Changing last names

[Ginger]

Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

[imperfect_cupcake]

LOL no worries. I'm glad you can be fine with a bit of ribbing.

form my thoughts?? that's a compliment. I find they leave my head faster than they set. I need to express as I think. My flatmate hates me

Have a restful eve.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by desd

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

[Gemme]

At this point, I am unlikely to change my name. It's a name I choose to keep due to the connection between it, myself and a wonderful woman who is no longer on this Earth. Plus, it sounds good.

With my first marriage, it was an automatic move...not even a decision or choice, really. As previously mentioned, it's something that was 'expected' of me and I was young and naive and hadn't fully formed my backbone or world view. Now, some very important, lifelong documents have that name on it. Stuff I can't change. So, I truly regret giving in to that expectation.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

-- Me too --

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

I never thought I would get married/be good enough for someone to be 'worthy' or marriage or have children.. so, I never gave thought to my name. When I decided I would take Bard's, my family (particularly my dad) kind of went up in arms about it - they assumed, I guess, I would keep mine. However, we both know had it been to a cis-man, it wouldn't have been
questioned.

My friends/co-workers though automatically assumed that is just what I would do. I defer often to my wife, but as much as I try to 'give the reins' over, sometimes I have to make the decisions!

[Martina]

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

I really really wanted to get off this box, but could not bypass your post.

This is what I said (and I quote me).

"I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them."

In the scheme of things. There are a LOT of really viable and important happenings in the world, and this was a ME ME ME statement. I think in the scheme of things, it is trivial. That does not mean I am trivializing the choices people make.

Now I will go to my couch!

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Julie

I really really wanted to get off this box, but could not bypass your post.

This is what I said (and I quote me).

"I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them."

In the scheme of things. There are a LOT of really viable and important happenings in the world, and this was a ME ME ME statement. I think in the scheme of things, it is trivial. That does not mean I am trivializing the choices people make.

Now I will go to my couch!

No worries.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by Martina

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

Bard often introduces me as "This is my wife Shannon/Have you met my wife Shannon?" but it is not ownership as much as she is just so happy I said yes (or so I think) And, it helps alleviate issues that could arise when we are at places like the doctor's.. With our age difference, it is also a way to clarify I am her spouse. I think sometimes it is also like a shield - so who you are talking to doesn't get the chance to ask our relation to each other. I have used it with creepy people at work when she has stopped by "Oh, that's my wife."

I understand some people do not go the marriage route for similar reasons as well, and I have absolutely no opinion or judgement on what others deem appropriate for themselves, but for us it is more out of love (we were going to have a ceremony before it was deemed legal anyways). Now I see perks - combined auto insurance, joint access to our bank account, being able to include her income with my measley one for home purchases.. alas, that is a whole different

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Martina

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

<complete aside>

Wife just means "woman." that's the orgin/meaning for the word. It's dutch. I got called "wife" in holland even before getting married. Other people put ownership on it.

In Medieval times in the UK, marriage was never ownership unless you had standing and money. This was before the church got involved. It was two people saying "I marry you". That's it. The only time it was about "arrangement" or ownership was for the people who owned substantial property, and needed standing. To Divorce? you were basically fucked.

I think we can reclaim it back to what it was before the church - if we are talking white european marriage. Personally, I'm white euro, so that's really
the only one I can actually talk about. My marriage was way less "normal" than most people's "not married" live together in a house with kids and a car. So I did get a bit arsey about people (not you Martina, I meant some well meaning but idiot friends of mine) telling me I was "buying into the unconsidered lifestyle of sexist marraige" when they moved in with their partner, got a bank loan, got another car, had a kid, and were talking about how they were going to do their garden. Fucking mind blowing. I'm living in a genderqueer political house with 11 people, stuffing holes in the walls with socks, the window sash ripping off when I close the window, mold down the walls, yet ANOTHER FUCKING HOUSE MEETING about fucking BEANS, some yoga retreat traveler from germany I don't know the name of sleeping on the couch, I'm making a living from sex work cause the recession is killing us and I can't find a contract job, and my wife is trying to get to amsterdam to help with her dad dying of cancer. We have no cars, no kids, and no pets. So... REALLY?

This is why I'm not trying to pick on individuals. I'm only trying to talk about a trend.

If anyone wants a great docu on the history of marriage in the UK during medieval times, let me know and I'll send you the link to download. BBC program.
</complete aside>

[~ocean]

hmmm I can see why so many ppl have issues with taking someone's last name as yours as a unified couple ~ I took my wife's last name , she was proud to share ~ and yes she bought all kinds of things w. our last name on it ~ the feeling I felt was not being owned but more as an honor ~ may not be right for everyone soooooooo grls do the - < system and stay connected )) ~

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

So are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? Are you proud and happy that it's that way? Or just okay with it? Or not so happy, maybe resigned to it, because "that's the way it's always been," which seems to be your point?

To "ape" something has negative connotations, so that's why I'm asking.

I've been thinking about your questions all day, and i'll try to be clear in my answers.

I'm not certain that it is a good or bad thing to to enjoy the status quo...certainly if there is harm being done by the continuing of "tradition" then it should be looked at and modified where necessary. In *my* opinion no one is being harmed by changing their names unless somehow forced into doing so. I personally love having the same last name as my wife, i love the feeling of "us" that it gives me.

You know, several people have stated that they wouldn't be with someone that would change their name or ask for their partner/spouse to change theirs...i personally wouldn't be with someone that wouldn't

To each his/her own.

As far as the "aping" i referenced, please filter with whatever word you prefer for mimic or what have you. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about negative sounding words.

[princessbelle]

IMO....It's just personal preference like so many, many choices we make in life. I am well aware that there is the hetero-stereotypical thought that when a woman marries a man they change their name. I've done it. Which may appear to cross over a little (?) into the butch femme dynamic.

But. Being gay, the ballgame changes for a lot if not most of us. I also believe most of us try to steer away from the hetero-norm. However, at the same time, i'm a firm believer that you shouldn't steer away from everything that "appears" hetero-norm just for the appearance of doing so while cheating yourself out of your true choices for life.

For example, i've posted a lot about taking the "woman's" hetero-norm role in a relationship when partnered with a butch. I truly went through a long time of feeling guilty about that. Like i was being a bad gay person by taking this sometimes "assumed" role in life for my ID. I don't feel that way anymore. I'm not going to cheat myself out of what i desire just to keep someone from telling me "i shouldn't do that because it is too hetero-norm". What i do in my relationship is my choice. That in itself is the key diff between gay and straight relationships, most of the time anyway.

If i ever get married again and my partner asks me to take their name, i may but not because it is expected. I would do it because i WANT to do it. And while i'm thinking about it, it would be done with a lot more intention and deeper meaning since it is a choice. That is a huge difference, than changing it because it is expected in a hetero relationship. Would i ask someone to take mine? Maybe, again it would be my choice to.

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

Hope that made sense. Been a long day.

[macele]

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

--princessbelle



princessbelle, great post.

freedom is the key. whatever i do in life, all areas, i'd like for it to be natural. the freedom to be me. just let it happen. and keep my last name while doing it lol.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

[girl_dee]

What immediately comes to mind is that in the beginning the men made the rules and it was decided that she would drop her name and use his. This would become the family name.

Given that women could not vote, work, drive or have an opinion about much that this was part of the rules and fell into that lump of stuff we were expected to do.

Butch femme is usually a masculine/feminine balance which does mimic hetero couples, and for us, being given the same rights as married folk, like being able to legally change our name in gay marriage is a right we jumped on.

i think we have adopted so many traditions of straight folks because that is what we know, i don't imagine many of us were raised by lesbians, or gay men. i think as time goes on we will right our own set of rules based on our own ideals and whatever the hell we want to do. Also there is not a damn thing wrong with adopting any tradition if that is what you want to do. But there ARE options.

Not taking the male/masculine/butch name in marriage is idea many have never even thought of, it's just expected. At one time women probably thought they would never get the right to vote, or opt for divorce, etc.

Again, i think it's lovely that some cherish this tradition.

[Loren_Q]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

In North America, the social/cultural norm is for the woman to take the man's name in marriage.

Those mores/norms are embedded to some degree in all of us. I beleive each of us carries the social/cultural norms we were raised with whether or not we like them and whether or not we even know it.

The name taking norm is slowly changing, but the ratio by far is still the woman taking the man's name.

I don't think this is limited to B/F relationships. What I see is the dominant partner's name becomes the family name. When the dominant partner is femme, it can raise eyebrows, but not really.

This leads to the other cultural/societal norm that butch=dominant partner... And that's a whole other thread.

FTR I know many Femme-led relationships, but the question is broader than my personal circle of friends.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

As far as the "aping" i referenced, please filter with whatever word you prefer for mimic or what have you. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about negative sounding words.

That wouldn't be pretty, you and me in a pissing match

[Tony]

I’ve read through most of this thread. A lot to keep up with. There’s a lot going on here for a lot of people. Thought I’d add MY FEELINGS ONLY. It was mentioned by someone in an earlier post, and I’m paraphrasing here, that it was too bad or they wondered what a cis man thought about all this. I have lived as a straight man for more than 2/3rds of my life. A completely stealth life up until joining this sight about 2 years ago. Which is to also say I really had not had any connection with and very little knowledge of the LGBT community. I have learned a lot here, and have been grateful for that. But I did have 2 marriages and 2 divorces. The subject of either woman taking my last name or not was never discussed; it was just assumed. And to be truthful, I never thought about this subject until seeing this thread. Now it concerns me and affects me. Another thing I am grateful to this site for is the woman who holds my heart and consumes my soul. I asked her what her views and feelings about this name change issue were. Because I wanted to know and because for me, I always expected and assumed whoever I married again would take my name without there even being a discussion about it. She is a Beautiful Latina and explained about the women having a hyphenated name of her maiden name-husband’ name. Then she explained about some regions it would be “Beautiful Latina (Husband’s name) de (Father’s last name).
So I posed the question to her, that in the event we ever strolled down the aisle, what would her preference be? She said she would like the example shown. Now, normally, being the shallow bastard that I am, and in a previous life, I would not be open to this at all. You know, at least my name should be the last one. But, as I said, she does hold my heart. If that is what she wants, and it would make her happy, I would have absolutely no problem with it. I believe in the institution of marriage, the commitment of it, and for me her happiness is paramount to fulfilling those commitments. I do have to add, that she has opened my mind and my heart to many things and attitude adjustments. Another reason I love her.
Again, these are my views only. I do believe that everyone has a legitimate view and feeling about this. In the end, it is all about the choices that work for us, individually.