Female Bodies Across Gender Identities

[Dragonfly]

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED.

I know of one bio male for sure that uses stalls because he doesn't like anyone to see his parts. I don't think the female gender is the only feelings to be considered with this topic. Males do not like to be objectified and they need and deserve privacy too! I know men who will not even fart around a woman. These types def do NOT want females in the bathroom when they "go".

But I use the men's bathroom and dressing rooms as I please. It depends on how I am dressed that day, it really does. Like I already said, it's usually the little ole ladies that I try not to upset. So far no one has stopped me. Laughed or whispered yeah. But I have never had a lady drag their kid out of the men's restroom cause I was in there. That has happened in the ladies room. I really know how you felt Jess in that moment. Queer does NOT = child molester!

Gender separation is done for the purpose of privacy and safety, but if someone who is sexually attracted to one gender is in the same rooms as that gender... well logically it seems to defeat the purpose anyway. I was just musing how it could be solved socially world wide that would be accepted by hetero and queer cultures... as well as be non discriminating about gender Id's.

Perving is eww. I wish I had worded that sentence differently, (or combined the woman man statement as one sentence) . Without the sentence that followed it, I can see where someone would be offended by Bit responding eww if only that sentence is quoted. As Medusa specified, its ok to say eww about perving. Its the post as a whole that may cause hurt feelings if only one gender is what you say eww about.

I think Medusa just wanted to make the point that It isn't ok to say woman on woman restroom perving is eww and not include the men on men bathroom perving too because those statements were wrote together... to be less discriminating in general. That was why I wrote about both together. And when you specify "That one line really bothers me" and quote only the woman on woman part... well it can be even more offensive.

I am sure Bit didn't mean that post to be like this at all...so please everyone remember that there has been some hurt feelings around BF community that makes some feel unwelcome or think that others are saying they dont belong at BF sites ... Some things you just don't say in public, or you word it positive not negative. No one minds when you simply say I am into... but I am not into....

And if ya'll wanna say eww I would be soo grossed out if Amelia were to come on to me, I wouldnt care one little bit. BUT same person saying the same thing about one of my friends would get a defensive reaction out of me. I am not offended being told I am not someone's type. I AM offended when someone causes pain to the community in general.

[BullDog]

Amelia, I think you made some really great points about the way public spaces such as restrooms and dressing rooms assume 2 genders and that people are heterosexual, which is so not the case and causes lots of confusion and difficulty.

Unfortunately the reality is that a majority of violent crimes are committed by men against women. Of course there are women who can physically assault women or men as well as men who can assault other men, but these do not occur as frequently. So women in places like public restrooms or dressing rooms can feel uncomfortable if they perceive men in the room. I do understand this.

As a female I can also feel uncomfortable in dressing rooms with lots of men in them. When I am feeling uncomfortable I will carry my clothes over to the womens dressing room. I don't use Mens restrooms. I was a custodian in college for a few summers, and no offense to anyone but I would prefer to never see the inside of a Mens restroom ever again. To me the cleanliness factor between the two was no comparison.

I myself tend to be the most uncomfortable around young males, especially when they are in groups, because they are the ones who have hassled me the most. It doesn't mean all young males are bad.

I don't usually get hassled in public restrooms. I am perceived to be female most of the time, although not always. Awhile ago I had gone to the barbershop to get my hair cut. Then I wanted to get lunch. As I was going into the restaurant a group of people was going in. One was an elderly woman in a walker. After I had ordered my lunch I went to use the restroom. I always use the Womens. It was a small bathroom with 2 stalls. After I was behind the stall, I noticed someone came in. I could see the walker. I tried to get out of the bathroom as soon as I could just to make sure I would not startle an elderly woman in a walker in case I confused her. I was not trying to be ageist or anything. For all I know she could have turned around and said, "nice haircut." But I didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable in a small public space so I got out as soon as I could. So I do try to be aware that in some situations I might make someone uncomfortable in female spaces because I am not the typical female they might be expecting.

There are some unisex bathrooms where I live, but they are one stall like in some restaurants. I do use them when they are available.

Bit, thank you for participating in the thread. To me it was clear it was the perving you were uncomfortable with, not gay women. You said ANYONE.

Jess, yes I think as females we have some of the same issues that femmes have and that is one of the reasons I started the thread, so we could all talk together. I have also had parents physically pull their children farther away from me in public. I love children, so yeah that is hurtful to me.

Thank you everyone who is participating in the thread. I look forward to more good convo.

[Bit]

I'm going to try one more time, and if it still isn't clear, I'll drop it.

We were talking about the discomfort of being naked in a semi-public place. We were talking about being "perved on"--in other words, ogled in a sexual manner while we are naked in a semi-public place--by strangers. We were talking about privacy.

The context was dressing rooms, so I thought about the dressing rooms I have used. I've almost never used an empty women's dressing room; they've almost always been teeming with children, teens, and women I have presumed were straight. I seldom see anyone I can recognize as a fellow queer in a dressing room.

When Amelia followed the logical path of the discussion and talked about how dressing rooms are segregated for sexual safety, but society turns a blind eye on having queers use same sex dressing rooms, she said in an ironic way--and I did catch the irony--"Gay Women can perve on each other."

Two things. The first is that I immediately identified as a Gay Woman being perved on. Otherwise, WHY would I have any kind of reaction, right?

The second is, all those children, teens and straight women flashed into my mind, and I want N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with "perving on" any of them. I don't want that idea anywhere near me. It is distasteful in the extreme to me. It is the specter of "perverted queers" and pedophilia. My reaction to that is ALWAYS going to be "get it AWAY from me NOW."

I personally do not want to BE perved on, nor do I ever want to be ASSOCIATED IN ANY WAY with perving on another person--ANY PERSON--in a dressing room. That is completely and utterly distasteful to me.

In this context--and I emphasize that, IN THIS CONTEXT--"perving on" someone is not looking at a picture posted for public consumption in a gallery and smiling. In this context, "perving on" someone else is looking at their naked body with non-consensual sexual intent; it is an invasion of their privacy. That kind of sexual invasion is completely and utterly distasteful to me, no matter who does it. I do not want to be associated with it in any way.

[Jett]

Alright then... what was the thread about?

Yeah I really don't have an issue about which dressing room I use... until I read this thread I guess I didn't realize I don't really think about it. But now I'm thinking how it doesn't seem terribly fair that I feel I have the right to use the mens at my leisure... but then would take issue with a run of the mill straight male wanting to use the female rooms.

Though gay women in there obviously doesn't skiv me at all... interesting but it makes sense because I know (for me) it has everything to do with history.

[gaymer]

being female-bodied means i am more often than not mistaken for being a woman. and therefore a "she". and not the "he" i am.

being female means i have to deal with my vagina. i bleed. gawd, i HATE bleeding. i have to go to the gyno.

being female means i have to deal with my chest even though i wish it was flat. i guess i could change this. i have thought about it. and i dont do it for several reasons: i am not a male or a man and dont want to be assumed for one, i have had that part of my body all my life- what if i miss it?, major surgery freaks me out. eventually i will have to have a mamogram.

it's interesting... when i dream about myself and my body... my chest is always flat and my genital area is always a weird fog.

i love having a vagina for the pleasure i receive from it. i love being fisted. i regulary use my vibrator. i do not enjoy receiving oral sex except for every once in a great while and then it's usually pretty quick experience. i love getting fucked by dicks and fists. i HATE just a finger pokin me. i LOVE the way my strap hits my parts when i am fucking someone with my dick.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Amelia

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED. .

Can someone please explain why gender separation is flawed? I find it imperative to my safety and comfort to use public fitting rooms and women's bathrooms with multiple stalls without the risk that a man may intrude. I require women's space for the same reasons I have always required it. Those reasons include privacy, but that's only one part of the equation. Do I feel unsafe in closed quarters when men are present? You bet I do. Am I a frail, delicate person who lives in fear? Ha! You would have to have met me to know why that's such an outrageously funny thought.

I live and work in the real world. I work with huge men, often well over 6' tall and very well fed, who congratulate themselves for not having assaulted the women in their lives, ("Hey, I'm a good guy. I never even hit her!"). These men sometimes need to be told that it's not OK to use racial slurs. One fairly large man was recently thrown off the job for assaulting a cleaning woman in the bathroom. Many of us agreed that he would have faced NO REPERCUSSIONS had that happened even as recently as a decade ago. Are these the people that I'm supposed to feel comfortable with in a room where they are exposing their penises and my pants are down? When I hear people in my community calling for erasure of gendered bathrooms I want to ask them whether they're crazy or just naive. My friends who work in academia can theorize about gender from the luxury of their libraries. I don't have that option.

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

Bathrooms and fitting rooms are traditional common, recognised women's spaces, but there are some other really important venues. For instance, what about girls' and women's sports? If you attempt to erase gender separation from sports you will only erase women from sports. Period. Perhaps this won't be as obvious to anyone who is too young to have played girl's sports, or tried to, in the U.S. before Title 9. Take my word for it. It's better now. Unless a person is born intersexed, a female body no matter how masculine, will be unlikely to be competitive with a male body in most competitive sports. There will always be exceptions. I was competitive with boys when I ran on their track teams before Title 9, but that was very rare. This is another place where we, butch and femme, are the same. Sports are played with bodies. Female bodies are different than male bodies. Like it or not, that's due to naturally occurring physical size and hormones.

So, at the risk of derailing this fine thread, why is gender separation flawed?

[Jess]

Thanks Cheryl for a great point of view. I guess when I was first reading the bathroom/ changing room issue, I was thinking more about the discomfort I feel ( and impose upon) other women in these spaces and not necessarily the discomfort and risk involved in sharing such a private space with men.

I appreciate the chance to remember that yes, I DO feel threatened in vulnerable spaces with men.

There is no easy answer or quick fix. I will just continue the Kegel exercises and try to keep holding it..LOL!

Good to see you posting here!

[BullDog]

Thank you Cheryl and Jess. I feel the same way Jess does. I am usually thinking about comfort level more than danger level, but if I think about it more I do need to be careful. I don't use Mens bathrooms, but I will use a Mens changing room if it's not too crowded and I am feeling ok about it. Otherwise I carry my clothes to the Womens dept.

Anyone can be a good person. Anyone can physically or sexually assault someone. However, the fact of the matter is a majority of these types of crimes are committed by men against women. So it would be naive and dangerous to just all of sudden do away with all gendered public spaces, in my opinion. We need to work on the underlying issues and what is causing people to be potentially unsafe in the first place. I do like unisex for bathrooms that are one stall. That's only feasible for small public spaces.

I also do try and be aware that if someone does mistake me for male (usually only very temporary) that I do what I can to make them feel at ease. If a woman thinks a male is a woman's space the gut reaction might be fear. People definitely have narrow definitions of what a woman or female looks like or is, and it can be hurtful and uncomfortable to us to feel we can't even pee out in public, but women do need to be cautious around males they don't know. If they don't know you and don't know you are a woman/female they are likely to be wary. They have good reason to be.

[Jett]

I totally agree with your line of thinking Cheryl... I don't think gender separation is flawed, I think it's crucial some gender spaces remain separate. The separating by sexuality doesn't fly with me because though sure same sex "abuse" does happen... when's the last time anyone's heard of a lesbian rapist terrorizing the women of a city? So I'll be honest whenever I hear that retort that "it's not just the men who are violent" I feel like flipping the bird and walking because that's really splitting hairs it's finest and feels dismissive to the plight of violence against women by men, like blowing off something that needs more awareness not downplay.

That said, I've used the mens john, and mens changing room as I said I don't think about that last one as it's the dept. I'm shopping in. I need to start thinking though, masculine or not the implications for a female in that space are be the same. I think similar to Bull and Jess I've been more thinking comfort level, because when I do use the womens room(s) I do feel like I may startle or make someone uncomfortable though it's usually only for a moment. But bottom line it certainly doesn't make me personally uncomfortable for my own sake to be in or use female only spaces but it does in mens.

And as it's been said I don't feel "afraid", but I do feel very "aware" when I'm in men's spaces or men are in certain spaces, and I don't think you have to be afraid to be smart about controlling those cross interactions whenever possible. I don't think I can justify using the mens anything room at this point, for what end? That I don't make someone do a double take at me and then the sign on the door? They almost always have the "aha" moment anyway and we all survive the 10 second ordeal.

Thanks for making me re-think...
Metro

[BullDog]

Yes Cheryl, Jess and Metro's posts are definitely making me think about things more. I do think butches are so used to tuning out some of the reactions from people around us (stares, comments etc) that we sometimes may overlook our own safety. That isn't always the case, but I know I can be pretty oblivious at times. I have noticed when I am with femme(s) or straight women that they seem to be more hyper aware of safety issues and the environment around them than I am. I do think as butches we tend to tune some things out sometimes. Then again, other butches might have been subjected to a lot more dangerous situations than I have and be a lot more on guard and aware.

I think Metro also makes a good point that if a butch's presence is only likely to cause maybe a 10 second double take, it shouldn't cause us to feel like we can't be in a woman's space, particularly if we are looking out for our own safety as we as comfort zone.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes Cheryl, Jess and Metro's posts are definitely making me think about things more. I do think butches are so used to tuning out some of the reactions from people around us (stares, comments etc) that we sometimes may overlook our own safety. That isn't always the case, but I know I can be pretty oblivious at times. I have noticed when I am with femme(s) or straight women that they seem to be more hyper aware of safety issues and the environment around them than I am. I do think as butches we tend to tune some things out sometimes. Then again, other butches might have been subjected to a lot more dangerous situations than I have and be a lot more on guard and aware.

I think Metro also makes a good point that if a butch's presence is only likely to cause maybe a 10 second double take, it shouldn't cause us to feel like we can't be in a woman's space, particularly if we are looking out for our own safety as we as comfort zone.

All good points, Bulldog (and Met). Thanks for this.

[Darth Denkay]

I feel infinitely safer in the men's room instead of the women's room. I can't go in a women's room without, at the least, stares and angry looks. More times than not hateful things are said. Now, all of this I could handle. But I've been verbally and physically threatened, pulled out twice by security. The women's room does not feel safe to me.

I have never - and I do mean never - had even a sliver of trouble using the men's room. It seems as though men go in the restroom, do their thing, don't talk or look at anyone, and leave. Women go in and tend to look at others there. Because of the odd phenomenon of women going to the restroom in herds there are often folks hanging around inside waiting for their friends, carrying on conversations. Also, women spend time in there primping and such. It seems as though it's pretty much a guarantee that in the women's room someone will look at me and I will be hassled to some degree while in the men's room no one pays a bit of attention. For me, the men's restroom feels safer than the women's restroom.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

[Stoney]

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.

[BullDog]

Stoney, thank you for your post. No you are not off topic at all. All subjects on being female bodied (present or past) and how we relate to or experience them from all genders is welcomed.

[Soon]

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”?

HowSoonIsNow, thank you so much for posting this. Our Bodies Ourselves has been such an important book and project for so many women. The book first came out in 1973 I believe.

They appear to trying to be as inclusive as possible:

"We are seeking the experience and wisdom of heterosexual, lesbian, bisexual and queer women. Perspectives from single women are encouraged, and you may define relationship as it applies to you, from monogamy to multiple partners. We are committed to including women of color, women with disabilities, trans women and women of many ages and backgrounds."

I can't wait for the new edition to come out.

[Dragonfly]

I wanted to respond to the really great points made about placing oneself in a dangerous situation for the sake of someone else's comfort. I dont think anyone should sacrifice their safety or feeling safe to make someone else feel comfortable. We shouldn't as a community promote that sort of mentality because we are not what is "wrong"... the discrimination is wrong.

I had tried to shorten my post and left out a few details about when I choose to use a men's restroom. For one, I never ever sit in any restroom or touch anything so if its dirty I dont really care. If a lady were to look under the door and see my feet she may think it is proof I am a man in there. Plus, I wash real well afterwards lol.

Also the men's dressing room is often a one stall and the womens is often multi stalled where I tend to shop.

Because of the issues I have struggled with, the fact that I am ever alone and vulnerable is a huge triumph for me. I wear men's clothes because they are concealing certain clothing layers that reduce the chances of my being raped. I do not need to remind myself I never stop thinking about how that I am never going to be 100% safe from an assault for being and looking like I do. So More often than not I carry a conceled weapon that would actually cause me more trouble should I too get dragged from the ladies room by security.

With the PTSD that I struggled with for 2 decades now I have evolved alongside very loyal men, and am rarely alone when going into those restrooms. I am usually with Foo or another friend when I am out and about. I am firends with a 90/10 ratio of gendered bio males over Queer or hetero bio females. Yeah Men are bigger than me, some of my girlfriends were bigger than me too. Last year I dated a line backer chick who could toss me over her shoulder and throw me around. lol. Safety in numbers feels safer to me but to some people safe is different things. I need to be safe from persecution and searches because I revolve my life around living with and recovering the best I can. So sometimes I personally choose the less likely risk of another attack, especially in a public restroom when I am usually accompanied everywhere I go anyway, over the daily rubbing in my face how disgusting I am to society to dress so masculine yet be so obviously female bodied. I could only pass for male back in the 80's when my skater friends had long hair and flannels too... And then only from a distance,



My daughter believes society will catch up as soon as the asshats die off. Then all that is left is a majority rule of acceptance generations. I hope so too...

[Dragonfly]

It so sucked. I hate having to go to those sections and get the look. No more malls, I'll stick to the cheaper places.

[BornBronson]

I guess you could say i've learned to love my female body,but it wasn't always like that.My teenage years were the worst.I've always dressed in men clothes,not that I ever wanted to be a man it's just that my body was never made to wear a dress.I have muscular shoulders and no ass.I would not look good in anything that was made for the female body,trust me.God gave me this body and it is who i am.I could not think of ever destroying something so beautiful.Yes,I think my body is hot.I'm 5'9 and 210lbs and have a husky body,partly due to a lot of weightlifting throughout the years.And that's also why I get called sir or mister a lot.I buy mens clothes everytime.I don't have a problem using a woman's bathroom today because I have let my hair grow long,the ladies still turn their heads,but I don't feel the need to clear my throat anymore.But I never get a second glance if I use the men's restroom,which I still use in an emergency only.Never wore make-up,plus it won't look right on my face..it just won't.In other words i'm comfortable in this old body of mine.I don't have a problem being called she,her,or woman...it is what i am.

[apretty]

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

Originally Posted by Stoney

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.