For the T-Femmes and SOFFAs...

[SFFemmePrincess]

I went looking for a a thread/space for my T-Femme/SOFFA sisters, but didn't find one, so figured I should start one...

This is that space!

I want this space to be a safe space where we can go to discuss our experiences with being Transsensual Femme or SOFFA or whatever you choose to identify yourself as...
I also want this to be a space where people that have questions can come and seek information or support...
Most important, I want this to be a space full of love, compassion, respect, and solidarity...
I know that I have found it amazing to know that I am not alone in my experiences and hope that others can find the same solace...

And with that...Let the discussion begin!

[SFFemmePrincess]

I want to start building a resource list so here we go...

There is tons of stuff on YouTube, but I think this channel is one of the best.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TMatesFTM

Also, this is the beginning of the links, hopefully we will find more:

Disclaimer: I dont know how often this site is updated if ever.
http://www.ftminfo.net/soffa.html

http://www.transmentors.org/national-resources/54.html

http://www.forge-forward.org/

This one is specifically for children of trans parents:
http://www.colage.org/programs/trans/

Here are a few blogs from T-Femmes:
Disclaimer: I haven't read any of them, they were just listed on a resource page I found. Because of this, I cannot account for any of the content, but I glanced at the pages and they seemed worth the read.

Here is mine, I just started it so bear with me if you decide to take a gander at it: http://t-femmesf.livejournal.com/

http://supersoffa.blogspot.com/

http://transmarried.blogspot.com/

So I think thats a pretty good start, please feel free to add to the list...

[iamkeri1]

I was married for 25 years to an FTM, whom I adored to his death. I consider myself somewhat of a Tfemme (thanks for the shortened version, I LIKE it!) However I despise the SOFFA acronym. Partly, I guess because it has a certain amount of accuracy. When your darling is transitioning,... well let me change that to when MY darling was transitioning, I did get my feelings "sat on" a lot. Not so much by him, but particularly by his doctor who kept asking him if he had always dated "straight chicks" like me. (I found this to be inaccurate, demeaning, presumptive, and offensive.) I also had to worry that if the doc found out I wasn't a "straight chick" that maybe he would judge hubby not "man" enough to have the surgery he so desired. So no thanks, I am not a SOFFA... not even an arm chair, LOL. But y'all can be if that is your desire. Great idea for a thread by the way, RC. Thanks for starting it.
Smooches,
Keri

[apretty]

for those of you that identify as 't-femmes'--what was that process from xyz/femme/human to t-femme (assuming you weren't born t-femme)?

and do you/your partners ever feel that your 'trans'-based identity is fetish/objectification/dehumanizing?

[Bit]

apretty, is YOUR identity fetish/objectification/dehumanizing of your partner? Does YOUR identity depend one whit upon that of your partner?

A Transensual Femme IS a human being, a full human being, just as any other kind of Femme is a full human being. She does not de-humanize her partner.

The ideas that T-Femmes are somehow incomplete as humans and that they somehow de-humanize their partners are incredibly demeaning stereotypes. Why is it that anyone would ask this of a Transensual Femme when NO ONE asks it of a Transman? Why would anyone ask this of a Femme when NO ONE asks it of a Butch?

Speaking as a Transensual Femme, my identity is about MY soul, MY personality, and MY life. Anyone who would think that I would objectify or dehumanize another person just doesn't know me at all. I'm not some freakish "other"; I'm a Femme who is beyond grateful that her natural counterparts exist in this world. I'm a Femme who is able to partner with Stone Butches, Third Gender Butches, GenderQueer Butches, and Transmen, and I count myself amazingly lucky to have found them and to have found myself, both.

[SuperFemme]

I am a genderqueer femme. Whilst I understand the evolution of t-femme and SOFFA I cannot with a clear conscience for *ME* adhere to those ideologies.

I'm not a piece of furniture. My Femme gender is not evolved or co-transitioned by loving somebody who is transgender. I mean no snark. It is just amazing to me that others expect MY I.D. to change in regards to my love interests.

I found it very interesting to attend a Forge Forward Conference a few years ago and upon arriving in Wisconsin I noticed that there were very few Femmes in attendance. I had to check my preconceived notions at the door and be open to learning. I was surrounded by these beautiful transgender folk and in MY mind I was imposing what I thought should be on them. I sat in the lobby and was amazed (and turned on) by the many butches/trans guys who were coupled with each other. I felt like I was peeking into a secret world as an intruder. Because let's face it. Trans guys loving each other and Butch people loving each other/trans guys has been a taboo subject.

People in online communities try to start conversations but the threads sizzle out like a bad bottle rocket on July 4th because it is so damn taboo. Of course, my swiss cheese mind finds it hot. Attending classes and workshops I ended up feeling this overwhelming joy in my heart for the coupling of such variety of masculine id'd, female id'd butches and trans guys. Swoon.

Not once did it enter my mind that "Oh my God! The dating pool for Femmes just got more miniscule. We must not let this happen.". One of my heroes S. Bear Bergman was there. It was the weekend Ze fell in love with Secret Agent Lover Man. Bears journey was evolving and ze was becoming the hair product placing fag ze was always meant to be. I loved that. It broke my heart a little to see how Femmes reacted to this. After all, ze had written "Butch is a Noun" and had every Femme from every continent searching for a way to clone such a nice Jewish Boy.

Most striking was the "Couples Suport Group". I think eight people showed up. A lot of Femme participation sans Trans Lover, who had other things to do. It felt so odd to me that there weren't more people attending.

Lots of convo situated around the ID of the Femme now that she was with a transguy. Was she straight? Had she lost her queer community? What of her autonomy? I didn't see/hear any trans guys willing to be femmesexual. I just kept getting butted in the head with how these Femmes were changing to acommodate their trans counterparts. The T shots. The after care of top surgery. Living stealth, or not. It seemed to me like Femmes were doing a lot of work in the transitions.

Don't get me wrong, it is not a seamless process. But for goodness sakes where is the communication? The family consensus? Couples are a team, are they not? With enough hard work everyone's needs can be met.

So I have a lot of thoughts on this subject. I am NOT trans, therefore my Femme gender will never ever change to straight to pacify my partners needs. I am who I am regardless. Dating, Married or Single. I will do my best to be supportive and to talk out the hard stuff. But I will not take hys stuff on as my own. I am not just a significant other, I am a wife.

What works for me, may totally not work for others. I don't think there is a right or wrong scenario. We all have to navigate how we have to.

For me though, when a high dosage of T is affecting our children? We are going to discuss in Therapy. For ME being asked to be something I am not is not negotiable. Changing my label like a T dosage isn't going to happen. Let's reverse it. What if I requested that my transguy ID as FemmeSexual? Or QueerSexual? That is trying to fit them into my box and I'd raher have two boxes with a secret passage way in between.

I have this thing about falling in love with the total human being, not just the sex/gender or evolution thereof.

[Mister Bent]

I don't want to (and can't) speak for a pretty, but my read of her post was that "T-femme" suggests an identity based solely upon attraction/partnering. I respect where you're coming from, Bit, but doesn't that feel minimizing of femme to you?

Which is to ask, how does T-femme stand alone as an identity?

If there were no such thing as a transman, what would be the identity of a T-femme?

"apretty, is YOUR identity fetish/objectification/dehumanizing of your partner? Does YOUR identity depend one whit upon that of your partner?"

A femme's/woman's identity is exclusive of that of her partner.

Within these parameters, I don't think the same question could be asked of a transman/genderqueer/third gender butch because that is his identity. He's not identifying based on his lover's identity.

I'm not trying to take issue with your position, just wanted to point out how I read the question. For sure it's provocative.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What if I requested that my transguy ID as FemmeSexual?

Why has no one suggested this til now? (Unless they have and I've just missed it.)

Your brilliance deserves a reward.

[Bit]

*quote snipped for brevity and clarity*

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

.... "tfemme" suggests an identity based solely upon attraction/partnering.
Which is to ask, how does tfemme stand alone as an identity?
If there were no such thing as a transman, what would be the identity of a tfemme?

I dunno, darlin, what IS Julie's identity? How does it depend--or NOT depend--on yours? How did it come to be solely defined by her sexuality?

You can take the heat on that one, I don't wanna be ANYWHERE near when she reads that.

I wonder. Did you completely miss the litany of Butches I referenced? How can anyone read my entire post and think that I would disappear if there were no Transmen? I lived 41 years before I even knew that Transmen existed, and I never once understood the range of my sexuality until I actually spent time talking with Transmen--------JUST AS I never understood the range of my sexuality until I spent time talking with Butches. I existed before I knew about them, I would exist if they were all gone.... only yanno, they WOULDN'T be gone. They would still be Stone Butches, Third Gender Butches, GenderQueer Butches, Hard Butches, Transgendered Butches, Two Spirit Butches--need I go on?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive and I also understand that it's late and I am certainly feeling snippy, but goddammit it's been seven and a half years now that I have been hearing how being Transensual trumps every other part of my identity, that my sexuality is somehow enormous enough that it completely negates my very being who lives and moves and breathes in this world as a Femme who is the natural partner of Butches. My ability to partner with Transmen is a gift that I cherish. It does not limit me, it frees me. It does not dehumanize me, it allows me to be the full person I was always meant to be. I am lucky enough to have grown into an identity that includes an expanded sexuality.

[julieisafemme]

Thank you so much for this!!! I went to Gender Odyssey this year and that sounds similar to the conference you went to. I was amazed at the diversity in the trans community and that there was a such a diversity in the partners.

I have had such a difficult time trying to figure out this whole ID thing because I came out and then my partner. To a lot of people this suddenly labeled me as a transsensual femme. I don't know if this fits me. But I was worried about saying that because then it might offend somebody. My partner does not care either way. He is not offended or believe that my ID is in any way dependent on his.

I completely agree with the taboo subject of transmen with other transmen or butches. At the conference many partners were worried about their partner's sexual orientation changing during transition. It was a source of fear and pain for many. It was also a source of pain that many partners and couples felt shunned from their lesbian community because if their partner's transition. I have felt that way sometimes.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am a genderqueer femme. Whilst I understand the evolution of t-femme and SOFFA I cannot with a clear conscience for *ME* adhere to those ideologies.

I'm not a piece of furniture. My Femme gender is not evolved or co-transitioned by loving somebody who is transgender. I mean no snark. It is just amazing to me that others expect MY I.D. to change in regards to my love interests.

I found it very interesting to attend a Forge Forward Conference a few years ago and upon arriving in Wisconsin I noticed that there were very few Femmes in attendance. I had to check my preconceived notions at the door and be open to learning. I was surrounded by these beautiful transgender folk and in MY mind I was imposing what I thought should be on them. I sat in the lobby and was amazed (and turned on) by the many butches/trans guys who were coupled with each other. I felt like I was peeking into a secret world as an intruder. Because let's face it. Trans guys loving each other and Butch people loving each other/trans guys has been a taboo subject.

People in online communities try to start conversations but the threads sizzle out like a bad bottle rocket on July 4th because it is so damn taboo. Of course, my swiss cheese mind finds it hot. Attending classes and workshops I ended up feeling this overwhelming joy in my heart for the coupling of such variety of masculine id'd, female id'd butches and trans guys. Swoon.

Not once did it enter my mind that "Oh my God! The dating pool for Femmes just got more miniscule. We must not let this happen.". One of my heroes S. Bear Bergman was there. It was the weekend Ze fell in love with Secret Agent Lover Man. Bears journey was evolving and ze was becoming the hair product placing fag ze was always meant to be. I loved that. It broke my heart a little to see how Femmes reacted to this. After all, ze had written "Butch is a Noun" and had every Femme from every continent searching for a way to clone such a nice Jewish Boy.

Most striking was the "Couples Suport Group". I think eight people showed up. A lot of Femme participation sans Trans Lover, who had other things to do. It felt so odd to me that there weren't more people attending.

Lots of convo situated around the ID of the Femme now that she was with a transguy. Was she straight? Had she lost her queer community? What of her autonomy? I didn't see/hear any trans guys willing to be femmesexual. I just kept getting butted in the head with how these Femmes were changing to acommodate their trans counterparts. The T shots. The after care of top surgery. Living stealth, or not. It seemed to me like Femmes were doing a lot of work in the transitions.

Don't get me wrong, it is not a seamless process. But for goodness sakes where is the communication? The family consensus? Couples are a team, are they not? With enough hard work everyone's needs can be met.

So I have a lot of thoughts on this subject. I am NOT trans, therefore my Femme gender will never ever change to straight to pacify my partners needs. I am who I am regardless. Dating, Married or Single. I will do my best to be supportive and to talk out the hard stuff. But I will not take hys stuff on as my own. I am not just a significant other, I am a wife.

What works for me, may totally not work for others. I don't think there is a right or wrong scenario. We all have to navigate how we have to.

For me though, when a high dosage of T is affecting our children? We are going to discuss in Therapy. For ME being asked to be something I am not is not negotiable. Changing my label like a T dosage isn't going to happen. Let's reverse it. What if I requested that my transguy ID as FemmeSexual? Or QueerSexual? That is trying to fit them into my box and I'd raher have two boxes with a secret passage way in between.

I have this thing about falling in love with the total human being, not just the sex/gender or evolution thereof.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

for those of you that identify as 't-femmes'--what was that process from xyz/femme/human to t-femme (assuming you weren't born t-femme)?

and do you/your partners ever feel that your 'trans'-based identity is fetish/objectification/dehumanizing?

I don't think this is a bad question. Bit I am not sure why this offends you. At the conference I went to there was a big discussion on "tranny chasing" and fetishizing of trans men and women. I don't think someone who identifies as a transsensual femme is objectifying transmen but I think how I feel about it not as important as how a transman or woman would feel. I was really upset that there was not a place for me to explore these questions. Because I have always been attracted to people who straddle gender. To me that can be butch or trans.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by apretty

for those of you that identify as 't-femmes'--what was that process from xyz/femme/human to t-femme (assuming you weren't born t-femme)?

and do you/your partners ever feel that your 'trans'-based identity is fetish/objectification/dehumanizing?

I don't like straight girls, as far as dating, sex and relationships go. I dig femmes. Am I fetishizing/objectifying/dehumanizing femmes by only preferring them in this regard?

Just a question.

Mr. FemmeSensual

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

*snip*
I have this thing about falling in love with the total human being, not just the sex/gender or evolution thereof.

I had to make sure this doesn't get lost.

This is exactly how I feel/believe.

Thanks for the reminder

[apretty]

i am confused because i believe that ANY person 'can love a trans-person' and i am dismayed that some think that it takes a special 'breed of femme' when in reality, most people i know fall in love with both the *inside and outside* of the person.

my hope is that we'd please, stop 'othering' the trans-people by making them and/or the ability to love these people such a "rare and unique" (unicorn) thing to behold.

flip-side --i don't get the whole identifying yourself dependent on who you're doing-thing. i've never changed my identity to date/love/plan a future with anyone, and i value that that's as a huge source of strength--that inflexibility while changing/moving/evolving all the time.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by apretty

i am confused because i believe that ANY person 'can love a trans-person' and i am dismayed that some think that it takes a special 'breed of femme' when in reality, most people i know fall in love with both the *inside and outside* of the person.

my hope is that we'd please, stop 'othering' the trans-people by making them and/or the ability to love these people such a "rare and unique" (unicorn) thing to behold.

flip-side --i don't get the whole identifying yourself dependent on who you're doing-thing. i've never changed my identity to date/love/plan a future with anyone, and i value that that's as a huge source of strength--that inflexibility while changing/moving/evolving all the time.

Hands down, one of THE best trans ally posts EVER. Everrr. Love you for this, C.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

To a lot of people this suddenly labeled me as a transsensual femme. I don't know if this fits me. But I was worried about saying that because then it might offend somebody.

Nobody has the right to label you, Julie. If "Transensual" doesn't fit you, then you aren't ever obligated to use it. You are the only one who has the right to choose a label--or to not choose a label. What business do other people have being offended by your identity?

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I don't think this is a bad question. Bit I am not sure why this offends you. At the conference I went to there was a big discussion on "tranny chasing" and fetishizing of trans men and women.

One can assume that anyone who is attracted to a Transman is merely fetishizing him. Let's see how that works out.

Me: Wow, you really turn me on!
Him: If I turn you on, then you are just fetishizing me, which makes you incomplete as a human being.

Can you see the problem here? Can you see that the Transman in this reaction is focusing solely on sex, as if I were nothing more than a set of genitals? Can you see his self-hatred in the assumption that he could not POSSIBLY attract anyone who was MORE than a set of genitals?

I don't think Transmen are that shallow, nor do I believe they are full of self-hatred. I believe that if I say to a Transman, "Wow, you really turn me on!" he's going to understand that my intellect, my emotions, and my sexuality are all engaged, just as they would be with anyone else who turned me on--and I would hope that, whether he returned the sentiments or not, he would at least understand that I was paying him a high compliment.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I don't like straight girls, as far as dating, sex and relationships go. I dig femmes. Am I fetishizing/objectifying/dehumanizing femmes by only preferring them in this regard?

Just a question.

Mr. FemmeSensual

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Drew}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for getting it and also for your willingness to say so!

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

[I][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=Teal]

I dunno, darlin, what IS Julie's identity? How does it depend--or NOT depend--on yours? How did it come to be solely defined by her sexuality?

Except on a purely imaginary, play-pretend, lets-get-theoretical level, Bent can't answer these questions. I can sort of see why you asked him, but since I believe the effort was misplayed (not that I am hurt - I'm not) I'm going to answer.

My identity is in no way contingent upon the individual that I partner with, or any person with whom I might choose to enter sexual relations. My identity has never been and will never be "solely" defined by my sexuality.

I have revealed before that I see my sexual orientation as fitting a pansexual screen, which for me, and because of the way that it is fashioned, is also a queer one. Because of how I love, which is different than purely sexual desire (obviously), I am best to venture into relationship with a certain subset of masculine females and/or trans males.

Absolutely none of that defines me. It is only a marker, an indicator, as to my desires.

Should I say that my identity is heteronormative? Is that really what we're avoiding saying? Because it could be understood as an identity marker. And the only place I see a lack of parity here is where transmen, genderqueers, third gendered butches and stone butches aren't saying the same thing in relationship to their own identities. I mean, as long as they aren't saying: I am Femmesensual (and let's face it; they're not - except Hey AZ!), and so few are saying "I id as straight," then it really isn't about identity for them in terms of us.

And if they are identifying as straight, we aren't meeting them in like numbers. (Pure bullshit conjecture here.)

And is this heteronormative behavior? And is that really so bad? This has always been about the power of personal choice, hasn't it? Was there really ever such a thing?

I can't decide.

Someone will tell me my post is a derail.

[SuperFemme]

I think this calls for a Rock Opera. I am convinced that the THAT in "I won't do that" means change my identity because of who I love.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GNhdQRbXhc"]YouTube- Meat Loaf - I would do anything for love[/ame]

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Bit

*quote snipped for levity and clarity*

You can take the heat on that one, I don't wanna be ANYWHERE near when she reads that.

Hell, Bit, she laughed!

Originally Posted by Bit

<snip> Did you completely miss the litany of Butches I referenced? How can anyone read my entire post and think that I would disappear if there were no Transmen?

I just want to assure you that, no I didn't miss that, I was simply using "transman" as shorthand, you'll see later in my post I listed a greater compliment of gender variable masculine types.

Originally Posted by Bit

I dunno, darlin, what IS Julie's identity? How does it depend--or NOT depend--on yours? How did it come to be solely defined by her sexuality?

Had e not answered already, my response to you would have been that my partner is a lesbian (whereas I am not) and that the question is hers, not mine, to answer (as she did).

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

Nobody has the right to label you, Julie. If "Transensual" doesn't fit you, then you aren't ever obligated to use it. You are the only one who has the right to choose a label--or to not choose a label. What business do other people have being offended by your identity?



One can assume that anyone who is attracted to a Transman is merely fetishizing him. Let's see how that works out.

Me: Wow, you really turn me on!
Him: If I turn you on, then you are just fetishizing me, which makes you incomplete as a human being.

Can you see the problem here? Can you see that the Transman in this reaction is focusing solely on sex, as if I were nothing more than a set of genitals? Can you see his self-hatred in the assumption that he could not POSSIBLY attract anyone who was MORE than a set of genitals?

I don't think Transmen are that shallow, nor do I believe they are full of self-hatred. I believe that if I say to a Transman, "Wow, you really turn me on!" he's going to understand that my intellect, my emotions, and my sexuality are all engaged, just as they would be with anyone else who turned me on--and I would hope that, whether he returned the sentiments or not, he would at least understand that I was paying him a high compliment.



{{{{{{{{{{{{{Drew}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for getting it and also for your willingness to say so!

I understand what you are saying. The thing is there were a lot of people in this one workshop who *did* feel fetishized. They were pretty upset about it and it was a painful thing for them. It was hard for me to hear and I did not feel there was a place for me as a partner to express what it is about my partner that I love that is part of his trans experience. Because that is part of who he is and it part of why I love him.

In my experience transmen are so often reduced to genitals by many people who so desperately want to know what is in their pants and how do they use it. Simply telling a straight person that I am partnered with a transman immediately means that I am telling them all about my sex life. I was shocked by this reaction. It never occurred to me that this would be the case. To me that feels fetishizing and exoticizing (if that is a word) of transmen. It seems like it takes people, the straight people in my life, a long time to get past what bits someone has.