Islam & the Muslim faith- banishing myths

[AtLast]

Like so many things for me, I find that I learn by others and what they can show me with ideas and resources. I am deeply concerned about what is going on in the US (the world?) about Islam and what it means to be Muslim.

Of course I have problems with how women are treated within this realm. Yet, I see many working to deal with these issues. I know that even as a person that has a spiritual life, I do have difficulty with any kind of blind faith. I also know that I have much to learn about both Islam and the Muslim faith even if I fall on the liberal, more progrssive side of things politically.

This isn't an area I feel I know very much about. With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.

[Soft*Silver]

my daughter dated someone who was Muslim. She read up on the religion and asked me to do the same. Like most religions, there are things I liked and things I didnt. I too would love to know more about it. I try very hard not to hold the entire faith of one religion agains the zealots of it. Including and especially Christianity.

Thanks for starting this, ALH

[MsMerrick]

Where should I start ?
Islam, is, like Judaism and Christianity, based on the patriarchy of Abraham, accepts the Old Testament, and the New with the exception that Islam doesn't believe Jesus ( or anyone) is other than human. They accept Jesus as a prophet , and consider the word of God further explained by Muhammad, the next Prophet.
I know a lot more but perhaps that's the simplest part , that so many people don't seem to understand. Islam is as much a Monotheistic Faith, part of the same heritage as Judaism and Christianity.
Its a lineage, with in the same way that Christianity parts with Judaism, Islam parts with Christianity, and so it goes.
I know a lot more so ask a question
Having been brought up an Atheist, my interest in Religion, has been the same across the board.
So, perhaps I have spoken to a myth ? That Islam is some "wierd" Mystic thing, very different from Judaic-Christianity. It is not. It is part of teh same Mono Theistic lineage

[Laerkin]

What a delightful idea for a thread. The one thing our society could use is some good, old-fashioned education...listening instead of talking.

I don't know much other than the basics that I learned in my World Religion courses my sophomore year of college. As MsMerrick said, it's one of the Big Three based on the patriarchy of Abraham.

I've read small bits and pieces of the Koran...like the Bible, a fascinating book if read from a scholarly perspective. There are many passages of peace and beauty, and also passages of antiquated beliefs and laws. Hell, the Bible has more violence and condoned murder and slavery than pretty much any other religious text in history.

Like you, AtLastHome, the manner in which the Islamic countries have come to treat women is difficult to swallow. But, my small experiences with the faith tell me that these attitudes are based largely on a fairly recent conservative shift that is based on fear (much like we're seeing here in the U.S. with the Conservative right-wingers).

One other thing I know - back in ancient times while 60% of Europe was dying in the Dark Ages because of their total lack of education, technology, and hygiene, the Islamic areas were thriving. They had the first universities that allowed women, they invented a checking system for making payments far from home using advanced banking methods, and they had a clean and very modern civilization. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way some men felt threatened and, with their interpretation of God and religion, took power and the civilization started changing into what we have now - some modern, forward-thinking folks and some stalwarts (just like here).

I hope we have a few actively practicing Muslims in the community that can enlighten us.

There is an Islamic center about a mile from my home. It's nearly invisible and fairly hidden (only natural here in the Bible belt of the South), but my Religion professor encouraged us to check it out. I am very tempted to contact them just so I can educate myself a little more about their culture, ideology, regular practices, etc. Why not? I wouldn't hesitate to walk into a church to learn, right?

Looking forward to more dialog and less fear!

[Toughy]

like Merrick said..........

Judaism, Christianity, Islam............same God.....same basic mythology..........Islam accepts all the prophets (they see Jesus as a prophet....a human being only) of the previous 2 religions based on the single God of Abraham. Funny thing.......Judaism and Christianity don't accept the prophet Muhammad.

......and the ancient tribal wars continue today under the same God of Abraham........based on the idea of my God is really the right God of the 3 religions of the patriarchy.......

what year is it???

[Rook]

Hi,
I don't have a Degree in Islamic Studies *yet*, but I was raised muslim, Salaf..
I won't pretend to know it all or be the voice of authority, since my mother happily snuck behind my fathers back continuously so I could have a wealth of knowledge in other Religions/Covens so I could make a decision {if any} later in Life...
Any mistakes I make, I will correct if I can.

That being said,
Practicing Muslims everywhere are observing Ramadan at Press time of this Reply, it will Continue until September 8th.
Considering the Islamic Calendar is Lunar, the dates of different "Holidays" {there's not many} tend to rotate, I loved when it all landed in December..
It's easier to Fast/pray in cool weather {shorter days too}...
During the Last Week of Ramadan, devout Muslims will actually Camp out in their Respective Mosques..
There's food to break fast at sunset, I used to eat Figs , Dates and Milk dabbed with Honey to break Fasting.
All Muslims involved pray until the wee hours before Dawn, in hopes of Lailat ul-Kadr..The specific night The Prophet Mohammed {p.b.u.h} received the First verses of the Qu'ran, al-Fatiha,

Qu'ran 97 verses 1-5

In the Name of Allah, the Benevolent, the Merciful.

1 Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.
2 Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!
3 The Night of Power has more blessings than a thousand months.
4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
5 (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.

Women are, of course, encouraged to stay home, but it is not expressly forbidden for them to spend this time at the Mosque,
The reason for this is, if she's a Mother, her children will need tending {some hire babysitters} so, rather than have the burden of worrying over the children instead of praying, they're "excused", they do pray, and it's well known, you do not need a Mosque to pray..
The only time it's expressly forbidden for a woman to attend is if she's having her period.
Can't touch the Qu'ran either.
Can't have sex even after sunset until she's "done".
Mind you, there are Feminist Muslims, and even they can see the logic for the most part.
Some will ....and I've witnessed this...take their kids with them, to participate.
Even with a daycare, it was slightly distracting, and that is upsetting to some, because they must concentrate on Prayer and Services.
Some Mosques allow 'mingling', others don't...For the same reason Orthodox Jews don't allow women in specific parts of the synagogue {and the Western Wall}.
Personally, I will choose a segregated congregation.
The purpose of the segregation, again...Modesty , for Both..
Not simply because they're Misogynistic Patriarchal piggies....
In fact, if a gentleman accidentally wanders into the womens area {or a teenage boy is dared}, if the ladies are high strung about modesty {and they usually are}, it'll resemble a chicken coop with a Fox inside...
Best comparison I can come up with.

I do approve the construction of the Mosque near Ground Zero {I know, different thread}, it's a slap in the face to all Extremist/Fanatic/Delusional who want to preach Intolerance, Hatred towards the "Devil Amrikans" and claim the U.S. is anti-Islam...
I was actually stunned when I visited Memphis, Tenn. that there was a Madrassah {Islamic School}...

The Prophet Mohammed{p.b.u.h}, is Universally considered {within Islam anyways} as The Seal of the Prophets..
Many muslims will point out, Muslims do not worship the Prophet, but rather accord him with all the Due respect of a Prophet of G-d.
Muslims also believe that Islam is Not new not by a long shot, it was merely...rekindled.
The Bible, Torah/Talmud are also to be respected..
After all, same G-d, same Message {mostly}, different Language...

G-d Almighty = English, Hashem =Judaic, Allah = arabic
Some might dispute this, but if you find an unbiased Arabic Studies/Religious Studies Professor, unless they're atheist and have a chip on their shoulder, oftentimes they'll say the same.

What Laerkin said is true...
Whether you believe it or not, Feminism took place within Islam well before the suffragist movement, that a woman is Niqabi, because of supposed family pressures?
In some case, yes..Particularly in Countries where they were forced into it {Afghanistan}..
Elsewhere, quite a few actually Choose to wear Veils, I've witnessed fights because the parents were Hanafi, and the daughters ascribed to Hanbali..
Honestly, if a Nun/Monk can wear veils, and at some Convents live Cloistered, why not a Muslim?...
The Prophet eliminated infanticide of girls..
Hygienic speaking, yeah Muslims had the upper hand based on wash ritual...
Before every prayer, especially the primary 5 {yes there's more}, hands, face, mouth & feet must be washed..
After sex, birth and Menses, a shower is mandatory {preferably Alone, or it defeats the purpose} Like a Mikvah..
you don't step into a mosque if u haven't {Muslims anyways}.
A proper sign of respect to the Mosque visited, women wear a loose veil {if you're non muslim}, gentleman respect the womens area and stay out, please take off shoes.Trust me, the carpets are Cleam {unless u are visiting a Poor towns Mosque, and even then, they'll take care of the mosque before anything else.

Another "popular" issue would be Polygamy...
Yes, it's permitted, but with such astonishingly tight guidelines, nowadays, it's not worth the headache, unless you're flithy rich and can provide EQUALLY in Every way to all your wives..
If you can't, u better stay with 1, work from there.

As much as I might piss off a few Jewish friends {I don't mean to}
As a kid, I used to marvel at so many similarities orthodox Islam + orthodox Judaism have...
When I was told of the conflict between Ibrahim's wife and servant, I was mesmerized and pointed out
"So, they're technically brothers?....
Youth -shrug-

"In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2)

The Prophet said: "God has forbidden for you to be undutiful to your mothers." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

"And revere the wombs that bore you, for God is ever watchful over you." (Qu'ran 4:1)

A man once asked the Prophet to whom he should show the most kindness. The Prophet replied: "Your mother, next your mother, next your mother, and then your father." (Sunan of Abu-Dawood)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Rook

Hi,
I don't have a Degree in Islamic Studies *yet*, but I was raised muslim, Salaf..
I won't pretend to know it all or be the voice of authority, since my mother happily snuck behind my fathers back continuously so I could have a wealth of knowledge in other Religions/Covens so I could make a decision {if any} later in Life...
Any mistakes I make, I will correct if I can.

That being said,
Practicing Muslims everywhere are observing Ramadan at Press time of this Reply, it will Continue until September 8th.
Considering the Islamic Calendar is Lunar, the dates of different "Holidays" {there's not many} tend to rotate, I loved when it all landed in December..
It's easier to Fast/pray in cool weather {shorter days too}...
During the Last Week of Ramadan, devout Muslims will actually Camp out in their Respective Mosques..
There's food to break fast at sunset, I used to eat Figs , Dates and Milk dabbed with Honey to break Fasting.
All Muslims involved pray until the wee hours before Dawn, in hopes of Lailat ul-Kadr..The specific night The Prophet Mohammed {p.b.u.h} received the First verses of the Qu'ran, al-Fatiha,


Women are, of course, encouraged to stay home, but it is not expressly forbidden for them to spend this time at the Mosque,
The reason for this is, if she's a Mother, her children will need tending {some hire babysitters} so, rather than have the burden of worrying over the children instead of praying, they're "excused", they do pray, and it's well known, you do not need a Mosque to pray..
The only time it's expressly forbidden for a woman to attend is if she's having her period.
Can't touch the Qu'ran either.
Can't have sex even after sunset until she's "done".
Mind you, there are Feminist Muslims, and even they can see the logic for the most part.
Some will ....and I've witnessed this...take their kids with them, to participate.
Even with a daycare, it was slightly distracting, and that is upsetting to some, because they must concentrate on Prayer and Services.
Some Mosques allow 'mingling', others don't...For the same reason Orthodox Jews don't allow women in specific parts of the synagogue {and the Western Wall}.
Personally, I will choose a segregated congregation.
The purpose of the segregation, again...Modesty , for Both..
Not simply because they're Misogynistic Patriarchal piggies....
In fact, if a gentleman accidentally wanders into the womens area {or a teenage boy is dared}, if the ladies are high strung about modesty {and they usually are}, it'll resemble a chicken coop with a Fox inside...
Best comparison I can come up with.

I do approve the construction of the Mosque near Ground Zero {I know, different thread}, it's a slap in the face to all Extremist/Fanatic/Delusional who want to preach Intolerance, Hatred towards the "Devil Amrikans" and claim the U.S. is anti-Islam...
I was actually stunned when I visited Memphis, Tenn. that there was a Madrassah {Islamic School}...

The Prophet Mohammed{p.b.u.h}, is Universally considered {within Islam anyways} as The Seal of the Prophets..
Many muslims will point out, Muslims do not worship the Prophet, but rather accord him with all the Due respect of a Prophet of G-d.
Muslims also believe that Islam is Not new not by a long shot, it was merely...rekindled.
The Bible, Torah/Talmud are also to be respected..
After all, same G-d, same Message {mostly}, different Language...

G-d Almighty = English, Hashem =Judaic, Allah = arabic
Some might dispute this, but if you find an unbiased Arabic Studies/Religious Studies Professor, unless they're atheist and have a chip on their shoulder, oftentimes they'll say the same.

What Laerkin said is true...
Whether you believe it or not, Feminism took place within Islam well before the suffragist movement, that a woman is Niqabi, because of supposed family pressures?
In some case, yes..Particularly in Countries where they were forced into it {Afghanistan}..
Elsewhere, quite a few actually Choose to wear Veils, I've witnessed fights because the parents were Hanafi, and the daughters ascribed to Hanbali..
Honestly, if a Nun/Monk can wear veils, and at some Convents live Cloistered, why not a Muslim?...
The Prophet eliminated infanticide of girls..
Hygienic speaking, yeah Muslims had the upper hand based on wash ritual...
Before every prayer, especially the primary 5 {yes there's more}, hands, face, mouth & feet must be washed..
After sex, birth and Menses, a shower is mandatory {preferably Alone, or it defeats the purpose} Like a Mikvah..
you don't step into a mosque if u haven't {Muslims anyways}.
A proper sign of respect to the Mosque visited, women wear a loose veil {if you're non muslim}, gentleman respect the womens area and stay out, please take off shoes.Trust me, the carpets are Cleam {unless u are visiting a Poor towns Mosque, and even then, they'll take care of the mosque before anything else.

Another "popular" issue would be Polygamy...
Yes, it's permitted, but with such astonishingly tight guidelines, nowadays, it's not worth the headache, unless you're flithy rich and can provide EQUALLY in Every way to all your wives..
If you can't, u better stay with 1, work from there.

As much as I might piss off a few Jewish friends {I don't mean to}
As a kid, I used to marvel at so many similarities orthodox Islam + orthodox Judaism have...
When I was told of the conflict between Ibrahim's wife and servant, I was mesmerized and pointed out
"So, they're technically brothers?....
Youth -shrug-

Thank you so much for this. I was hoping that Muslim members would bring enlightenment from personal learning and perspectives. I especially like what you and Laerkin talk about concerning women- really helps to understand some of the cultural aspects and even the political. So much certainly fits with a lot of what I experienced with a catholic upbrining, actually. and I doubt that anyone can not see the very patriarchal and negative treatment of women in Chritianity and Judism historically. Makes me think of people in glass houses... . Seems to always be the case. obviously, as in these faiths, feminism has found a way to reach out within Muslim thought. There are so many different followings in major religions that are formed.

Do you have any idea if school public curriculums are gaining good information about the Muslim faith to teach students? This just seems to be a very important time for this to happen. In retirement, and with a grown child, I am not as informed about this. I do know from my son that his daughters have received very little information at school (one in middle school, the other in high school) about the Muslim faith even though comparative religion courses are offered.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by softness

my daughter dated someone who was Muslim. She read up on the religion and asked me to do the same. Like most religions, there are things I liked and things I didnt. I too would love to know more about it. I try very hard not to hold the entire faith of one religion agains the zealots of it. Including and especially Christianity.

Thanks for starting this, ALH

Yup, zealots of any kind usually put a whole lot of garbage out there! What Laerkin brings about the development of factions today with the subjegation of women is very interesting.

Toughy's info on the non acceptance of Muhammed by Christianity actually slipped my mind. This is an important distinction to think about when I see those zealots on TV bashing the Muslim faith!

[Miss Scarlett]

I am so sick and tired of the "anti- not affluent English speaking straight conservative white christian" people out there and their push to rid the US of anyone/thing not exactly like them. They venomously spew their vitriolic anger and bombastic rhetoric at every opportunity for the sole purpose of promoting their agenda by fear mongering leading to, among other things, a growing pattern of Islamophobia and Hispanophobia in the US.

These people are dangerous. They rely on the ignorance of their audience - a group that is largely made up of older adults who for some reason believe everything they are told in the media, read online or in an email chain letter.

History does repeat itself and if this is allowed to continue to gain momentum it will only be a matter of time before they start rounding up people and segregating them in designated areas or worse...

[Glenn]

This is what is being taught in conservative christian theological seminarys that is causing derision among Christians and Moslems:

Jesus- Died and rose from the dead.
Muhammad- Dies and stays dead.
Jesus-Never fought.
Muhammad- Fought many many times.
Jesus- When Jesus heard from God he went to the desert to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness (Mark 1:14-15}
Muhammed- Was uncertain and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)
Jesus- Claimed ti be God as well as man
Muhammed- Claimed to be a man.
Jesus- Instructions received from God the Father.
Muhammed- From an angel.
Jesus- Never killed anyone.
Muhammed- Killed many.
Jesus- Had the power to take life, but never did. He restored it.
Muhammed- Had the power to take it, but never restored it.
Jesus-Never married.
Muhammad- Had over 20 wives including a 9 year old girl.
Jesus- Spoke well of womwn.
Muhammad-Said women were one half as smart as men(Hadith3:826;2:541) That the majority in hell would be women (Had 1:28,301, 2:161;7:124) That women could be mortgaged .

[lipstixgal]

I have Muslims friends and they are alright, bright and friendly I see nothing wrong with being a Muslim..I'm Jewish and we are not liked by any stretch of the means so who am I to judge them!! But it is interesting to see the similarities between Muslim religion and the Jewish religion!!

[MsMerrick]

Just a note about having more than 1 wife.
At the time Muhammad lived, women were worth less than Camels. Seriously.
The whole notion, that if one had sex with a woman, you had to marry her.. first..which meant you had to provide for her, was very radical. Like it or not, that was actually a very good thing for women, at the time. They had no rights, and no worth, and were considered less than Camels. Insisting that men had to marry them ie provide for them, was very uplifting, at that time..

[Heart]

Efforts at understanding are important. De-mystifying and un-demonizing is crucial.

That said - I do NOT grant Islam, or any religion, a pass when it comes to patriarchal, oppressive beliefs about girls and women. I do not abide by any religion's conviction of their supremacy or "chosen-ness." I do NOT accept cultural relativism when it comes to abuse or violence-in-the-name-of.

Most of all, I hate the hypocrisy of traditional organized religions, including Islam.

Islam is no worse, and no better, than any global, organized religion, but it does currently gets "othered," in ways that are clearly the result of fear, ignorance, racism and bias.

Like other religions, there exists in Islam a continuum from secular to reform to moderate to conservative to fundamentalist. We are living in times when ALL kinds of fundamentalism is on the rise, coupled with an ever-shrinking globe, the proliferation of weaponry, and information and mis-information that travels at lightening speed. It is a time of extremes and extremism. That, not religious beliefs and not Islam, is the danger.

Heart

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

Efforts at understanding are important. De-mystifying and un-demonizing is crucial.

That said - I do NOT grant Islam, or any religion, a pass when it comes to patriarchal, oppressive beliefs about girls and women. I do not abide by any religion's conviction of their supremacy or "chosen-ness." I do NOT accept cultural relativism when it comes to abuse or violence-in-the-name-of.

Most of all, I hate the hypocrisy of traditional organized religions, including Islam.

Islam is no worse, and no better, than any global, organized religion, but it does currently gets "othered," in ways that are clearly the result of fear, ignorance, racism and bias.

Like other religions, there exists in Islam a continuum from secular to reform to moderate to conservative to fundamentalist. We are living in times when ALL kinds of fundamentalism is on the rise, coupled with an ever-shrinking globe, the proliferation of weaponry, and information and mis-information that travels at lightening speed. It is a time of extremes and extremism. That, not religious beliefs and not Islam, is the danger.

Heart

Yes, the one most significant reason I cannot be a part of organized religion is this very thing.... all (including what I grew up with) of the major religions of the world have this patriarchal oppression of women and girls within their ideological foundations.

My main interest here is about current US demonizing of Islam and the Muslim faith. As with most things, I do gai9n some hope when seeing what you describe as more secular to reform to or even moderate movements within major religions. Yet, I don't know that the patriarchal foundations of any of them will ever be shattered.

Throughout my life I have had a difficult time with being able to find a spiritual path that I could integrate into my life as a balancing influence and for me this is just important. The hypocrisy factor has always been the major stumbling block- I even felt this way as a young kid. I also did have mother that was not afraid to voice her inability to accept much of the Catholic doctrine that she was reared within even as a woman born in 1917 to a very devout Latin background. At age 7, I remember her marching up to a nun that had scared the shit out of me about mortal sin saying, children do not sin! She took me out of the school afterwards and just gave me her side of Catholicism as she utilized it for herself. Thank you, Momma! I know she met with a lot of wrath my grandparents over this. Although, her own mother became Pagan in later years. And what is interesting is that I believe she was a very faith-based woman in some ways. That base was one of questioning and only applying what she could follow as a human being.

It is possible to find a spiritual, or even what I believe to be faith outside of patriarchy, but a struggle. And one not everyone even wants to be part of.

No, I would not be any more inclined to become Muslim than Christian again, or Jewish, but, I do see the current hate about Islam to be very destructive.

Oh and cultural-relativism! My days in child protective services with Southeast Asian populations certainly put me at odds with it in many ways. And I have a very strong sense of ethnic culture personally. Then there was a bout with working with child sexual abuse and having perps cite various religious doctrines to deny their actions as being wrong!

[Soft*Silver]

Rook...I am so glad you joined in and told us your personal experience. I love your momma too! LOL.

I am learning so much, and am glad not to walk around with an empty spot where knowledge should be.

thanks to everyone for posting!

[AtLast]

I am wondering about a couple of things...

One, what is the breakdown (if known) in the US in terms of more reformist or I guess moderate Muslims?

Also, it was mentioned that there are "feminist" Muslim mosques with followers. I am interested in the really how feminist this is - are they based upon an integration of any particular feminist theoretical base? And is there movement toward women taking position as holy people in the same way men are? Or, is this more about women having a place to pray without any re-interpretation of Muslim doctrine?

The other thing that is on my mind is the continuation of media coverage of the proposed community center and prayer room in NYC. My understanding that this is not really a mosque, yet today on "Meet the Press," discussion of this still being called the "Ground Zero Mosque" was the same. This was after several political programs throughout last week with Muslim guests pointed out that is a community center.

Lastly, I am wondering about US Muslims thoughts about the fact that after such statements from the likes of Newt Ginrich comparing this to "placing a swastika next to the Holocaust museum" have not brought outrage. One analyst on Zmeet the Press tonday brought this up in terms of how a statement like that pointed at any other minority would cause quite a stir and not just by those within the minority group. I think she is right. POC as well as whites had a hell of a lot to say about Dr. Laura's little rant last week!

[Rook]

Good Morning..

Softness,
I'll pass the sentiment on to her

AtLast,
I'll try to tackle this from different angles..
I can't really say much in the "holy" area, because technically, there Really shouldn't be any "holy" people, that is why the Prophet is called "The Seal of Prophets", it means 'That's it, no more, this is the last of 'em"...
There are, of course, women that have important Status, alongside men in Islamic history.
To name a few, Maryam [mary, jesus mother], Khadījah bint Khuwaylid, Aisha bint Abu Bakr [Aisha is shrouded in controversy, and many anti-Islamic rhetoric thoroughly enjoy pointing grossly uneducated fingers at her story]
That Shi'ite sects place certain men on a pedestal of holiness, is irrelevant {not to mention Bid‘ah & borderline idolatry}
As for the Feminist Mosques, I'm not sure those exist.
Feminist Muslims, however, different story.
To my understanding, Feminism is about granting women Equal rights, and choice..
A muslim that is Feminist will demand her right to refuse marriage, to Inherit her parents estate, whether to have kids or not, able to Work as long as her children are taken care of {If she works, her income is hers to with as she pleases, the Bills are usually paid for by the Spouse, unless mutually agreed prior to working that she'll Help}, her right to Study on a Collegiate level.
And yes, her right to attend Khutbah on Fridays.

As for Newt's idiotic comment, there's always bound to be some asshat with an opnion in this country, that's why 1st ammendment exists.
However, what's good for the goose, is good for the Gander, soooo...I hope he can take the Heat.
Besides, the Swastika, if memory serves, was meant to be a religious Symbol to this day in Hinduism, Jainism & Buddhism, before the Nazi's had a collective brainfart and used it.

I'm out of time for more, hopefully this helps a little..

[MsMerrick]

I took some classes in Islamic Philosophy, and some classes in Arabic I had a couple teachers, but the primary one was a Coptic Christian, so bear in mind, that was his background.
Here's what I learned about the two main branches, within Islam...
An important part of the development of Islam, was that Mohammad, brought together, a country that was made up of nomadic tribes, that pretty much just scratched out food etc, and fought with one another. Islam or the Prophet, united them, into more common cause. Created more basic cohesive law ( like the you don't get to just rape a woman ..side note, I suspect the notion of rape didn't even exist, as woman didn't have rights of refusal ,...anyway , you have to provide care, as in economic care.. ) . I was taught, Mohammad may have married many woman, remember what Marriage was for here.. but his actual love and partner was a woman much older than himself.
He also had several men, that worked with him, to unite the country, and spread the faith. He directed them, that after his death, he wanted a specific person, to take his place, one of his Generals. The split within Islam, came after his death, with the people who insisted the person most fit, should be in charge ..and on the other hand, those that insisted it must be a Blood Relative ( I believe I recall he had no direct descendants, but I could be wrong ) . My Professor made a point of how different that was..the idea of the best person for the job, vs the blood relative ( very common everywhere and most disastrous also ! ) characterized the two different groups. The practical side, is the Sunni Muslims, and the more traditionally ( and I would argue more likely to religious zealotry ) are the Shi'ite.
The Imam, of the COmmunity Center erroneously dubbed the "Mosque at Ground Zero" is actually a Sufi, yet another very small, very spiritual, very progressive branch of Islam. He has a long history, of both friendship and standing up for Jewish Groups , and placing his own life on the lone, with the radical groups. That he is being vilified by people, and in particular some politicians, is just disgusting ...

[Glenn]

Folks may learn more about Sufi Moslems by googling this highly esteemed Sufi mystic: Hazrat Inayat Khan.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Rook

Good Morning..

Softness,
I'll pass the sentiment on to her

AtLast,
I'll try to tackle this from different angles..
I can't really say much in the "holy" area, because technically, there Really shouldn't be any "holy" people, that is why the Prophet is called "The Seal of Prophets", it means 'That's it, no more, this is the last of 'em"...
There are, of course, women that have important Status, alongside men in Islamic history.
To name a few, Maryam [mary, jesus mother], Khadījah bint Khuwaylid, Aisha bint Abu Bakr [Aisha is shrouded in controversy, and many anti-Islamic rhetoric thoroughly enjoy pointing grossly uneducated fingers at her story]
That Shi'ite sects place certain men on a pedestal of holiness, is irrelevant {not to mention Bid‘ah & borderline idolatry}
As for the Feminist Mosques, I'm not sure those exist.
Feminist Muslims, however, different story.
To my understanding, Feminism is about granting women Equal rights, and choice..
A muslim that is Feminist will demand her right to refuse marriage, to Inherit her parents estate, whether to have kids or not, able to Work as long as her children are taken care of {If she works, her income is hers to with as she pleases, the Bills are usually paid for by the Spouse, unless mutually agreed prior to working that she'll Help}, her right to Study on a Collegiate level.
And yes, her right to attend Khutbah on Fridays.

As for Newt's idiotic comment, there's always bound to be some asshat with an opnion in this country, that's why 1st ammendment exists.
However, what's good for the goose, is good for the Gander, soooo...I hope he can take the Heat.
Besides, the Swastika, if memory serves, was meant to be a religious Symbol to this day in Hinduism, Jainism & Buddhism, before the Nazi's had a collective brainfart and used it.

I'm out of time for more, hopefully this helps a little..

Yes! Helps! Yes about the swastika, too. Oh, how twisted things become..... which is what I see right now in the US concerning Islam and Muslims.


Thanks!