender had his aha moment but how many others here(male and female)still feel the way he did and therefore creating the less than factor and perpetuating it???

[adorable]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Well, I do personally know Men who knit, it is an art form...but, I don't personally know any Men who would play on a Women's basketball team.

I know Men who are submissive, but I don't know any who want to play Women's sports. Zero.

I know men who are dancers, who do all sorts of things one might narrowly see as "women" things....none of them would consider playing Women's sports.

However,

I can see where a young person who won a basketball scholarship as a Woman would want to finish his education and play basketball.

The having a baby thing? I am working on that one Jesse, I may well be at a sticking point on that. I can't imagine you (for example) wanting to have a baby...however, I do actually know Men who given the option would want to carry a baby...but, I don't think any of them would want to play women's basketball either.

So to me, they are different subjects.

I am glad to have these discussions, I am learning a lot.

ps. the sex? I have zero problem with.

I played on the boys lacrosse team in high school. There was a girls team. I chose to play with the boys and where I live - in our illusion of acceptance - they would never tell a girl they couldn't. (Girls have played on the boys HS football team here too.)

I chose to play on the boys team because it was more violent. The girls team didn't allow checking. There was boy on my team who HATED the violence, he was a good player though. The getting beat up thing on the field he didn't go for. He would cry after games and the coach would tell him to stop being a sissy. The other boys picked on him for it...I bet $100 that if he could have played on the girls team without getting his ass kicked for it that he would have liked too.

I went to meetings in the boys locker room just like everyone else. The coach would yell out "girl in the locker room" and they all knew that meant to cover themselves quick. The boys on the team never said anything about me being a girl on the team. They liked me. The coach liked me too because I was rough and played well. The other teams didn't get it and usually had some hot shit to say (only after the game when I took off my helmet and they figured out I was a girl) and we would all end up in fist fights.


With society the way it is - can we really know how many men would like to play on women's teams? We know that women would like to (and in some cases do) play on men's teams. I would personally like to play for the Yankee's. But I don't think we can know that unless it became socially acceptable for men to say so.

[Jesse]

I feel that we ALL simply cannot afford to judge ANYONE, be they male, female, of color, not of color, kink, non-kink WHATEVER they be or we think them to be.

As some point everyone or at least the majority of people are going to have to grasp that we do not get to place our judgments on others. Hell, we judge our our own selves as deeply as we do everyone else, and we wonder why there is so much low self esteem and the likes thereof?

If true and full equality for each of us is ever going to happen, it will have to begin in the mind, then followed through with the actions that make up equality.

Jesse

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

isn't this thread supposed to be about the maleness,male id/trans masculinity, expectaions and being "less of a man"???

because what i see going on is the deflection of the real problem when trying to define all this. our community as a majority equates male with how they fuck...that is why it was brought up by Ender in one of the first points of his original post and how it continues to be a factor throughout the rest of it.

i mean it is great that Ender had his aha moment but how many others here(male and female)still feel the way he did and therefore creating the less than factor and perpetuating it???

Speaking for myself, I do not feel that way. And I have no doubt, like you, that there are others who will come to this thread who have those feelings/opinions.

The fact that Ender said it and shared his process for coming through to the other side of it is critically important, in my opinion. If someone reading his post is still stuck in that place, then perhaps reading what he shared and what others will share will help them make that shift as well.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

isn't this thread supposed to be about the maleness,male id/trans masculinity, expectations and being "less of a man"???

because what i see going on is the deflection of the real problem when trying to define all this. our community as a majority equates male with how they fuck...that is why it was brought up by Ender in one of the first points of his original post and how it continues to be a factor throughout the rest of it.

i mean it is great that Ender had his aha moment but how many others here(male and female)still feel the way he did and therefore creating the less than factor and perpetuating it???

I hear you and want you to know that how people fuck does not affect me in any way..including how it pertains to gender.

Originally Posted by adorable

I played on the boys lacrosse team in high school. There was a girls team. I chose to play with the boys and where I live - in our illusion of acceptance - they would never tell a girl they couldn't. (Girls have played on the boys HS football team here too.)

I chose to play on the boys team because it was more violent. The girls team didn't allow checking. There was boy on my team who HATED the violence, he was a good player though. The getting beat up thing on the field he didn't go for. He would cry after games and the coach would tell him to stop being a sissy. The other boys picked on him for it...I bet $100 that if he could have played on the girls team without getting his ass kicked for it that he would have liked too.

I went to meetings in the boys locker room just like everyone else. The coach would yell out "girl in the locker room" and they all knew that meant to cover themselves quick. The boys on the team never said anything about me being a girl on the team. They liked me. The coach liked me too because I was rough and played well. The other teams didn't get it and usually had some hot shit to say (only after the game when I took off my helmet and they figured out I was a girl) and we would all end up in fist fights.


With society the way it is - can we really know how many men would like to play on women's teams? We know that women would like to (and in some cases do) play on men's teams. I would personally like to play for the Yankee's. But I don't think we can know that unless it became socially acceptable for men to say so.

You don't live in Tennessee do you? lol.

I played boys soccer and actually wanted to be a boy and often still do/and even think I am in my head....however, I do not know any Men who want to play Women's sports.

and I said I. I did not say society, just I, me. People I know.

There may be tons of guys who do want to play women's sports, but I doubt many of them live in TN.

Is society right? usually not.

Originally Posted by Tranzman

I feel that we ALL simply cannot afford to judge ANYONE, be they male, female, of color, not of color, kink, non-kink WHATEVER they be or we think them to be.

As some point everyone or at least the majority of people are going to have to grasp that we do not get to place our judgments on others. Hell, we judge our our own selves as deeply as we do everyone else, and we wonder why there is so much low self esteem and the likes thereof?

If true and full equality for each of us is ever going to happen, it will have to begin in the mind, then followed through with the actions that make up equality.

Jesse

Maybe that is the thing, we judge ourselves so extremely, we expect other people to?

I think we are pack animals and it is inherent in our genetic makeup to be suspicious of anyone different.

[Jesse]

I see what you are saying Apocalipstic. Just one small correction if I may. It is not inherent in pack animals to be suspicious of anyone different. Rather, that too is learned behavior that comes from being the victim of prey animals, oppressors etc.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

...snip

Maybe that is the thing, we judge ourselves so extremely, we expect other people to?

I think we are pack animals and it is inherent in our genetic makeup to be suspicious of anyone different.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Tranzman

I see what you are saying Apocalipstic. Just one small correction if I may. It is not inherent in pack animals to be suspicious of anyone different. Rather, that too is learned behavior that comes from being the victim of prey animals, oppressors etc.

Either way.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

like values, ethics, morals and all around building blocks that lead to a life that embodies a good person male or female.

I was thinking about this and how it applies to my day-to-day. And also how it can apply to some of Ender's original post...

I play a lot of poker. Unfortunately, 90-95% of the other players at the tables are men. I say "unfortunately" because I would really love to see more women playing......but that's a whole other topic.

There is no shortage of assholes at a poker table; those of you who play regularly will most likely agree. I don't say much when playing, but I do speak up when inappropriate or off-color comments are made......or if I feel someone at the table is bullying someone else (in some way other than just poker play).

It is *rare*.......extremely rare......that I'm met with support or with the offending party apologizing to whomever he was speaking. More often than not, I get comments like......"Oh, are you the table captain?" "What? You can say whatever but I can't?" (That one never makes sense because I'm not usually talking at the table.) My favorite of late... A young guy got knocked out of the tournament, stood up and said, "Somebody knock Mr. Cool out over there."

When all of this is going on, I get that "hot" feeling.......kinda anxious. I don't like confrontation, but I *despise* hateful, sexist, or racist comments. To be honest, more than anything else it is usually bullying types of behavior that I see. Regardless of what it is, I don't ever want any one person to feel he/she is standing alone.

And I think about it all after the fact... I wonder what these other guys are thinking when they're sitting there spitting and wanting to rip off my head. I wonder if they think I'm a candy ass.....or a goody-goody....or...."less of a man".....because I'm not chiming in on whatever happens to be the hot topic. And not only because I'm not chiming in but because I speak to the contrary when I feel they've crossed a critical line or when, more importantly, someone else at the table now feels threatened or unsafe.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Nat

If man and woman were of equal value in this culture, I don't think manhood would be nearly as strictly policed as it is. I have a cisgender straight male friend who is terrified of small town Texas because he is sensitive, bookish, nurturing and artsy - and he's faced gender policing and gay baiting his whole life because he doesn't conform to that impossible sized box labeled "real man."

I blame Rudyard Kipling.

But seriously, definitions of manhood involving what leisure activities one does or does not enjoy have their roots in a power structure kept in place by clear delineations between men and anybody deemed not to qualify. The rules at their strictest would exclude the vast majority of men.

As the mother of a bookish, nerdy, dramatic, sensitive son who prefers cooking to sports and likes his fingernails long....I appreciate this post.

My son is barely 13, and is just peeking at puberty, but already I've heard the "gay" rumblings. It makes me nuts. Whether it turns out that he's gay or straight....I love him....he's my only child and one I thought I'd never have. It just makes me crazy that people have decided his sexuality for him based on the way he runs or throws a ball (or doesn't).

He is a boy. He will be a man. How he defines that is up to him - not society's screwy criteria.

[EnderD_503]

Ok, wow, there is a lot that has been written here that I really touch on and clarify. A few people have made some assumptions about what I wrote, so I want to quote myself to clarify my own words from my original post.

To address weatherboi’s assumptions about my post:

when speaking of the ick factor Ender wasn't talking about his revulsion about his body. he was talking specifically about guys that have learned to have a healthy relationship with there bodies as a"disturbing".

This isn’t what I said nor intended to imply at all, actually. I admitted no such thing as far as my current beliefs. I assume you are referring to this portion of my original post:

enjoying using their female anatomy during sex (something, which I know is a disturbing subject for many of us, myself included, yet I still think we should avoid judging those who do as somehow lesser men/not legitimately trans/maleId)

To clarify, my use of the term “disturbing” here is not saying that I am disturbed by other transmen/male identities using their female anatomy during sex. Within the greater context of my post (honestly, it seems like people saw that one snippet and stopped reading, because I actually clarify this later on), it is meant to say that the notion of using the anatomy I was born with during sex disturbs me, not that others doing so disturbs me. Due to the fact that I feel an extreme disconnect between the anatomy I was born with and the anatomy my mind thinks should have been in its place, I feel a sense of violation or potential violation against my physical self if I am forced to think of my female anatomy being touched during sex.

Even writing this to explain it to you is painful and, yes, disturbing for me (though not because I think it disturbing for others to have that preference, but simply because on a personal level it brings me a lot of psychological turmoil), but I understand that I need to in order to clarify.

I also understand that for many FtMs and MtFs and related identities, anything that acknowledges the anatomy they were born with or using that anatomy that they feel disconnected with is disturbing to them. I am trying to take this feeling (that is familiar among many who experience some kind of disphoria) as an example of what I was trying to combat with my original post.

I realise that a part of my post is me telling my story, and that may be confusing for some people, so let me get to the end conclusion, and one of the primary points of this thread. Again another quotation from my original post (put parts of my response in brackets):

Yet why do we see a transman as less legitimate if he’s given birth? As though somehow his individual expression has a negative impact on the way other transmen are seen? [Which I do not see it to be, but this was brought up in the Kye thread, where there were people who stated that when a transman acts/does such things as give birth or existing in the realm of women/females, he is somehow keeping other transmen from being taken seriously. This was all written in that thread by various posters, this isn’t me making things up off the top of my head] I was watching a youtube video a while back where one guy (biologically female, but identified as a man/male and fully nearly fully "transitioned") in his 20’s was saying that he was upset with the portrayal of the transgender character in the L Word (don't remember the guy's name since I don’t watch the L Word), and more specifically because the writers had the transguy become pregnant. I [/I]understand[/I] why this would upset many transguys, and the idea of such a thing happening to myself disturbs me greatly. Yet I recognise that it disturbs me because of my own identity…yet what does my identity have to do with the many transguys out there who have had children before they began their transition, or even after their transition?

That is really the climax, I guess you could say, of my entire post, and my thoughts on my own evolution, as well as many of the comments made in the Kye thread. That certain things happening to my body disturb me because of the way I personally see myself, identify myself. However, I recognise that this has nothing to do with other people, and only myself. How others identify, and how they choose to present their own bodies, use their own bodies, and interact with their own bodies is separate from what I do. I actually state many times throughout my original post that I hold no negative beliefs, opinions or judgements whatsoever as far as what an individual chooses to do with his/her body. My point is that we should all be overcoming certain objections we have to the way people live their lives, express themselves, identify, the decisions they make and realise that it's not what they're doing, but our own insecurities.

@Bulldog:

But Ender also throws in things like a man playing on a woman's team. When I read transmen's comments on that, I saw them as recognizing the privilege involved and also as a man they would want to play with their peers- not that they saw Kye as less of a man for playing on a woman's team. To me those are two entirely different things.

That you talk about transmen and so on wanting to “play with their peers,” this is, once again, limiting a man to an area that he should, according to a binary, feel he belongs in. That his male sex/gender determines that all men/males are his peers, while women/females are not. A transmen/male identified individual on a female team is not necessarily not playing with his peers. By claiming that a transman/male id is not within his “peer group” by playing on a female team, one continues to divide rather than allow people to unite. Why can a man not feel like he is among his peers when he is among females/women while still considering himself a man? This is where I want to momentarily come back to what I was saying about really feeling and thinking one’s self as male, versus stereotypical masculinity. A male who is born in a female body, yet who can only think of himself as male, does not necessarily need to relate best with other males. He can still be male in mind, “transition” fully to male physically, change his legal status to male, while still feeling he is at home among women. That is what I mean by stripping maleness down to simply the gender/sex one has always considered one’s self to be inside one’s head.

Let’s look at this forum as an example of what I’m talking about. It’s been said before that men who are born biologically male and who identify as men/male are not welcome here, yet FtMs, Transmen, Male identified folks who were born with female bodies in general, MtFs, Transwomen, Female identified folks who were born with male bodies in general, as well as those who lie somewhere in between are welcome here (as far as I’m aware, Medusa/Jack/mods correct me if I’m wrong). How do these spaces differ? Should the male identities here who reject the word “trans” as an identifier and who simply see themselves as male (yet still queer and within the b/f dynamic) leave? Are they less trans/male because they are participating on a forum that is largely female/woman identified? If they feel more at home here than on a forum geared toward heterosexual males?

Also, I wanted to clarify that my statements with regards to how I view my own body are not stating that I believe the female body to be inferior or bad or anything negative. There are MtFs who feel similarly about discussing/recognising their male anatomy. It’s the recognition of certain anatomy that don’t feel right that make a person feel uncomfortable. I’m not sure you realise how painful it is to have to wake up every morning and look at a body that isn’t you. To feel totally trapped by it. To have everyone around you refer to you as a man/woman/opposite of what you are then laugh at you for thinking otherwise, using your own body against you as “proof”, calling you crazy when you tell them you are not what they say you are. When I use the word "disturb," it really is because this kind of existence and the feeling of violation that accompanies it disturbs me, not the way others live or exist.

About the length of my posts, sorry but it’s not a topic I want to risk short general statements about. They’re long because it takes a lot of explaining, and if people don’t want to read them all the way through, please don’t just read a sentence and think it represents the post as a whole.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

@Bulldog:

That you talk about transmen and so on wanting to “play with their peers,” this is, once again, limiting a man to an area that he should, according to a binary, feel he belongs in. That his male sex/gender determines that all men/males are his peers, while women/females are not. A transmen/male identified individual on a female team is not necessarily not playing with his peers. By claiming that a transman/male id is not within his “peer group” by playing on a female team, one continues to divide rather than allow people to unite. Why can a man not feel like he is among his peers when he is among females/women while still considering himself a man? This is where I want to momentarily come back to what I was saying about really feeling and thinking one’s self as male, versus stereotypical masculinity. A male who is born in a female body, yet who can only think of himself as male, does not necessarily need to relate best with other males. He can still be male in mind, “transition” fully to male physically, change his legal status to male, while still feeling he is at home among women. That is what I mean by stripping maleness down to simply the gender/sex one has always considered one’s self to be inside one’s head.

Ender I never said men and women couldn't be peers or couldn't play sports together. I don't think a man playing sports with women is less a man than a man who plays sports with men.

Many transmen have said both publicly and privately to me they don't think a man should be playing on a women's team and don't understand why they would want to in the first place. I don't think it has anything to do with them thinking anyone is less of a man at all. To me they are recognizing the privileged aspects of it. I totally get why men would want to play sports with other men. It makes sense to me.

Co-ed sports- I have seen rather dismal results, although I think theoretically it could work. I have seen co-ed softball teams where there are rules on how many women must be on the team and field at one time. The women are stuck in right field and other places less likely to see a lot of action. They play the minimum amount of innings and when the ball is hit their way a man jumps in front of them to catch the ball.

Even in mixed gay men/lesbian volleball play I have seen the men jump in front of the women to make a play on the ball.

Again, none of this has to happen, but it often does.

I do agree with you that a man does not have to always relate best to men. I see men who most of their close friends are women. This is also something that doesn't surprise me.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I am very interestrd ion knowing ay what point men become Men. Is it when they say they do?

What separates men and women?

Is there a difference?

If men can play on womens teams and have babies...is gender important at all?

I sincerely am asking.

I'm happy you brought this up, apocalipstic! I think the questions you've asked are questions often asked by many in society as well, and sometimes I think they are spawned by fear of an unknown future, or perhaps living in a world where they no longer have a clear use of definitions/categories that have been present for centuries and longer. Or maybe it's just not being able to grasp how we would interact as people. I don't know.

As far as men becoming Men, in my opinion a man is a man when he thinks it. Being born thinking one's gender/sex isn't a choice. It isn't a "today I become male/man," and that's part of the reason I have issues with the term "transition." Thinking myself as male is not a choice I made, nor a choice others have made. I had no more choice in it than a biological male who takes for granted that his brain and body are united.

A person doesn't necessarily just transform into their gender/sex with surgeries and hormone therapy. They always were what they were no matter what he or she underwent to physically change, and that is not dependant on what others think of the person. But it can be painful to see and hear what others think of them as far as their gender/sex. Young trans children don't often question their gender until they are forced to question their gender by society, which usually happens at a young age. When someone is male despite their biologically, they simply are male. They don't become male. I'm not sure if that makes sense. The problem is that society is dependant on the visual, when what identifies him as male when he first begins to be conscious of his sex/gender is psychological.

So in modern society there are two processes of "being": 1)what a person understands/know/considers of themselves, 2)what the rest of society sees/acknowledges/believes. That's where the problems start, imo.

As for what separates men and women, I think that question is becoming more and more complicated. There is always an exception, and the more we learn the more we realise that exception to the rule isn't alone. To me, the only thing that might be said to separate all men (biologically male or otherwise) from all women (again, biologically female or otherwise) is the way the brain interprets itself. Does it inherently understand itself as "she" or "he" or something else entirely? What does it picture when it pictures itself? The mind always knows what it is, but at some point the body catches up (or in some cases it can't due to individual circumstances) and only, then, does the average modern person recognise the individual as they've always understood themselves to be.

Is there a difference? I think people like to create more differences than actually exist. Yes, there are physical/biological differences between those born female and those born male. But man and woman are abstract concepts, imo, unlike claiming someone as biologically/neurologically male or female. And even male and female are becoming abstract as the scope of what humans are capable of technologically continues to change, not to mention as we become more and more aware of the complexity of the human brain and human gender and sexuality. I think the "differences" differ from individual to individual.

As far as your last question, my question is: should gender be important at all? Do we even need to say "gender is important/not important." To some people it is, to others it isn't. I think a big part of the reason why many of us here consider it important is because society often refuses to recognise us as we are.

I know why exploring, writing and speaking about gender is important in the modern age where there is still a lot of discrimination and misunderstanding, and I fully support and participate in that. But should gender, in a better, more ideal future, be important? Why should it be important if/when, in the future, everyone is accepted as they are? Or, I guess what I mean is: does gender have to be important to everyone/society at large? To personalise it: I know myself to be male, inherently (in that I know inherently, not that I am inherently biologically male, since, unfortunately, I wasn't born the way I would have wanted). I think about it a lot today and consider it an important part of my life today, yet when I think about why, the answer largely revolves around the fact that I've spent most of my life not being recognised as male. That is why it became so important. Because I didn't have school programmes telling me about my gender/sex and sexuality in school like most others around me. Because discrimination and misinformation and invisibility still exists in society.

If the world didn't make judgements about us, would we have to spend so much time thinking about the importance of our gender? I don't know, I've never lived in such a world.

Ultimately, the sum of a man/transman/male is not that he has given birth, or impregnated another, or slept with someone of the same/opposite sex/gender, or done whatever it is he's done. It's who he understands and knows himself to be beyond all the additional interests, preferences and actions that have been gendered by human society. Those gendered factors don't make a man a man...if that were enough then every tom boy in the world would be a man/boy because they have traditionally masculine interests, or might not want to give birth, or whatever it is that makes them stereotypically incongruent with what is "female/feminine." But they don't, and they aren't men, at the end of the day, because they don't identify, recognise or understand themselves as such.

Again, hopefully I'm making some sense.

@Bulldog:

Many transmen have said both publicly and privately to me they don't think a man should be playing on a women's team and don't understand why they would want to in the first place. I don't think it has anything to do with them thinking anyone is less of a man at all. To me they are recognizing the privileged aspects of it. I totally get why men would want to play sports with other men. It makes sense to me.

Co-ed sports- I have seen rather dismal results, although I think theoretically it could work. I have seen co-ed softball teams where there are rules on how many women must be on the team and field at one time. The women are stuck in right field and other places less likely to see a lot of action. They play the minimum amount of innings and when the ball is hit their way a man jumps in front of them to catch the ball.

Many transmen may have said this to you. It may make sense to you and others that men would want to play sports with other men and not women. It is still possible for a transman/male id to feel otherwise, even if the majority don't feel that way. I don't think those who don't feel the way the majority do should be judged or shunned from women's teams because they feel differently. They do exist. My question is: if there is a transman (not on T) who prefers to play on female teams rather than male teams (despite that other transmen may not feel the same way), why is it a problem? If he is more comfortable among women than men, why would he be disrespectful of his female teammates? I don't think this disrespect is a rule.

The example of jumping in front of the ball, placing women where they'll see the least amount of action is often based on the premise that women aren't naturally athletically inclined and would miss/not perform properly etc....I don't see why a transguy/male id who was not on T would even do these things if, hormonally, he is on an even playing field with his teammates beyond what innate ability he may or may not have been given, or the product of dedication to practice. Obviously, everyone on a top notch team is dedicated to the sport, so it's not as though there are unwilling participants who don't give it their all.

Someone who is on T is a different issue, imo, since testosterone accelerates the rate of strength/speed/muscle gains, despite that there are female athletes who could match the strength/speed of many male athletes (though often they have to worker harder to get there).

[BullDog]

As far as the men jumping in front of the men- I was referring to co-ed teams I have observed. I wasn't referring to transmen. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

A man can prefer to play with females, but if he doesn't think about the consequences of being a man in a group of women as far as how that can change the group dynamics, then I think he is not thinking about his privilege as being seen and interacted with as a man in a group of women. To me this is quite problematic when we live in a very sexist world and women have fought hard to have their own sports and even to be able to play at all. If he is aware and this is discussed with his team mates it could possibly work.