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Old 07-31-2011, 02:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DapperButch View Post
Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. They often see butch as their gender.

Just like there are some who identify as female (their sex) , as a butch (their gender), and as a woman (their gender).

Hopes that helped (I am assuming you were actually wondering?). :-)


Thanks Dapper! I knew someone would have the answer.

This kind of illustrates why I prefer to stick with lesbian - by todays standards, I think, it indicates quite clearly gender, sex, and orientation in one word.

Then again, I could be wrong about that too. LOL. I should see if there is a remedial lesbian course somewhere.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:11 PM   #22
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Ah! Kobi has the original post. Now I don't sound quite so stupid....
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:22 PM   #23
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Well... there's a real difference between the kind of identifiers you are listing and the set of widely used identifiers of gender and sex in our culture.

If this isn't the place to go into it, though, I'm fine with that.

Thanks DB.


ER... Wait a minute. You seem to have edited your original post on this. I've been responding to the original, where you listed more configurations of gender/sex identifiers.
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Ah! Kobi has the original post. Now I don't sound quite so stupid....
Yes, I edited b/c I felt like I was throwing too much info. out there when I really didn't want to get into a discussion about it. I felt that I was already being intrusive by writing in the lesbian zone, so I was seeking a way to give Kobi a short answer without having discussion follow. I did not want to say anything that would derail from any direction you all might have wanted to take this thread.

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Thanks Dapper! I knew someone would have the answer.

This kind of illustrates why I prefer to stick with lesbian - by todays standards, I think, it indicates quite clearly gender, sex, and orientation in one word.

Yes, I agree, Kobi. Lesbian is pretty clear cut!
Then again, I could be wrong about that too. LOL. I should see if there is a remedial lesbian course somewhere.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:36 PM   #24
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MsW, I want you to know, I stopped by the bakery section of the market on my way home today. I asked the cute little dyke behind the counter where I could find the Butch bread with the hard crust and soft, squishy insides.

She wasnt a dyke. She did not find Butch bread to be amusing. And, I think, I now have a reputation for being the crazy lady with early Alzheimers.

I really should check my files and see if the recall notice for my gaydar is still active.
Do not feel alone on this one Kobi..I used to have gaydar that was sharp as a tact..now in my old age I'm thinking it's dull and rusty. Of course I'm thinking most of my mind is getting dull and rusty. When my daughter has to point out to me I'm being flirted with..and I look at said flirter and all I can think is.."they are not much older than my own kids". That just puts the on the sundae.
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:03 PM   #25
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Yes, I edited b/c I felt like I was throwing too much info. out there when I really didn't want to get into a discussion about it. I felt that I was already being intrusive by writing in the lesbian zone, so I was seeking a way to give Kobi a short answer without having discussion follow. I did not want to say anything that would derail from any direction you all might have wanted to take this thread.


Dapper,

You mean I did get the definition of lesbian correct? I am pleased.

Thank you for being respectful. It is much appreciated. Tho, please keeping looking in and helping out. That is appreciated as well.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:02 PM   #26
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Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. I defined that way for many years and know quite a many butch who still does. Here the term woman is seen as being connected to a social construct, rather than it being connected to one's biology.

(Hope you were actually asking the question?)
I was actually asking. Thanks for responding. For me, I am both, female, woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:11 PM   #27
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Yes, I edited b/c I felt like I was throwing too much info. out there when I really didn't want to get into a discussion about it. I felt that I was already being intrusive by writing in the lesbian zone, so I was seeking a way to give Kobi a short answer without having discussion follow. I did not want to say anything that would derail from any direction you all might have wanted to take this thread.
Really? I do really appreciate any enlightenment on these issues no matter who is giving it or how they identify..... Although I have had issues with my local friends that would tell me how I should be raising my kid....and they never had kids....But that is for another thread
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:54 PM   #28
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I was actually asking. Thanks for responding. For me, I am both, female, woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Three for the price of one. That sounds like quite the deal, indeed.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:20 PM   #29
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reclaiming lesbian pride ?


Reclaiming it? I don't feel like I ever lost it.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:50 AM   #30
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For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:59 AM   #31
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Damn. You're good.

I'd object (mildly) to your adj/noun edict on a number of grounds--most notably, that you blur the distinction while making it--but I think this is nicely laid out.

Question: Sex = gender? They were distinguished above, I believe, at one point, but (without doing any research) I think they do equate.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:05 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

Chazz,

I think I understand your intent in posting this. However, it could be seen as a supportive thing or a controversial thing or a little bit of both.

I dont want to presume something here. So, could you elaborate a bit on your intent?
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:15 AM   #33
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Well, I am not an English Major or writer nor do I know much about grammatics or being politically correct for that matter, but I don't agree with a couple of the items. So, maybe I will say this is how they are for me.

An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun by describing, identifying, or quantifying words. An adjective usually precedes the noun or the pronoun which it modifies.

A noun is a word used to name a person, animal, place, thing, and abstract idea.

In that light, both Butch and Lesbian are adjectives for me as they describe parts of me, not all of me....Butch Lesbian Woman

Hey! Is that a new acronym? BLW? Cool beans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:22 AM   #34
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Oh, I might add I really like the book" Butch as a Noun"
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:29 AM   #35
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transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.
I am not trying to derail the thread but...

Transgender is an adjective, not a verb. People aren't transgendering.

Also, people aren't transgendered even though it is used all the time. i have even caught my self using it early on and still catch myself using transgendered at times. It can be insulting to many people within the transgender community.

It may seem like semantics but it is important.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.
I entered this discussion this morning as a moderator because we had a community member ask us to keep an eye on the conversation for fear things might get a little heated. I say that because I want to be clear that I do not identify as a lesbian. Even when that was the community I felt was a "best fit" for me, I was not able to embrace that particular identity. I tried, but I knew it was not an authentic reflection of who I was as a person.

So in coming here to catch up on things this morning, I read the post quoted above and am curious, Chazz, if you pasted this information from somewhere else or if this is how you see things?

Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).

Thinker (entered as a moderator but posting as a member)
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:00 AM   #37
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When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?


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Old 08-01-2011, 08:13 AM   #38
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Question

Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:24 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post
Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!

Thank you for your kindness. My frustration is getting in the way of my being able to answer you at the moment. Let me stew on this a bit.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:52 AM   #40
tapu
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Lesbian is a weird word. I don't mean the semantics of it, and how we're trying to define or understand it. I mean orthographically. You just don't see the letter l, s, b together in a word much. I remember how, right before and after I came out, my eyes would dart to words like Lebanese and Lisbon in the news or wherever. It's a stand-out letter sequence for me.

When I first started claiming my identity, I said I was gay. I was a gay woman. (I was not, however, a gay, which I think is derogatory, but is becoming more neutral in the plural, e.g., "Gays today want....")

There are still one-off situations where I balk at saying lesbian. Like, to an elderly person. Or too-loudly in a cafe. I don't know whether I don't want to ruin someone's lunch or what, and while I think I should analyze that fear in myself I don't much feel like it right now.

Well, those are my thoughts, and nothing more, about being and calling myself a lesbian. Thanks for a forum where I can explore it.
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