Trans Invisibility

[PapaC]

So...

This is a very personal, and raw issue I'm having lately and I believe I need to provide some background info before I present some questions to any who would like to participate in this thread.

I came out as queer/lesbian in '97, come out to myself as trans* (tg butch/masculine/etc) 6 months later, found 'community' both online and off within b/f circles in '98-'99, found trans-community both online and off in 2001, and finally, passed as male (assume 99-100% unless among medical people) since spring of 2004. When I moved to the west coast (BC) in 2006, I started living a 'stealth' existence in my home town. During the 2 years I was still in Nova Scotia, I was 'he/she'd' a lot. I still get that in Toronto when visiting friends and family as well, and for the most part, I just roll with it. When I'm visiting friends and family in the SF Bay Area, I'm 'home' in my community, thanks to connections from many people right here in this forum, connections that now span to over a decade. I'm truly blessed for that.

I have an offline trans-community that's semi local. It's... a struggle to say the least, and I don't think I want to get into some of those struggles right now so I want to keep it on a more personal realm.... I'm painfully shy. I think I'll always be painfully shy unless I'm in a b/f/ and-or trans bubble.

Coupled with these experiences, I'm 'away' from a lot of my queer friends and family. Lonely? Yes.

So here's what's been going for me and why I'm struggling today. Locally, there's a masculine female cashier at the local grocery store that I'm 'reading' as a butch woman. She's barely 20 yrs old. I've seen her working there for over 2 years now, and I can't tell you all just how sad I am sometimes that I can't give her that .... look... you know, that 'knowing' look, or a 'butch' nod (these days, I get the 'bro' nod from males -- it's just not the same thing).

I know I'm in an enviable position as a 'passing'-male. I feel the need to be crystal that passing as male as an FTM is .... an ocean apart compared to the experiences of butch women who do pass (so let's get that part outta the way)

I also know that I've chosen to go forward and have no regrets for my decision.

However..... I'd like to have a discussion about trans-invisibility, and see if there are any others who have similar experiences and thought processes around this issue. I confess that I'm not .... well versed in understanding of Femme Invisibility... am I experiencing something similar? I'd like to hear from Femmes as well (and no, not just femmes who are partnered with ftms or butches who pass, but any femmes who on their own, struggle with invisibility... maybe you can help me and other guys with your experiences)

Are there other guys like me that have these moments? Do you miss your 'obvious' queer/butch look? Does it bring up moments of loneliness for you? Do you talk to other trans-friends about it? (for the record, I have problems bringing up this topic with my local pals, as many of them have not lived in any sort of b/f bubble let alone queer id'd)

Because I have issues bringing up this discussion offline, I've decided I want to put it out there in a more... supportive setting. So here I am. I hope others would like to join me in this discussion. This won't be easy.

Respectfully,

[nowandthen]

Originally Posted by PapaC

So...

This is a very personal, and raw issue I'm having lately and I believe I need to provide some background info before I present some questions to any who would like to participate in this thread.

I came out as queer/lesbian in '97, come out to myself as trans* (tg butch/masculine/etc) 6 months later, found 'community' both online and off within b/f circles in '98-'99, found trans-community both online and off in 2001, and finally, passed as male (assume 99-100% unless among medical people) since spring of 2004. When I moved to the west coast (BC) in 2006, I started living a 'stealth' existence in my home town. During the 2 years I was still in Nova Scotia, I was 'he/she'd' a lot. I still get that in Toronto when visiting friends and family as well, and for the most part, I just roll with it. When I'm visiting friends and family in the SF Bay Area, I'm 'home' in my community, thanks to connections from many people right here in this forum, connections that now span to over a decade. I'm truly blessed for that.

I have an offline trans-community that's semi local. It's... a struggle to say the least, and I don't think I want to get into some of those struggles right now so I want to keep it on a more personal realm.... I'm painfully shy. I think I'll always be painfully shy unless I'm in a b/f/ and-or trans bubble.

Coupled with these experiences, I'm 'away' from a lot of my queer friends and family. Lonely? Yes.

So here's what's been going for me and why I'm struggling today. Locally, there's a masculine female cashier at the local grocery store that I'm 'reading' as a butch woman. She's barely 20 yrs old. I've seen her working there for over 2 years now, and I can't tell you all just how sad I am sometimes that I can't give her that .... look... you know, that 'knowing' look, or a 'butch' nod (these days, I get the 'bro' nod from males -- it's just not the same thing).

I know I'm in an enviable position as a 'passing'-male. I feel the need to be crystal that passing as male as an FTM is .... an ocean apart compared to the experiences of butch women who do pass (so let's get that part outta the way)

I also know that I've chosen to go forward and have no regrets for my decision.

However..... I'd like to have a discussion about trans-invisibility, and see if there are any others who have similar experiences and thought processes around this issue. I confess that I'm not .... well versed in understanding of Femme Invisibility... am I experiencing something similar? I'd like to hear from Femmes as well (and no, not just femmes who are partnered with ftms or butches who pass, but any femmes who on their own, struggle with invisibility... maybe you can help me and other guys with your experiences)

Are there other guys like me that have these moments? Do you miss your 'obvious' queer/butch look? Does it bring up moments of loneliness for you? Do you talk to other trans-friends about it? (for the record, I have problems bringing up this topic with my local pals, as many of them have not lived in any sort of b/f bubble let alone queer id'd)

Because I have issues bringing up this discussion offline, I've decided I want to put it out there in a more... supportive setting. So here I am. I hope others would like to join me in this discussion. This won't be easy.

Respectfully,

Yes, I remember the first time I watch a Femme look right past me, I was devastated. Now I ID as Butch and I have facial hair so I am not read as butch even in some b/f spaces and queer space. I have many people read my markers and make assumptions and that is to my what feels more invisible, the not asking me directly. But back to your point, I find that I prefer to be read as a gay man than a straight man since I am read as male. I think that stems from the fact that I am also white, not from a place of "white Guilt" but as a response to the privilege bestowed on me. Privilege i also benefit from as a white butch but gain more of. So I still feel invisible and often lonely. I have said to many friends who ask about my experience, that it is an individual journey So having lived out as a queer now for 31 years I find the question of invisibility to be tied to comfort of others that then cause me pain.
Meaning, if i agree to the markers of meanings that society and others assign, other are safe and happy, and I am not scene and must then come out. The only place or lets say two places i do not have to come out is in my whiteness and class status. being able to typed this on line already makes my class status visible. The pain of not being able to give that silent nod,wink,or smile is just that painful. That what I have for now, I think more and share more later.

[Jet]

I'm am TG, and invisible, I get a lot of missed pronouns

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Are there other guys like me that have these moments? Do you miss your 'obvious' queer/butch look? Does it bring up moments of loneliness for you? Do you talk to other trans-friends about it? (for the record, I have problems bringing up this topic with my local pals, as many of them have not lived in any sort of b/f bubble let alone queer id'd)

Hey PapaC...

I do run into the same situations you are describing.......interacting with a "butch" (my way of IDing them) and sometimes wanting to say, "Hey, I see you and get you." Under some circumstances, I'd probably even say that out loud......just haven't yet.

What feels most right for me is to be completely respectful of these individuals.......not be rude or dismissive in any manner. I know those feelings of isolation. I know the apprehension involved when approaching someone for help or being approached......the looks, the remarks that follow once they got the "full me". I always feel protective when I see masculine females, butches, etc... I don't want to be the next asshole that she (he?) runs into that day.

And I know that "protective" statement above stinks to high heaven of privilege. I get that. I'm just being honest about my feelings.

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Jet

[CENTER]I'm am TG, and invisible, I get a lot of missed pronouns

Hey Jet, I'm confused by this statement. Can you elaborate on this for me a little?

I don't want to make assumptions, but do you mean you get 'he'd' a lot and therefore feel invisible?

Thanks,

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

Yes, I remember the first time I watch a Femme look right past me, I was devastated. Now I ID as Butch and I have facial hair so I am not read as butch even in some b/f spaces and queer space. I have many people read my markers and make assumptions and that is to my what feels more invisible, the not asking me directly.

For clarity, are you talking specifically and only within a queer (b/f/gay/leather) setting that you feel invisible? Do you desire the world 'at large' if you will to 'see you' beyond 'male'? or are you comfortable/enjoy/are happy in your skin being generally read as male?

But back to your point, I find that I prefer to be read as a gay man than a straight man since I am read as male. I think that stems from the fact that I am also white, not from a place of "white Guilt" but as a response to the privilege bestowed on me. Privilege i also benefit from as a white butch but gain more of. So I still feel invisible and often lonely. I have said to many friends who ask about my experience, that it is an individual journey So having lived out as a queer now for 31 years I find the question of invisibility to be tied to comfort of others that then cause me pain.
Meaning, if i agree to the markers of meanings that society and others assign, other are safe and happy, and I am not scene and must then come out. The only place or lets say two places i do not have to come out is in my whiteness and class status. being able to typed this on line already makes my class status visible. The pain of not being able to give that silent nod,wink,or smile is just that painful. That what I have for now, I think more and share more later.

You've given me some food for thought regarding general privilege and how that has changed for you... thank you (you have before to me directly. but thank you for posting it here online).

[Jet]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Hey Jet, I'm confused by this statement. Can you elaborate on this for me a little?

I don't want to make assumptions, but do you mean you get 'he'd' a lot and therefore feel invisible?

Thanks,

Maybe I stated it wrong. I took invisible as not being "he'd at all and therefore
invisible. Sorry if I got this wrong. That's what I look like and I don't get "he'd unless its on the phone. I haven't started T yet. I don't require top surgery.
I live in the south and everything is "Miss" I cringe and, to me that makes me invisible

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Hey PapaC...

I do run into the same situations you are describing.......interacting with a "butch" (my way of IDing them) and sometimes wanting to say, "Hey, I see you and get you." Under some circumstances, I'd probably even say that out loud......just haven't yet.

That's exactly the phrasing I was thinking in my head "I see you". In fact, thanks to this thread, it prompted a memory of mine of the first woman who ever directly outted me to, uh me. She was a swimming instructor I worked with for a year back in 1990. She drove me home from work and during that car right she said "I know your secret. you're a lesbian."... although I was... certainly questioning at the time, and I read her as butch (I say masculine female to be more generic fyi, but yes, I'm with you on the whole iding them as 'butch') , I had no idea that I was uh... that obvious? But, it was an interesting experience, in that while I was nervous/anxious/scared and not quite sure on wordings and all this crap, fact is, until she said it, I was having a million and a half thought processes running in my head. Even so, I paused, and calmly replied: "How did you know?" (welcome to 'gaydar', Chris - jeez - lol)


What feels most right for me is to be completely respectful of these individuals.......not be rude or dismissive in any manner. I know those feelings of isolation. I know the apprehension involved when approaching someone for help or being approached......the looks, the remarks that follow once they got the "full me". I always feel protective when I see masculine females, butches, etc... I don't want to be the next asshole that she (he?) runs into that day.

And I know that "protective" statement above stinks to high heaven of privilege. I get that. I'm just being honest about my feelings.

No, I totally get it. I mean, in this specific case, and let's look at it: s/he's what 18, 19 yrs old, and I'm this big fat burly man with a goatee. Hello, creep factor much? (lol) .. I mean, really. ... do you remember the first time a woman crossed the street to avoid you because she's reading you as male, or the first time a woman's steps are faster on the pavement? I do. I never had that experience even while living/being read as masculine female/butch.

The other thing I want to mention is (and this is where I question if I'm being a hypocrite and/or just wanting my cake)... I wanna be stealth when I wanna be, but otherwise open to those few cases where I wish I can say "I see you" by the sheer way in how I used to look. I'm not talking about (necessarily) in a known queer circle (like parties/reunions/bars, etc). but just that instant 'oh he's queer too - cool' kinda thing.

Oh and another uncomfortable setting? My barber shop. My local barber happens to be a woman (straight), and she'd hired only female employees that I've seen over the years. I've always had barbers wanna have a chat with me and such, but in a small town, they're gossiping about this that, and the other thing, but 3-4 women in this shop, they get to discussing their relationships with men, sometimes watching a soap opera too (for good measure)... Well, having been married to a man a lifetime ago, you know.... I 'get them' too.. but from a female perspective. And there's times where I start to wonder.. oh shit, what if I giggle inappropriately *as a guy* when really, I'm kinda identifying with them as my former female self? and then I think 'oh shit, I shouldn't be laughing, they might read me as odd or something'. lol.

I'm not longing to 'return', and I wonder sometimes if traditionally a therapist might read this and say I'm 'ambivalent' or 'unsure' or 'confused' (I've been told that before and told the guy to go pound sand). I admittedly like shifting between communities/groups of people/world at large. I do want to be read more.... intimately if you will... except when I don't.

thanks for your input, Thinker.

[nowandthen]

"For clarity, are you talking specifically and only within a queer (b/f/gay/leather) setting that you feel invisible? Do you desire the world 'at large' if you will to 'see you' beyond 'male'? or are you comfortable/enjoy/are happy in your skin being generally read as male?" PapaC

What I really want is to wake up and not have it matter at all anywhere. Yes I want to be seen based on my merit not gender, or if you are going to see through the restrictive gender lens not to assign yours or others meanings to me. I am still hopeful, but in my daily life I have the choice/privilege to decide based on my safety when to "come out" as not male. Male and masculinity are not tied for me, nor is femininity tied to female.
What i guess I am trying to say and I have said this to you before is it all crap till we walk out the front door.
I wish we all would watch ourselves as we assign meaning to ourselves and others why we are, is it for our safety or ego. Am I assigning negative meaning to myself when I feel invisible? is that my false pride based in the messages I have received that I am less than because you(general you, not the individual you) or society do not approve my exterior presentation? If I am a spiritual being having a human experience than ego and false pride are involved in my journey to self acceptance. I do know that in "straight" circles I want to keep my marginalization by being seen as a Gay man or butch, I am not quite ready to give up that feeling "different" and having something to prove. I also want everyone to know that this body represents the reality of the continuum of the human experience, therefore I will be invisible in many areas of my life. I feel more invisible when I talk about how being white and how un-learning my white privilege plays out in both queer and non-queer communities. al
Alright, more coffee now

[Linus]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Are there other guys like me that have these moments? Do you miss your 'obvious' queer/butch look? Does it bring up moments of loneliness for you? Do you talk to other trans-friends about it? (for the record, I have problems bringing up this topic with my local pals, as many of them have not lived in any sort of b/f bubble let alone queer id'd)

I do have a sense of loneliness but I am lucky enough, at this point, to be in an area where an hour long subway ride brings me to a trans community that does understand. I know that if I was in the Toronto/Burlington area that I wouldn't be lucky enough to have this. I've talked about it with some of the guys from the trans group but it comes and goes (particularly since I haven't been there in a while).

In some ways, I do miss it because I think the assumption is that I'm like every other white guy out there when, in fact, I'm not. I do find that the "invisibleness" or ease to fade is something that is strongly associated (felt?) by the FTM community, a stark contrast to the MTFs who often stand out.

There are times I want to get a pink trans triangle to wear on a lapel when visiting LGBT areas just to identify myself.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by PapaC

No, I totally get it. I mean, in this specific case, and let's look at it: s/he's what 18, 19 yrs old, and I'm this big fat burly man with a goatee. Hello, creep factor much? (lol) .. I mean, really. ... do you remember the first time a woman crossed the street to avoid you because she's reading you as male, or the first time a woman's steps are faster on the pavement? I do. I never had that experience even while living/being read as masculine female/butch.

The other thing I want to mention is (and this is where I question if I'm being a hypocrite and/or just wanting my cake)... I wanna be stealth when I wanna be, but otherwise open to those few cases where I wish I can say "I see you" by the sheer way in how I used to look. I'm not talking about (necessarily) in a known queer circle (like parties/reunions/bars, etc). but just that instant 'oh he's queer too - cool' kinda thing.

Oh and another uncomfortable setting? My barber shop. My local barber happens to be a woman (straight), and she'd hired only female employees that I've seen over the years. I've always had barbers wanna have a chat with me and such, but in a small town, they're gossiping about this that, and the other thing, but 3-4 women in this shop, they get to discussing their relationships with men, sometimes watching a soap opera too (for good measure)... Well, having been married to a man a lifetime ago, you know.... I 'get them' too.. but from a female perspective. And there's times where I start to wonder.. oh shit, what if I giggle inappropriately *as a guy* when really, I'm kinda identifying with them as my former female self? and then I think 'oh shit, I shouldn't be laughing, they might read me as odd or something'. lol.

I'm not longing to 'return', and I wonder sometimes if traditionally a therapist might read this and say I'm 'ambivalent' or 'unsure' or 'confused' (I've been told that before and told the guy to go pound sand). I admittedly like shifting between communities/groups of people/world at large. I do want to be read more.... intimately if you will... except when I don't.

thanks for your input, Thinker.

I relate to that, C. And as for the part I bolded, those people can eff off as far as I'm concerned. I am *very* in touch with who I am, where I've been, etc... (as I believe you are); and I don't think for ONE SECOND that being very present to every experience I ever had makes me ambivalent, unsure, or confused.

To *me*, it makes me feel as if I'm being the most authentic "me" I can be.

Now, I'm not saying that transmen who don't have those same experiences and/or feelings that we are talking about are not being authentic or true to themselves. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it would be damn near impossible for me to not feel and remember every experience I've ever had and remain aware of how those things shaped me.

Although I can't personally relate to the example you shared from the barber shop (the experiences of being a female married to a male), I know *exactly* what you are talking about and have had my own experiences with people that are similar to that one. Same but different, if you will...

[little man]

i think that it's human nature to miss parts of our "old" life. i liken it to an apartment that had a killer layout, great view and reasonable rent...but the floors sloped, the roof leaked and the neighbors were noisy. the nuisances got to be enough of a downside to move...but i still miss the good parts.

i figure the invisibility to other queers is the price of admission. does it suck? you bet. does it feel like a loss? indeed. to have those things back, i would have to return to living half a life. difficult as it feels sometimes, i can't do that. or won't.

in short, i'd have to say that in order to gain ourselves, we have to give up some of the things we'd learned to take for granted.