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Old 08-01-2011, 09:11 AM   #41
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I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. I feel I fought hard to earn the right to identify as a lesbian. That being said, I also love transmen and androgynous folks, as well as gender queer beings. I don't think my lesbian identity interferes with that, though.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:00 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ScandalAndy View Post
I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. I feel I fought hard to earn the right to identify as a lesbian. That being said, I also love transmen and androgynous folks, as well as gender queer beings. I don't think my lesbian identity interferes with that, though.
I am curious to know how you fought hard to earn the right to ID as Lesbian?

I know we don't thank those who have actually pioneered our rights nearly enough, those who have gone through riots, hiding who they are, those that have paved the way, so to speak. Those generationed before me. (is that a word ) ?
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:19 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TickledPink View Post
I am curious to know how you fought hard to earn the right to ID as Lesbian?

I know we don't thank those who have actually pioneered our rights nearly enough, those who have gone through riots, hiding who they are, those that have paved the way, so to speak. Those generationed before me. (is that a word ) ?
Oh, I know I owe a LOT to the warriors who came before me and paved the way for all the rights I enjoy today.

I feel I fought for my right to wear the label because of the harassment and abuse I survived from family, friends and peers and my refusal to identify differently even when i was in danger.

That being said, there are many who lost their lives or their light when it was much more dangerous back before stonewall and over the past 50 years. I was lucky.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:38 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tapu
I'd object (mildly) to your adj/noun edict on a number of grounds--most notably, that you blur the distinction while making it--but I think this is nicely laid out.

Question: Sex = gender? They were distinguished above, I believe, at one point, but (without doing any research) I think they do equate.
No, sex and gender are not the same things; they do not equate.

SEX refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

GENDER describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine. Gender is culturally constructed and varies from culture to culture.

Here's why this matters: An Editorial from The Journal of Applied Physiology

The continuing dedication by physiologists to sex-based and women’s health research comes from the understanding that although females and males share many physiological similarities, they are fundamentally different. This is a basic biological principle in all species in which sexes exist, and there is an obvious need to explore the differentiation that the evolution of sex has afforded humans and their biology, but female and male sex-based research is not the same as gender-based research. The point is that avoiding synonymous use of the terms sex and gender serves to avoid misusing the concepts of sex and gender across disciplines of science. In summary, it is appropriate to use the term sex when referring to the biology of human and animal subjects, and the term gender is reserved for reference to the self-identity and/or social representation of an individual.

Some people many not care about women's health research, but I do personally and professionally. Historically, it has lagged far behind male health research, including in funding. Mixing metaphors, syntax, nouns with verbs, adjectives and neologisms may be "play" for some people, but some of us need to know who we are talking about when we read research data. Objective reality has an essential role for some of us. Me, for one.



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Originally Posted by Thinker
Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).
Woman and man are nouns according to every dictionary I've consulted.

Yep, (some) people within the LGBTQ community have played with definitions, put spin on them, created entirely new vernaculars, neologisms.... This is, I believe, what has led to the current BV controversy. This word play has not served all of us equally well.

They who presume to name, presume to own. All this presuming has led to the disenfranchisement of female identified butches, lesbian women and Feminists in many quarters. It's been incremental, but it's been profound. Just the other night, I went to bed a butch and woke up "masculine of center".

So, I'm keeping it simple. I'm sticking to the English dictionary and my HERitage as a lesbian/butch//Feminist. Other people can do what they want, but they cannot force or intimidate me into going along with it.



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Chazz,

I think I understand your intent in posting this. However, it could be seen as a supportive thing or a controversial thing or a little bit of both.

I dont want to presume something here. So, could you elaborate a bit on your intent?
I'm good with a little bit of both.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:59 PM   #45
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My wish to rekindle lesbian pride sans the qualifiers is multifold. Part is feeling invisible as a woman and a lesbian. Part is feeling like a guest in my community as a butch. Part is feeling woman and lesbian have somehow become passe and are being phased out in the scheme of things.

My real life world is a world of lesbian women. I dont even know if there is a trans community/group here. I remember as a young woman how invigorated and validated I felt when I found the lesbian and feminist communities. I remember how proud I was to be part of the new trailblazers that would usher in a new era of creativity, development, and activism for women and lesbians. I remember soaking up every bit of information I could get my hands on, attending all the lectures, the events etc. I hadnt felt anything like it before or since.

Lately, I have been looking on the net for "lesbian" web sites or even sites that may be of interest to "lesbians". I wasnt looking for the old stuff. I was looking for the new stuff for the generations that came after us.

It has been a disappointing search thus far. I am finding many women run, lesbian in the title web sites. I was surprised to see a membership of females and males - I expect it in butch-femme but not general sites. I see many stories on beefing up (no pun intended) definitions across a wide spectrum, I see some definate blurring and almost interchangability in gender and orientation, much on relationships, fashion or lack there of, a fair amount on trans, a lot of masculine of center, a lot on variations of femme stuff ( the right words for this escapes me), a bunch on how to get laid (bookmarked those in case anyone is interested).

I didnt see anything on lesbian identity sans qualifiers, little on feminism, little on herstory.

There might be more of what I am looking for on FB but the few times I ventured there it seemed hard to navigate and pretty darn boring.

Even when chatting in real life with youngins today, they can parrot much on womens studies but it seems to be an academic exercise rather than a part of their history or their identities. They take so much for granted that we old farts had to fight for.

They have so much freedom to explore and so many more options/choices than were available back in my day. Yet they seem so unconnected to it.

At 55, I am too tired to be an activist anymore. I cant stay up late enough for the meetings.

So who's watching the store?



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Old 08-01-2011, 07:14 PM   #46
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My gender is Femme my assigned sex is Female I can also identify with woman and embrace my occasional masculinity. Physiology reports will never change that for "me" since I don't buy into the binary construct of gender.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:24 PM   #47
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I'm one of the ones watching the store. I promise.

The community as a whole is so fractured in the younger generations because identities as a whole have become passe. Nobody wants to use identifiers, they believe in fluidity and rage against a system of names and notations and labels.

I ran a campus LGBT organization for two years and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. Everyone is so locked in to what THEY support and what they believe that they don't take the time to look and see how we are all still fighting for basic rights and need to support each other. Instead it devolves into a "why should i fight for your cause when MY cause is more important to ME".

I admit, I am one of those who minored in women's studies and can parrot herstory with the best of them, but I'm also trying very hard to learn everything I can from the pioneers. Two of my professors have been fighting most of their lives for tenured positions, and refusing to closet their lesbian identities often at the expense of their job security. One is butch, the other femme, although I doubt she's appreciate being described as such. Those two women taught me more about pride, activism, and the necessity of action than any book ever could.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobi View Post

My wish to rekindle lesbian pride sans the qualifiers is multifold. Part is feeling invisible as a woman and a lesbian. Part is feeling like a guest in my community as a butch. Part is feeling woman and lesbian have somehow become passe and are being phased out in the scheme of things.

My real life world is a world of lesbian women. I dont even know if there is a trans community/group here. I remember as a young woman how invigorated and validated I felt when I found the lesbian and feminist communities. I remember how proud I was to be part of the new trailblazers that would usher in a new era of creativity, development, and activism for women and lesbians. I remember soaking up every bit of information I could get my hands on, attending all the lectures, the events etc. I hadnt felt anything like it before or since.

Lately, I have been looking on the net for "lesbian" web sites or even sites that may be of interest to "lesbians". I wasnt looking for the old stuff. I was looking for the new stuff for the generations that came after us.

It has been a disappointing search thus far. I am finding many women run, lesbian in the title web sites. I was surprised to see a membership of females and males - I expect it in butch-femme but not general sites. I see many stories on beefing up (no pun intended) definitions across a wide spectrum, I see some definate blurring and almost interchangability in gender and orientation, much on relationships, fashion or lack there of, a fair amount on trans, a lot of masculine of center, a lot on variations of femme stuff ( the right words for this escapes me), a bunch on how to get laid (bookmarked those in case anyone is interested).

I didnt see anything on lesbian identity sans qualifiers, little on feminism, little on herstory.

There might be more of what I am looking for on FB but the few times I ventured there it seemed hard to navigate and pretty darn boring.

Even when chatting in real life with youngins today, they can parrot much on womens studies but it seems to be an academic exercise rather than a part of their history or their identities. They take so much for granted that we old farts had to fight for.

They have so much freedom to explore and so many more options/choices than were available back in my day. Yet they seem so unconnected to it.

At 55, I am too tired to be an activist anymore. I cant stay up late enough for the meetings.

So who's watching the store?



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Old 08-01-2011, 07:59 PM   #48
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It took me a while before using the word lesbian to describe my sexual orientation... usually I was using the word homosexual...

For a while now, I see that the word lesbian is not only a matter of sexual orientation but an identity and it is defined differently depending on the cultural (country of origin) context and is also a question of generation.

I was surprised to read an article in Fugues (a LGBT magazine from Montréal) that many young gay women (in their teens and early 20's) found that the word "lesbienne est vieillot et représente une image de femmes démodées" which means that the word is "old" and represents the image of "outdated" women (not modern, ancient, ect...).
source: http://www.fugues.com/main.cfm?l=fr&...rticle_ID=1251
But when I speak to young hetersexual women and men, for them the word lesbian invokes: a woman who is romantically and physically involved with another woman (which by the way is how I see myself!)

So I suppose I have to use different words when addressing different crowds!

End of my rant
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:20 AM   #49
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Default cross posted

I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:27 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by OS Butch View Post
I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org


THANK YOU!!! This is a great link.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:44 AM   #51
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Default Lesbian Links?

I don't know if it is appropriate to post this here, but just in case it is, I will do my best to do a good job representing.


I am on a very small staff of individuals who write for a lesbian blog. it started off as a "A light-hearted lesbian and women's issues blog and community geared toward twenty-somethings" but since then we've grown to include an audience of all ages. I mostly write angry feminist articles, but the girls have been champs posting coming out stories and the like. I think it's worth the read for entertainment, and sometimes it can even make you think a little.

At the moment we are trying to raise money to give to the "Because I Am A Girl" project through Plan International, which goes to help rebuild the lives of girls rescued from the sex trafficking industry in India. I think it's one of our more noble undertakings.

The blog is here: ToughxCookies and here is the link to our "Causes" page.


I hope that these links will help show how the younger generation handles lesbian pride, and maybe give a bit of insight into how very differently we all view the world around us.


If this isn't the right place to post this, I would appreciate any guidance about where I should move this to. Thanks!
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:28 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ScandalAndy View Post
I don't know if it is appropriate to post this here, but just in case it is, I will do my best to do a good job representing.
I am on a very small staff of individuals who write for a lesbian blog. it started off as a "A light-hearted lesbian and women's issues blog and community geared toward twenty-somethings" but since then we've grown to include an audience of all ages. I mostly write angry feminist articles, but the girls have been champs posting coming out stories and the like. I think it's worth the read for entertainment, and sometimes it can even make you think a little.
At the moment we are trying to raise money to give to the "Because I Am A Girl" project through Plan International, which goes to help rebuild the lives of girls rescued from the sex trafficking industry in India. I think it's one of our more noble undertakings.
The blog is here: ToughxCookies and here is the link to our "Causes" page.
I hope that these links will help show how the younger generation handles lesbian pride, and maybe give a bit of insight into how very differently we all view the world around us.
If this isn't the right place to post this, I would appreciate any guidance about where I should move this to. Thanks!
****************
Andy, if "Reclaiming Lesbian Pride" is not the right place for your post-I honestly don't know where it would be! Absolutely worthy undertaking! Our young femmes and butches are exactly the right place to ensure the survival of our Lesbian Communities.

I will check it out and thank you!

Anya
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:03 AM   #53
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I've come to recognize that my online and earthly worlds do not coincide very often. Individuals and their identities are much more complex than their labels. It doesn't matter if I agree with someone's definitions, as long as they don't impose their views on me.

I'm a lesbian. That is my chief identity as far as describing who attracts me, who I love, and how I view the world. Of course, I have other identities, but they are definitely influenced by my self-view as a lesbian. For me, there is a historical and political perspective that is the context for who I am as a partner, a mother, and a worker. Coming to the point of self-understanding, self-acceptance, and a level of comfort has truly been a challenge. I won't play "your challenges have been greater than mine" game. My challenges have been representative of both the women's community at large, and what the community faced through the 70's and forward, as well as of my own struggles with family and personally. All are valid, and all have paved the way for the triumphs and challenges faced by the next generation.

When I first discovered a butch-femme online community, I was told that I was "a lesbian" not "a femme" so I didn't really belong. I do belong. I am a woman who loves butch women. I don't consider it a label, I consider it a description. Women in my community hate the idea of butch or femme, equating it with role playing or something put on. They don't understand that there is a range of self-expression just as there is a range of personal preferences. As a more feminine woman, I have been told I'm not someone's type more than once. If they can have preferences, so can I.
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:26 AM   #54
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Default Still in shock.

Ok the company I work for is zero tolerence for any kind of harrassment/bashing. It's a huge company with literally thousands of employees across the nation. Very diverse to say the least. So some co-workers (family) and I were having lunch. It just seems that family naturally gravitates to me which is wonderful for me. Anyhow, one of the young uns can't be more than 21 looks at me and asked just so matter of factly..And how do you identify? I'm sure I had that confuzzled look I returned the question to her..although she was boi-ish looking I was curious..with Kobi's thread in mind..she stalled for a second and proudly stated she was andro. I said ok..she asked again how I ID. I said I'm a lesbian. She chuckled and said she figured that much out but what kind. I said female lesbian. She looked to be confuzzled..the older lesbians sitting at the table were giggling because they "got" it..the young un still confuzzled. I asked patiently..do you know what a lesbian is? The young un said well yes..it's a woman who likes women. I said yes thats part of the definition. Then one of the older lesbians jumped upon her soap box and went into a 15 minute lecture of what a lesbian truly is (in her opinion)..the poor young un seemed even more confused. I asked her if she had any questions..she said still looking Umm no not right now. I said well feel free to ask all you need to but know that each lesbian/gay/queer you ask that question to you are most likely to get a different answer. Shaking her head she mumbled something about having so much to learn..I smiled patted her hand and said yep and I'm more than double your age and am still learning each day. Just thought I'd share this little story. Kind of an insight to how one young un thinks.
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Last edited by msW8ing; 08-05-2011 at 06:27 AM. Reason: to many i's
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:44 AM   #55
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I've never been one to get involved in the politics of it all. I never used to "identify" myself until I started to get more involved online. As far as identifying, I never used to feel I had to. I find that when you become more involved in specifically identifying yourself and who you are, the more you seem to have to defend it - and I have never felt a need to explain myself. I am who I am, and that person changes every day in various ways ... yet, one aspect of the many things I am is a woman who loves a woman. And with that, you can call it whatever you want. I call it my bliss.

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Old 08-05-2011, 07:04 AM   #56
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Sometimes I wonder if all the words we use to define our identities are a necessity or just a marketing strategy gone wonkie.

It might be kind of cool to have a job as an "identity consultant" or an "identity strategist" or maybe an "identity reconfiguration specialist".

I was kidding but now that I think about, there may be some possibilities here.

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Old 08-05-2011, 07:10 AM   #57
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Default I am a lesbian!

I have lived through many twists and turns in my life to accept my sexual orientation. Women, in all shapes and sizes turn me on.

Femmes turn on the nuturing, connecting, sharing, laughing, common bonds, sisterhood; part of me. I can easily chat with lesbian femmes and feel totally comfortable with them.

Femme is my gender identity.

I am sexually attracted to female, lesbian butches. They just do it for me. When I see or meet a butch lesbian and all that ability I have with my femme lesbian sisters, goes right out the window. My heart begins to pound, my stomach goes into knots, my mind goes blank and I am as though I have been struck as mute. I am sure I have blown it many times by appearing as though I am an idiot. The sexual charge for me is so great, it overpowers my ability to think, talk or flirt.

How am I with bio men? Just like with my femme sisters as far as ease and comfort. Why? They hold zero sexual attraction for me.

I am a lesbian femme.
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"...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable."

UN Human Rights commissioner
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:55 AM   #58
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobi View Post


Sometimes I wonder if all the words we use to define our identities are a necessity or just a marketing strategy gone wonkie.

It might be kind of cool to have a job as an "identity consultant" or an "identity strategist" or maybe an "identity reconfiguration specialist".

I was kidding but now that I think about, there may be some possibilities here.

Put your office nextdoor to my bakery.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:53 AM   #59
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Default

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Put your office nextdoor to my bakery.

Can I put my office inside the bakery? And do you plan on making those twisted cruellers at your bakery? I miss those.
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:10 PM   #60
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Default

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Originally Posted by Kobi View Post

Can I put my office inside the bakery? And do you plan on making those twisted cruellers at your bakery? I miss those.
For you, I would bake anything your heart desires. And yes you can put your office inside the bakery
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