For the T-Femmes and SOFFAs...

[SuperFemme]

I don't think it is fetishizing to ANYone to say "Wow, you turn me on". Flip that around to labeling ones self "t-femme or trans-sensual" and it can become problematic. That implies that the self labeler bases their identity on the dangling carrot of partnering with a transgender person.

Trans guys are NOT shallow, in fact I'd venture to say they are far from shallow. One cannot walk a path for years enduring the pain of the outsides not matching the insides and not have depth. Conversely, I think humans are sensitive to others focusing on a specific trait about them rather than the sum of the parts.

Fascinatingly, I don't see Trans people calling themselves Femme-sensual or Woman-Sensual. So yes, it feels to *me* that it is a from of fetish. Which makes me sad. That is a human being worthy of so much more recognition for the complexities of who they are than to have the bulls-eye be on *Trans*.

This commentary is so NOT about Trans or Butch people but rather about the Femmes that choose to put themselves out there carte blanche as an accessory to Trans. THAT in my opinion devalues transgender people and the infinite gender fluidity that exists (whether anyone wants to admit it or not)

[BullDog]

I am wondering about the fetishizing aspect. Are people saying that some trans guys feel fetishized by some femmes identifying as transsensual?

There are some femmes who identify as stone femmes. There are different types of stone femmes, but some of them who identify that way is in part because they are attracted to/partner with stone butches. I am a stone butch. I do not feel fetishized by a femme identifying as a stone femme. I haven't ever heard of any other stone butches saying they are either, although there could be some and I just am not aware of it. It is her identity and if she chooses to identify that way as far as I am concerned that is her choice just as it is my choice to identify as stone butch.

I do understand what some people are saying about how there are some femmes whose identity seems to be based at least in part by who they partner with, whereas butches and trans men don't seem to do that.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I don't think it is fetishizing to ANYone to say "Wow, you turn me on". Flip that around to labeling ones self "t-femme or trans-sensual" and it can become problematic. That implies that the self labeler bases their identity on the dangling carrot of partnering with a transgender person.

Trans guys are NOT shallow, in fact I'd venture to say they are far from shallow. One cannot walk a path for years enduring the pain of the outsides not matching the insides and not have depth. Conversely, I think humans are sensitive to others focusing on a specific trait about them rather than the sum of the parts.

Fascinatingly, I don't see Trans people calling themselves Femme-sensual or Woman-Sensual. So yes, it feels to *me* that it is a from of fetish. Which makes me sad. That is a human being worthy of so much more recognition for the complexities of who they are than to have the bulls-eye be on *Trans*.

This commentary is so NOT about Trans or Butch people but rather about the Femmes that choose to put themselves out there carte blanche as an accessory to Trans. THAT in my opinion devalues transgender people and the infinite gender fluidity that exists (whether anyone wants to admit it or not)

Super,

You know I adore you and think you are so smart and sweet and kind, and very educated. I understand that you are saying that the whole person should be appreciated and not just that they are trans. I agree with that. Same goes for femmes and butches and.... anyone.

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Super,

You know I adore you and think you are so smart and sweet and kind, and very educated. I understand that you are saying that the whole person should be appreciated and not just that they are trans. I agree with that. Same goes for femmes and butches and.... anyone.

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

I totally get what you are saying. After all, I am married to a transguy. Did I fall in love with hym *in spite* of hys being transgender? Hell no! I fell in love with every fiber of hys being.

I get the feeling of inclusiveness you feel when a woman says she is a transsensual femme. Totally.

For *Me* it is not an either or situation. To love somebody "in spite of" is not to love that person as a whole. To love somebody as a whole is a chance at a successful relationship.

Yet, it feels false to me to love ones SELF as a whole while negating ones identity to whom one is attracted to. Any woman falling in love with YOU is just that. A woman falling in love with YOU. A woman falling in love with you not in spite of you being trans but rather *because* of you being trans feels like shaky ground (for both you and the femme).

But that is just one girl with a bumped head's take on the matter. I am not an expert, I am only speaking my own truth and forwarding the philosophy that we are all lovable for our entire being, not just one aspect. My truth might be the next persons poison. I accept that.

I just want to add that you are incredibly lovable, for a plethora of reasons, not just your transition.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am wondering about the fetishizing aspect. Are people saying that some trans guys feel fetishized by some femmes identifying as transsensual?

There are some femmes who identify as stone femmes. There are different types of stone femmes, but some of them who identify that way is in part because they are attracted to/partner with stone butches. I am a stone butch. I do not feel fetishized by a femme identifying as a stone femme. I haven't ever heard of any other stone butches saying they are either, although there could be some and I just am not aware of it. It is her identity and if she chooses to identify that way as far as I am concerned that is her choice just as it is my choice to identify as stone butch.

I do understand what some people are saying about how there are some femmes whose identity seems to be based at least in part by who they partner with, whereas butches and trans men don't seem to do that.

I wanted to try and maybe answer this (from my perspective). I want to state that just because I feel 'othered' by *my* interpretation of the transsensual femme identity does not mean I do not support those who identify as such, as well as those trans men who do not feel the same way as me. And I respect their right to identify in any way they see fit. Period. (Lest I find my ass being invited from the femme zone to the red zone.)

I think gender and sexuality continue to be confused. For the sake of clarity, I'm only going to speak about the issue from my perspective as a transsexual man who identifies as such. I hear some people who identify as trans, trans guy, transgender, TG, FTM - all who claim to be male/men - transitioned or not - but who do not claim the word transsexual, ever. This is problematic for many reasons, most importantly medical treatment. Some seek to depathologize a medically derived word but that hurts us in the long run (that's a whole other thread) and others feel that the word 'sex' in transsexual furthers the myth that we transition for sexual reasons. It's important here because I want to be clear that I am (and can only speak for) a man of transsexual experience. I do not identify as transgender (which encompasses a WHOLE bunch of identities - including cissexuals). I don't use the ID 'queer' but my politics are very much queer and I will forever remain a staunch ally to this community.

First, I am wondering, because I need to understand, if the transsensual femmes here include in their attraction trans men who have not yet, are uncertain, are unable, or do not wish to seek physical transition. Or are we talking exclusively about men who have completed or are well into their transitions or those who fully intend to? Again, the importance of the usage of the word transsexual - simply, someone born into the wrong body. I do not use that word (as some do) to indicate a stage along a path of transition - meaning "I was a transsexual, then I had surgery/hormones and now I'm a man." Some use the word transsexual to describe only someone who has completed physical transition. This is not the definition of transsexual.

I think it's important to know if transsensual femmes make these distinctions or not in order to pinpoint a fetishism, if one exists. It's also an important distinction to be made if we're to know if transsensual femme stands alone on its own.

I myself am not offended by a woman who might be attracted to my experience. It is, without a doubt, very unique. But being trans is only part of who I am just as being a femme or a girlfriend or a mother or artist or mechanic is only part of who she is. And so it's concerning (to me) if someone is focused on only this part of who I am as much for her as it is for me. I have to wonder, is there only a part of her that is attracted to this part of me? Because I need a complete person to stand up against my complete person. It would also worry me that she would be at high risk of having my experience, my journey, my transition, run all over who she is and I don't want that. (again, this is my concern, not a suggestion that that is what would happen to anyone *here* who identifies as a transsensual femme.)

When it can become, or I should say *seem* problematic, is when women/femmes choose ONLY to partner with trans men, because I'll tell ya, we're not all alike. And I'm sure there's the belief that the likelihood of finding a guy who isn't an asshole is higher amongst trans men. But I know some trans men you would swear never existed one day in a female body. And then there are some who depart from their past and take on less than admirable qualities as their newfound visibility brings more pressure to perform masculinity the way society tells them it's done. (Slight derail: for anyone who judges these men harshly and/or calls them 'traitors', please try to find the compassion to understand how brutal and dangerous this pressure can sometimes be - because until you've unwittingly tipped off the wrong cissexual man to your transsexualism, say, in the men's room, you have no room to speak).

In my personal experience, I'd say we come in as many different varieties as cissexual men (I have found this to be really eye-opening myself) and to think otherwise is stereotyping (like any other stereotype). So when this topic comes up, I always have to ask myself, 'Would she choose a misogynist, sexist prick trans man over a feminist-ally, sensitive cissexual man?" (or any less extreme example) If the answer is yes, or that she would go out and seek another trans man specifically because he's trans and would not consider a cissexual man who comes along with all the same qualities she seeks, I know she has put me in some special category (one in which I likely don't even place myself) and perhaps does not see me as truly male and we are both going to be unhappy (most especially if she's made this distinction because of some aversion she has to cissexual men).

It's invalidating to us as men (just like the "biological male" terminology brought up on another thread in defense of some trans men who take offense to it). I've always been a man. If I'm not a 'biological male', what then? I'm not trying to *change genders*. The issue was with my physical vs. mental development. I can't change my brain. So I have to change my body. And so I have sought therapy to confirm what I know and am seeking treatment to remedy the incongruency.

To separate me from cissexual men is to 'other' me. To say I'm different. But then, the crux of the matter is, I am different. And it's impossible for both me and the woman I choose to partner with not to acknowledge this and talk about it. And I want to know that she appreciates my past - the pain and the struggle as much as the 'good things' like my female upbringing/conditioning and realize that, the painful irony, for both of us, is that those things that make me desirable to her have also been a source of a tremendous amount of torment. She has to love and understand all of that. And I imagine that's extremely difficult for a woman to navigate and accept her own desires around that truth. I don't know. I applaud any woman who can stand beside us on our journeys, before, after and throughout our transitions.

The question BullDog raised is not the same (to me) as with women who prefer to date/partner with stone butches who are cissexual. The identity of stone femme, depending on who you ask, carries a lot of different meanings. It can mean they understand and respect the sexual boundaries of a stone butch, that they prefer the sexual boundaries of a stone butch or simply that they themselves (whether femme or butch) have 'stone' sexual boundaries of their own and need to have those respected. I imagine some stone femmes see the identity as their gender. And still to some, stone femme can reflect a preference for partnering with butches who in their opinion possess a degree of masculinity, a hardness in aesthetic, energy, etc. (not my personal use of the term as I believe it perpetuates a hierarchy myth, but trying to list all that I know) Bottom line is, none of this has to do with a person's gender and/or the alteration of physical self in respect to gender and being visible as such.

BUT...

That brings up the question - does a butch (stone or not), who is not male-identified or masculine-identified or female, but simply butch (as a gender), feel 'othered' or 'fetishized' by individuals who prefer to date them only/specifically? I can't speak to that obviously but I'd be interested to know if anyone cares to answer.

I definitely feel more comfortable with a woman being able to date me regardless of my trans status, as opposed to because of it.

[BullDog]

Thank you very much for your post Hudson. That was very informative.

Just to answer your question at the end, I don't feel at all othered or fetishized by someone stating that their preference is butch only. If that was all someone was interested in about me then that definitely would not be sufficient, but it's a good starting point since I am potentially within the range of attraction. Some people have broader ranges of attraction and some narrower. To me one is not better than the other.

[SFFemmePrincess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Well first and foremost I wanted to make sure this didn't get lost because it was a beautiful statement and I really appreciated it.

Now... Wow, I'm not even sure where to start. I am glad that healthy discussion is taking place, but a part of me also feels a tad disheartened that a thread that was started with the purest intentions to be SUPPORTIVE of T-Femmes and a space where we can find solace with each other and our allies, has sort of been turned into an indictment of our identities. But again, I am glad that discussion is taking place because that is how we all learn and grow...

I also find the discussion interesting because while my T-Femme identity is not solely based on my partner, it does have something to do with it. So does my lesbian identity. My identity as a writer, a photographer, a student, a gamer, are also dependent in different quantities of outside forces. If I was never attracted to women, then I probably wouldn't have taken on a lesbian identity, if words or cameras, schools, or video games didn't exist, then i wouldn't have those as part of my identity. So the idea that if trans guys didn't exist then I wouldn't have taken on the T-Femme identity, is relevant, but I don't think that it's a negative thing. But the fact that my partner happens to be a trans guy is only part of that part of my identity...

Now to answer some of the questions that have been asked and give my thoughts from my experience and speak my truth: This is ONLY how I perceive my identity and how it has evolved.

When I was growing up, I always knew I was different. But due to socialization, I thought I liked boys and dated them, but it just never really felt right. When I was finally exposed to the alternative, it was like the smoke had cleared. I just knew that I was gay. I came out as Bi out of fear, even though I knew I would never be with cismen again. My first girlfriend was sorta femme and I tried to be butch. (Which actually manifested as more of a faggy baby dyke then anything else.) After that I met my ex and it did almost feel that through her overt masculinity, I found my femme self.

My femme self has grown and evolved from just being a feminine lesbian, to being a femme lesbian, (which I believe are different, but that is another topic), to Transsensual Femme Lesbian. After that first girlfriend, every single other person I have been attracted to has had some degree of masculinity. And for me a part of my identity is about who I am attracted to. I keep the Lesbian part of it because I am still attracted to female id'd butches. But I am also attracted to male id'd butches, and trans butches, and trans masculine butches, etc. and I am attracted to trans guys. When I was exposed to the broad spectrum of butches and trans guys and found that I was deeply attracted to all the above, was when I added the Transsensual part to my identity.

Also, for me, while I firmly believe that love is not based on gender, I am not attracted to cismen, and don't think a relationship with a fully transitioned man who lived stealth and completely negated his past would work. I am too queer for that, and would like for my partner to move through the world by my side in that.

I think this is why Logic and I are so perfect together. I love my boyfriend, for his heart, not for his genitalia. And I believe that there are two very important factors for me that I think will make all the difference when/if he starts his physical transition. The first is that he will never let go of queer identity. He is a man, but he is not a straight male, and does not want me to be a straight female to that straight male. He is proud of me in my identity and he is comfortable in his queerness. I think that is important for me. The other factor is that we are on the journey together. His transition is happening in stages, and I am by his side every step of the way. This way I can adapt as he physically changes.

Finally for me, I feel like the Transsensual part of my identity is a accurate way to describe my evolution. I feel that my sensuality has and still is in transition as in movement or passage from one stage or state to another. Sexually, I am not the same person I was 11 years ago still dating the last cismale I ever dated. And I believe I will continue to move and grow and evolve forever...

Well those are my thoughts for the day, I hope I didn't ramble on too much...

[julieisafemme]

Hi Rainbow chick! Thanks for starting this thread. The title said SOFFAs so I thought it was ok for me to post here even if I do not identify as a transsensual femme. This conversation has been great for me. I need a space where I can listen to other partners of trans people. I need a space where I can think about and work out what my identity is. I think there is room for all the partners of transmen which includes butches, other transmen and gay men. The common denominator is that we all love someone who is gender variant, with or without a physical transition.

Originally Posted by Rainbowchick07

Well first and foremost I wanted to make sure this didn't get lost because it was a beautiful statement and I really appreciated it.

Now... Wow, I'm not even sure where to start. I am glad that healthy discussion is taking place, but a part of me also feels a tad disheartened that a thread that was started with the purest intentions to be SUPPORTIVE of T-Femmes and a space where we can find solace with each other and our allies, has sort of been turned into an indictment of our identities. But again, I am glad that discussion is taking place because that is how we all learn and grow...

I also find the discussion interesting because while my T-Femme identity is not solely based on my partner, it does have something to do with it. So does my lesbian identity. My identity as a writer, a photographer, a student, a gamer, are also dependent in different quantities of outside forces. If I was never attracted to women, then I probably wouldn't have taken on a lesbian identity, if words or cameras, schools, or video games didn't exist, then i wouldn't have those as part of my identity. So the idea that if trans guys didn't exist then I wouldn't have taken on the T-Femme identity, is relevant, but I don't think that it's a negative thing. But the fact that my partner happens to be a trans guy is only part of that part of my identity...

Now to answer some of the questions that have been asked and give my thoughts from my experience and speak my truth: This is ONLY how I perceive my identity and how it has evolved.

When I was growing up, I always knew I was different. But due to socialization, I thought I liked boys and dated them, but it just never really felt right. When I was finally exposed to the alternative, it was like the smoke had cleared. I just knew that I was gay. I came out as Bi out of fear, even though I knew I would never be with cismen again. My first girlfriend was sorta femme and I tried to be butch. (Which actually manifested as more of a faggy baby dyke then anything else.) After that I met my ex and it did almost feel that through her overt masculinity, I found my femme self.

My femme self has grown and evolved from just being a feminine lesbian, to being a femme lesbian, (which I believe are different, but that is another topic), to Transsensual Femme Lesbian. After that first girlfriend, every single other person I have been attracted to has had some degree of masculinity. And for me a part of my identity is about who I am attracted to. I keep the Lesbian part of it because I am still attracted to female id'd butches. But I am also attracted to male id'd butches, and trans butches, and trans masculine butches, etc. and I am attracted to trans guys. When I was exposed to the broad spectrum of butches and trans guys and found that I was deeply attracted to all the above, was when I added the Transsensual part to my identity.

Also, for me, while I firmly believe that love is not based on gender, I am not attracted to cismen, and don't think a relationship with a fully transitioned man who lived stealth and completely negated his past would work. I am too queer for that, and would like for my partner to move through the world by my side in that.

I think this is why Logic and I are so perfect together. I love my boyfriend, for his heart, not for his genitalia. And I believe that there are two very important factors for me that I think will make all the difference when/if he starts his physical transition. The first is that he will never let go of queer identity. He is a man, but he is not a straight male, and does not want me to be a straight female to that straight male. He is proud of me in my identity and he is comfortable in his queerness. I think that is important for me. The other factor is that we are on the journey together. His transition is happening in stages, and I am by his side every step of the way. This way I can adapt as he physically changes.

Finally for me, I feel like the Transsensual part of my identity is a accurate way to describe my evolution. I feel that my sensuality has and still is in transition as in movement or passage from one stage or state to another. Sexually, I am not the same person I was 11 years ago still dating the last cismale I ever dated. And I believe I will continue to move and grow and evolve forever...

Well those are my thoughts for the day, I hope I didn't ramble on too much...

[Bit]

I've been staying out of this thread... it pushed some big buttons for me and I needed a break. We'll see hopw far I get this time. *rueful look*

Originally Posted by evolveme

Except on a purely imaginary, play-pretend, lets-get-theoretical level, Bent can't answer these questions. I can sort of see why you asked him, but since I believe the effort was misplayed (not that I am hurt - I'm not) I'm going to answer.

My identity is in no way contingent upon the individual that I partner with, or any person with whom I might choose to enter sexual relations. My identity has never been and will never be "solely" defined by my sexuality.

That was my point, Julie. Bent was arguing that MY identity IS contingent on that; my question was rhetorical, really, since you've posted before and at length about how you identify.... I wanted him to look at you and look at me and see that we are the same that way, that NEITHER of us has based our identities on our partners.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Because of how I love, which is different than purely sexual desire (obviously), I am best to venture into relationship with a certain subset of masculine females and/or trans males.

Absolutely none of that defines me. It is only a marker, an indicator, as to my desires.

Again, you and I, we are the same--although I wish I had been this concisely articulate about it. You have just defined "Transensual" in the EXACT manner that I use it.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Should I say that my identity is heteronormative? Is that really what we're avoiding saying?

No, I don't think so. You might consider yourself heteronormative, but I sure don't... I live with a Butch, how can I be heteronormative? Everything I do is done with exquisite consciousness that I am NOT "just like a straight girl"--and that's deliberate. I think Queer, I live Queer, I love Queer.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I mean, as long as they aren't saying: I am Femmesensual (and let's face it; they're not - except Hey AZ!), and so few are saying "I id as straight," then it really isn't about identity for them in terms of us.

Maybe this is because they came to a stopping place before I did. Maybe they are content to simply say "Butch" or "Masculine" or whatever. I myself was once content to say "Lesbian" and after that content to say "Femme." But my life took me down a path that surprised, startled, and sometimes frightened me, a path that ultimately led me to the great joy of knowing myself as a whole person.

Being Transensual is about ME. It's about finally decoding my Owner's Manual, finally understanding who and what *I* am.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Someone will tell me my post is a derail.

No, don't think so. Any post that has such a succinct definition of Transensual in it--even though you choose not to use the word--cannot be a derail in a soffa thread.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Hell, Bit, she laughed!

Had e not answered already, my response to you would have been that my partner is a lesbian (whereas I am not) and that the question is hers, not mine, to answer (as she did).

I meant to make you both laugh; glad it worked. And again I say, just as the question was Julie's to answer, it is also MINE to answer. No one else may define Transensual for me.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

Drew, you are my hero for that wonderful post. Thank you, thank you.

You are not the only guy who has said that you feel on the periphery in B-F space. You are not the only guy who has said that you sometimes feel a Femme might be interested in spite of your being trans.

When I was single, I put my whole "label" in my profile, Queer Transensual Stonefemme, because I wanted to let Transmen and soffas know there was space for them at the B-F table. I wanted to be a visible marker that said, "Yes, Trans community and allies, you are not alone here; there is a place for us all."

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I understand what you are saying. The thing is there were a lot of people in this one workshop who *did* feel fetishized. They were pretty upset about it and it was a painful thing for them. It was hard for me to hear and I did not feel there was a place for me as a partner to express what it is about my partner that I love that is part of his trans experience. Because that is part of who he is and it part of why I love him.

I think it's important to back up here Julie, and separate out the two parts of your post. I understand that the Transmen felt fetishized, and of course that's horribly painful. It does immediately silence anyone who wants to talk about all the positive things she finds in her lover--because of course being supportive and caring, we can't bring ourselves to add to that pain.

But just who, exactly, did the fetishizing? Did they have concrete examples? Because I will tell you truly, hon, I have only EVER in seven years heard one Transman talk about one personal bad experience with Femmes; he overheard two idiots boasting about putting notches on their lipstick cases. Yes indeed, that was fetishizing, and distasteful---BUT they were boasting at the same time about the BUTCHES who were also notches on the lipstick case, so yanno, I have to think that was about the Femmes themselves, and NOT about the Transman, even though he took it extremely personally.

EVERY example of fetishization I have heard from Transmen after that has either been from Queers of one stripe or another who do not partner with Transmen, or straight people who, as you went on to say, "a long time to get past what bits someone has.".... I have not heard any Transmen speak directly about Transensual Femmes (or any other soffa) fetishizing them.

And now I must split my post... broke the character limit... oops.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Hudson

First, I am wondering, because I need to understand, if the transsensual femmes here include in their attraction trans men who have not yet, are uncertain, are unable, or do not wish to seek physical transition. Or are we talking exclusively about men who have completed or are well into their transitions or those who fully intend to?

Hudson, fyi, there is only one "s" in Transensual. It is not a direct cognate of Transsexual. When Rhiannon invented the word, she was looking for something that would fit in, soundwise, but that would also describe us separately.

Maybe that's part of the problem. What's it been, only ten years now since she invented it? Her definition was narrow; she only meant the direct partner of a Transsexual man... but in these ten years this word has grown and grown to fit our whole community. It no longer carries this narrow exclusive meaning; it's broadened to include all manner of people.

There are, of course, Transensual Butches. The focus in this thread is on Femmes, but I think it's always wise to remember that Butches can partner with Transmen OR with Transwomen--and so can Femmes.

And yes, speaking as a Transensual Femme, of course I am attracted to any Transsexual man, transitioned or not. I am also attracted to the whole spectrum of Transgendered Butches.

Originally Posted by Hudson

I think it's important to know if transsensual femmes make these distinctions or not in order to pinpoint a fetishism, if one exists. It's also an important distinction to be made if we're to know if transsensual femme stands alone on its own.

That doesn't make any sense to me, Hudson. There are Transensual Femmes who are like me and are attracted to the whole spectrum of TG Butches as well as Transmen in any stage of transition. There are Transensual Femmes who are attracted only to transitioned Transmen. There are Transensual Femmes who are attracted only to Transmen BEFORE they finish transition. There are any number of combinations of all of the above. It isn't a flat, one-dimensional identity. It can't be pinned immobile to a board like a smothered butterfly.

Originally Posted by Hudson

But being trans is only part of who I am just as being a femme or a girlfriend or a mother or artist or mechanic is only part of who she is. And so it's concerning (to me) if someone is focused on only this part of who I am as much for her as it is for me.

As far as I can tell, the only people who are focused on "only that part of you" are the people who are saying Transensual=fetishizer. Those of us who actually LIVE this life? You better be a whole person, mister, or you aren't going to get a second look.

Speaking she quickly disclaims only for me, of course... but really shocked if it's any different for any of the Femmes in this thread, no matter how we identify....

Originally Posted by Hudson

So when this topic comes up, I always have to ask myself, 'Would she choose a misogynist, sexist prick trans man over a feminist-ally, sensitive cissexual man?"

That's a ridiculous idea. I personally would not choose a misogynist sexist prick of ANY stripe--been there, done that, never repeating that mistake again, burned the t-shirt.

Originally Posted by Hudson

(or any less extreme example) If the answer is yes, or that she would go out and seek another trans man specifically because he's trans and would not consider a cissexual man who comes along with all the same qualities she seeks, I know she has put me in some special category (one in which I likely don't even place myself) and perhaps does not see me as truly male and we are both going to be unhappy (most especially if she's made this distinction because of some aversion she has to cissexual men).

This is a common prejudice in the Trans community. It does not allow for the variety of female attraction. Just as there are as many varieties of Transmen as there are of csimen, there are as many varieties of Femmes as there are of Transmen.

If a Transman needs a partner who is also attracted to cismen in order to believe that she will validate him as a man, then I would suggest he would be wise to find someone who was at least bisexual, if not pansexual. It's possible to find both, whether in or out of the Transensual Femme community.

Originally Posted by Hudson

And I want to know that she appreciates my past - the pain and the struggle as much as the 'good things' like my female upbringing/conditioning and realize that, the painful irony, for both of us, is that those things that make me desirable to her have also been a source of a tremendous amount of torment. She has to love and understand all of that. And I imagine that's extremely difficult for a woman to navigate and accept her own desires around that truth. I don't know.

Well, no; it's not.

It's hard to watch y'all suffer, hard to know there's a limited amount any of us can do to ease it. It's hard to put up with mood swings from incorrect doses of T. It's hard, sometimes, to take a backseat to some guys' self-absorption in the early stages of transitioning.... but to love you? To accept you wholeheartedly for who you are and where you've been? To walk the path into where you're going and who you'll be?

That might be scary the first time, but on the whole, it's easy and natural.

Mind you, I do speak from the vantage point of a lot of thought and several year's experience. It might be harder for someone who has only previously identified as a Lesbian or as a Femme, whose partner is newly transitioning---BUT the difficulty there will most likely be the same as it is in the beginning for most of us, I think, dealing with one's internalized transphobia, and then dealing with the ramifications [a partner's] transition will have on her family and community. Those two things are the major themes that seem to run through the soffa community as I have known it: loving you is easy, dealing with our own community is hard.

After that, of course, there's the individual differences in couples; major themes are, by necessity, pretty general. Any couple can have trouble based on their own personalities and pre-existing relationship stresses.... but that's hardly unique to couples with a transitioning partner.

Originally Posted by Hudson

The question BullDog raised is not the same (to me) as with women who prefer to date/partner with stone butches who are cissexual.

Aren't too many of them, honey. *shrugs* By far the majority of the Stone Butches I have known have had some varying degrees of GID or have identified as male. Most of the Stones I have known--even including some of the female-identified Stone Butches--have really wrestled with whether to transition. Many of them HAVE transitioned, so many that at one point I actually thought there was a link between a Butch being Stone and being Transsexual, as if the one might be a predictor of the other.

Originally Posted by Hudson

The identity of stone femme, depending on who you ask, carries a lot of different meanings. ...... I imagine some stone femmes see the identity as their gender.

Indeed *smiling* some of us do.

Originally Posted by Hudson

Bottom line is, none of this has to do with a person's gender and/or the alteration of physical self in respect to gender and being visible as such.

If I were not able to accept any gender a Stone Butch might express; if I were not able to accept top surgery or T--and some Stone Butches do either or both; if I were not able to accept the needs of any Stone Butch to explore both GID and whether or not he or she needed to transition; if I were not able to accept a Stone Butch's need to bind, pack, and pass as a man in the world, I would be a pretty lonely Stone Femme, since these are all common in the Stone community.

Transsexual men do not have a lock on the process, darlin. It is, from my experience, the same process that plays out among many GenderQueer and Third Gender Butches, as well.

In my personal experience, the most common theme among Butches of all identities is whether or not they should transition. This may be a skewed experience; it may be that because Butches usually find me someone who is able to accept and validate them no matter their ID, someone who is safe to say almost anything to, that I hear more about transitioning issues and questions than about other issues; it may be that other people would hear more about some other issues.... but I tell you truly that I have not met many Butches who have not had to wrestle the question to the ground.

What this means for me as a Transensual Femme is that the issues are not so different between Butches and Transsexual men; only the outcome is, and I am lucky enough to be able to walk the path with someone whether he transitions or not, whether he is a Butch or a Transsexual man, because I see him as he needs to be seen.

I suppose that's at the heart of the definition of Transensual for me: it describes my ability to see you, not as your body, but as YOU, your true self.

Call that a fetish if you will. Call me invalid if you will.

[atomiczombie]

Cath, I just want to say you are so super duper wonderful. The intelligence, grace and power of your posts always blows me away. You are a very strong woman as well as a sweetheart. I totally get what you mean by transensual, and I want to thank you for sharing your perspective.

[apretty]

i'm not understanding and/or i'm find this post problematic:

Originally Posted by Bit

speaking as a Transensual Femme, of course I am attracted to any Transsexual man, transitioned or not. I am also attracted to the whole spectrum of Transgendered Butches.

any?


If a Transman needs a partner who is also attracted to cismen in order to believe that she will validate him as a man, then I would suggest he would be wise to find someone who was at least bisexual, if not pansexual. It's possible to find both, whether in or out of the Transensual Femme community.

many transsexual men aren't interested in femmes because they're not interested in a B/F relationship, they've transitioned so that their *outside* can match their inside male-since-birth-selves. i don't see a thing wrong with that.



I think, dealing with one's internalized transphobia.


what's that?


these statements about 'majority of stone butches/any butches' wrestling with or even considering gender-re-assignment is hugely problematic for those one million butches that do not/have never/will not transition.

By far the majority of the Stone Butches I have known have had some varying degrees of GID or have identified as male. Most of the Stones I have known--even including some of the female-identified Stone Butches--have really wrestled with whether to transition. Many of them HAVE transitioned, so many that at one point I actually thought there was a link between a Butch being Stone and being Transsexual, as if the one might be a predictor of the other.

these are all common in the Stone community.
...
In my personal experience, the most common theme among Butches of all identities is whether or not they should transition. ...but I tell you truly that I have not met many Butches who have not had to wrestle the question to the ground.

I suppose that's at the heart of the definition of Transensual for me: it describes my ability to see you, not as your body, but as YOU, your true self.

Bit, i do read that you love you some trans-men, and that's great for you, but i wonder if you've considered that by making statements about your 'ability to see the transman as he sees himself' in a way that is a unique and special-to-a-stone/t-femme quality that you *other* and (as previously mentioned in this thread,) 'exoticize' loving a person that i propose, isn't such a big amazing deal. i feel this *othering* is, in fact, damaging if we ever want to normalize what it is to be a transexual human: with the focus where it should belong, on the *human*; good and worthy and flawed like the rest of us.

[Dylan]

May I ask a question?

What is the big deal if some femmes like the term T-femme, transensual femme, or SOFFA? Honestly, what is the big f-ing deal?

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[Cyclopea]

I prefer to hear femme voices in this femme thread posted in the femme zone.
Yes I am aware of the hypocrisy/irony of my non-femme post.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I prefer to hear femme voices in this femme thread posted in the femme zone.
Yes I am aware of the hypocrisy/irony of my non-femme post.

And I am so amused at the irony of this post.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

And I am so amused at the irony of this post.

Awesome!

[Words]

Brilliant post Dylan.

Words

Originally Posted by Dylan

May I ask a question?

What is the big deal if some femmes like the term T-femme, transensual femme, or SOFFA? Honestly, what is the big f-ing deal?

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[apretty]

holy manifesto!

Originally Posted by Dylan

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[julieisafemme]

Well Bit I can't go into the particulars as the rules of the workshops were what was shared was private. All I can tell you is that there were queers of all types mentioned. No one said a word about straight people.

OOHHHH EARTHQUAKE!!!! As I was typing. Scary!!

I am not quite clear on why you are invested in negating what was shared by these trans men and women? I am simply relating to you my experience. It is not a feeling my partner has experienced, nor is it an issue in our relationship. It was eye opening to me that this does occur.

This thread is for transensual femmes as well as SOFFAs. I am a SOFFA. A transensual butch could be a SOFFA. I think the discussion should be for all who love and support gender variant people.

Originally Posted by Bit

I've been staying out of this thread... it pushed some big buttons for me and I needed a break. We'll see hopw far I get this time. *rueful look*



That was my point, Julie. Bent was arguing that MY identity IS contingent on that; my question was rhetorical, really, since you've posted before and at length about how you identify.... I wanted him to look at you and look at me and see that we are the same that way, that NEITHER of us has based our identities on our partners.



Again, you and I, we are the same--although I wish I had been this concisely articulate about it. You have just defined "Transensual" in the EXACT manner that I use it.



No, I don't think so. You might consider yourself heteronormative, but I sure don't... I live with a Butch, how can I be heteronormative? Everything I do is done with exquisite consciousness that I am NOT "just like a straight girl"--and that's deliberate. I think Queer, I live Queer, I love Queer.



Maybe this is because they came to a stopping place before I did. Maybe they are content to simply say "Butch" or "Masculine" or whatever. I myself was once content to say "Lesbian" and after that content to say "Femme." But my life took me down a path that surprised, startled, and sometimes frightened me, a path that ultimately led me to the great joy of knowing myself as a whole person.

Being Transensual is about ME. It's about finally decoding my Owner's Manual, finally understanding who and what *I* am.



No, don't think so. Any post that has such a succinct definition of Transensual in it--even though you choose not to use the word--cannot be a derail in a soffa thread.



I meant to make you both laugh; glad it worked. And again I say, just as the question was Julie's to answer, it is also MINE to answer. No one else may define Transensual for me.



Drew, you are my hero for that wonderful post. Thank you, thank you.

You are not the only guy who has said that you feel on the periphery in B-F space. You are not the only guy who has said that you sometimes feel a Femme might be interested in spite of your being trans.

When I was single, I put my whole "label" in my profile, Queer Transensual Stonefemme, because I wanted to let Transmen and soffas know there was space for them at the B-F table. I wanted to be a visible marker that said, "Yes, Trans community and allies, you are not alone here; there is a place for us all."



I think it's important to back up here Julie, and separate out the two parts of your post. I understand that the Transmen felt fetishized, and of course that's horribly painful. It does immediately silence anyone who wants to talk about all the positive things she finds in her lover--because of course being supportive and caring, we can't bring ourselves to add to that pain.

But just who, exactly, did the fetishizing? Did they have concrete examples? Because I will tell you truly, hon, I have only EVER in seven years heard one Transman talk about one personal bad experience with Femmes; he overheard two idiots boasting about putting notches on their lipstick cases. Yes indeed, that was fetishizing, and distasteful---BUT they were boasting at the same time about the BUTCHES who were also notches on the lipstick case, so yanno, I have to think that was about the Femmes themselves, and NOT about the Transman, even though he took it extremely personally.

EVERY example of fetishization I have heard from Transmen after that has either been from Queers of one stripe or another who do not partner with Transmen, or straight people who, as you went on to say, "a long time to get past what bits someone has.".... I have not heard any Transmen speak directly about Transensual Femmes (or any other soffa) fetishizing them.

And now I must split my post... broke the character limit... oops.

[julieisafemme]

I am a femme. I don't think Bit or anyone else is being called out for how they identify. I know you can speak for yourself. I can speak for me too. I don't think it is a big deal at all how a femme chooses to identify. It is a big deal to me how *I* choose to identify. Right now I am not comfortable with transensual femme.

I do need a thread where I can talk about how I feel as a partner of a transmasculine butch. I feel very alone and isolated a lot of the time. Both in real time and online. I like hearing all the opinions and sharing things I have learned. I don't need a transman or a butch to come in here and tell who can post and what they can post. I am perfectly capable of that. The discussion that I am having with Bit and reading from others helps *me* place where I fit.

Originally Posted by Dylan

May I ask a question?

What is the big deal if some femmes like the term T-femme, transensual femme, or SOFFA? Honestly, what is the big f-ing deal?

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan