The Gendering of the Young

[Nat]

I'm not sure if anybody has seen this vid or if it's already been posted elsewhere, but basically it's a kid who is really enjoying Beyonce's "All the Single Ladies" until his father tells him he's not one.

The gendering of children - even newborn (well even prenatal) babies - is so common and expected. How do you feel about it? Do you participate in it? Do you work to counteract it?

[The_Lady_Snow]

In our household we try to counteract,,,,,

[DapperButch]

Yes, in my life, counteract.

In the father's, defense though, I think that his unconscious response is not unlike most peoples due to what we internalized growing up about gender. He seemed to immediately realize his mistake when he saw his child's face drop, and seemed to feel genuinely bad about it.

But yes, I agree that it is a big issue in our society and I think that it is a great thread topic.

[Cyclopea]

Awwww....what a cute little boy! Looks like he's not a big fan of sexism. Dad had a little feminist epiphany tho. Too cute.

[Andrew, Jr.]

This reminds me of my childhood.

[Greyson]

Hey there Natalie the Pure One. I saw the video sometime last week and it was very thought provoking for me. It made me think because I know I could say such a thing as "You're not a girl" to my young son without realizing the ramifications.

Always something to learn or in this case "unlearn." Good to see you here.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Nat

The gendering of children - even newborn (well even prenatal) babies - is so common and expected. How do you feel about it? Do you participate in it? Do you work to counteract it?

Hello, lovely. Great thread, as per usual.

When I knew I was pregnant, I picked a name that I knew I would use for a child no matter the sex. It's a word that has meaning and is used in daily language. I'd not heard this word used for a name before. But sure enough, my family members made certain to tell me that they were glad that my child had been born a girl, because what child could be a boy and be called this (very non-gender-specific) name? They were already gendering a word. (I've since learned of a child my daughter's age who shares her name and is a boy.)

I'd also decided that her clothes and toys would be as non-gender-specific as possible. That was a battle that I would have difficulty fighting. Although I stayed home with her for the first year, and she was sent to a very liberal and intentionally diverse nursery and primary school (socio-economic/religious/same-sex parents, etc.), and although I did not expose her to TV or other mainstream media for many years, what I think of as Pink Fairy Barbie Princess Ideology had gotten in. She wanted to be one. She WAS one.

She had the innate ability to create feathered dresses out of paper crafts. Wands out of sticks and glitter. The child was going to be Cinderella goddammit and she did not want to play with the trucks and tools I also supplied her. No way, man. Not happenin'.

I allowed her to be her own someone.

I can't know, and I think none of us can, how much socialization and conditioning work to manufacture and engineer what we think of as the gender norm, and how much of what I consider feminine or masculine arises from the human form naturally, as a matter of course and purpose and biological development. I simply cannot know the degrees. But I do know that if I hadn't finally broken down and bought that kid a Barbie (against my political preference) she would have never forgiven me.

I did NOT cave to the Bratz doll though. No way, man. No fuckin' way.

[julieisafemme]

My child finally did get a Bratz doll from her father. She played with it maybe one or two times and was over it.

My daughter liked boy things when she was little. Her first big girl panties were boys briefs with Thomas the Tank Engine on them. That is what she wanted. Now she likes sparkly pink stuff. I like girl stuff. Is it beacuse I was socialized that way? Maybe. Maybe not. You are exactly right in that it is hard to know what makes up gender.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hello, lovely. Great thread, as per usual.

When I knew I was pregnant, I picked a name that I knew I would use for a child no matter the sex. It's a word that has meaning and is used in daily language. I'd not heard this word used for a name before. But sure enough, my family members made certain to tell me that they were glad that my child had been born a girl, because what child could be a boy and be called this (very non-gender-specific) name? They were already gendering a word. (I've since learned of a child my daughter's age who shares her name and is a boy.)

I'd also decided that her clothes and toys would be as non-gender-specific as possible. That was a battle that I would have difficulty fighting. Although I stayed home with her for the first year, and she was sent to a very liberal and intentionally diverse nursery and primary school (socio-economic/religious/same-sex parents, etc.), and although I did not expose her to TV or other mainstream media for many years, what I think of as Pink Fairy Barbie Princess Ideology had gotten in. She wanted to be one. She WAS one.

She had the innate ability to create feathered dresses out of paper crafts. Wands out of sticks and glitter. The child was going to be Cinderella goddammit and she did not want to play with the trucks and tools I also supplied her. No way, man. Not happenin'.

I allowed her to be her own someone.

I can't know, and I think none of us can, how much socialization and conditioning work to manufacture and engineer what we think of as the gender norm, and how much of what I consider feminine or masculine arises from the human form naturally, as a matter of course and purpose and biological development. I simply cannot know the degrees. But I do know that if I hadn't finally broken down and bought that kid a Barbie (against my political preference) she would have never forgiven me.

I did NOT cave to the Bratz doll though. No way, man. No fuckin' way.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

My child finally did get a Bratz doll from her father. She played with it maybe one or two times and was over it.

My daughter liked boy things when she was little. Her first big girl panties were boys briefs with Thomas the Tank Engine on them. That is what she wanted. Now she likes sparkly pink stuff. I like girl stuff. Is it beacuse I was socialized that way? Maybe. Maybe not. You are exactly right in that it is hard to know what makes up gender.

Ha! I love her undies! Today, mine is thirteen and wears boxer briefs on occasion. I don't think it's a masculine gesture however. (I think she thinks it's sexy. Kill me.)

P.S. I told my wee one she could have Bratz when they started making an action figure (read: doll) for boys called Jerkz or Idiotz, but not a minute before.

[Gemme]

If I have a child, I'm not going to specifically aim for a gender neutral name, although it may very well happen, but it would not be a primary goal of mine. If I had a child and they felt their name did not fit them, and calling them by a nickname wasn't helping, and it was more than the usual "I hate my name" crap that most kids go through, then I'd help my child look into legally changing their name at an appropriate time (some time after bullies on the playground but before college apps when out).

As for toys and stereotyping sports or careers available to my child based on gender, I'm not having it. If I had a girl that loved Tonka trucks as much as Barbie, then she'll get both. If I had a son that really wanted to dance ballet or be a cheerleader then, by George, I'll do whatever I could to help him reach that goal.

Any child of mine will know two things, even if they forget anything else I will have taught them, they will know:

1. They are LOVED. Every day they will hear this, see this, feel this.
2. The only person(s) that can stop them from reaching their dreams and goals is their own self.

[BornBronson]

I always knew that i was loved by both my parents,but they were raised old school.My father is 81 this month and he alway told me that i could never be like him,which confused me because i'm just like him in many ways.But I suspect he was talking about me physically.My parents didn't care much that I was a tomboy,although i do remember once or twice my mother putting a dress on me,come to think of it it was probably only once,the other time must of been a bad nightmare.I played like a little boy(whatever that means) even though I knew that I was not one.I had two brothers that taught me the ways of being a guy,not that they were both experts themselves.The males in my family are sexist,you know the types,they believe men should look like men,women should look like women.Stuff like that only= insecurity in my book.But at a very young age I knew who I was and I never faught it,I just faught others who insisted that I look more 'womanly'.I was not like any 'normal looking girls' in this family/society,and I took pride in that.Yet still today I fight for who I am,I won't change for anyone,that includes my politics/beliefs/ect.Being a butch woman is a challenge in this world,but I like it.

[Soon]

Campbell Co. girl asked to leave school because of boyish appearance



Campbell Co. girl asked to stop attending school because of her "boyish" looks

LYNCHBURG, Va. -
You won't have any problem getting Sunnie Kahle to open up about her hobbies.


The energetic eight-year-old will proudly show you her collection of coins, hunting knives, and autographed baseballs.

"It's fun," she explained, when asked why she enjoys collecting those items.

Kahle likes teddy bears and colorful bracelets, but for the most part she's interested in things that might be considered "boy hobbies."

"Sunnie realizes she's a female, but she wants to do boy things," said Doris Thompson, Kahle's great-grandmother and legal guardian. "She wants to play rough and tough."

Thompson has raised Kahle since she was an infant. When she turned five, Thompson said she asked for a short hair cut.

"She had hair down to her waist and she wanted to give it to a child with cancer," said Thompson. "After we cut her hair she started wanting to wear jeans and a t-shirt. She didn't want to wear her frilly dresses anymore."

Her appearance started leading to awkward questions at school.

Kahle said her classmates would occasionally ask if she was a boy or a girl, but she said the question did not hurt her feelings.

The issue caught the attention of administrators at Timberlake Christian School, where Kahle was a student.

Elementary principal Becky Bowman sent home a letter last month, reminding Thompson of the school's religious affiliation and it's right to refuse students who contradict a "biblical lifestyle."

"We believe that unless Sunnie and her family clearly understand that God has made her female and her dress and behavior need to follow suit with her God-ordained identity, that TCS is not the best place for her future education," Bowman wrote in the letter, which was given to WDBJ7 by Thompson.

Thompson said she was offended by the letter's language and its references to biblical passages about sexual immorality.

"To claim that we are condoning sexual immorality in our home is nonsense," Thompson said. "We are Christians. We understand the Bible. Sunnie knows it very well. She has accepted Christ."

Thompson says Kahle is simply a tomboy, and that she's too young to understand sexual orientation or gender issues.

"If my child grows up to be homosexual or transgendered, I will love her that much more," Thompson said.

Although she wasn't forced to leave, Kahle is now in public school and no longer attending Timberlake Christian. She wishes things would have turned out differently.

"I should just be able to be me and not let them worry about it," Kahle said.

Jeff Abbett, administrator of Timberlake Christian Schools, sent WDBJ7 the following statement Tuesday afternoon:

"We are heart-broken that Sunnie’s grandparents have made her the subject of a public discussion. We regret that they made the decision to withdraw Sunnie immediately from Timberlake Christian Schools.

For confidentiality reasons related to a minor, it is not possible for us to explain in full detail the volume of documentation we have concerning the situation that the grandparents have made public. There is much more to this story than has been revealed related to Sunnie and the classroom environment. Our documentation shows a significantly different narrative than the one portrayed in the original news report.

You can be assured that we have cared for Sunnie and worked with her grandparents for several years to assist them. Our TCS teachers and administrators love Sunnie and we can assure everyone that this has never been an issue of hair length or boots as it has been portrayed. It has been our constant desire over the last several years to work with this family and to shepherd this precious little girl in a way consistent with traditional values.

As a private Christian school, we have the responsibility to all our students to assist parents to instill the Christian values upon which our school is founded.

We reiterate that the decision to remove Sunnie was entirely that of the grandparents."

Thompson said that Kahle never had any behavioral issues at TCS and maintained a 4.0 average in her academic work. She said the only disciplinary issue that Kahle might have caused was that she wanted to wear boy's pants as part of her school uniform.

[Soon]

http://www.wdbj7.com/blob/view/-/251...s-Thompson.pdf

[Ginger]

Maybe they need to make their policy toward students' gender expression more clear in their admission and recruitment materials. I'm assuming it's a private school, and doesn't receive federal or state funds.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Soon

http://www.wdbj7.com/blob/view/-/251...s-Thompson.pdf

That letter is just gross. God-ordained identity? Bloody hell

[Nat]

Saw this today and thought it was cute to see a depiction of a dad playing princess with his daughter. One of my coworkers admitted to doing much the same a few years back - wearing a tiara with his daughter and having tea with her.

[dykeumentary]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/fa...anted=all&_r=0

This is a link to a NYTimes article this week about parents of gay children. I know they were trying to be helpful, but here's the part that continues to be problematic:

"Parents aren’t blind, and the clues are often there. Some research suggests that sexual orientation can show itself even at 3 years old. In our family, by the time our youngest son came out at 13, my wife and I had long progressed from inkling to conviction. A toddler who wore a feather boa around the house and pleaded for pink light-up sneakers with rhinestones is probably telling you something, even if he doesn’t yet know what it is."

I look forward to the day when colors and accessories "equate" neither gender nor sexuality.

[Dance-with-me]

I thought I'd posted here before but apparently not. I've been raising my 6yo granddaughter since she was 20m, and she is "gender variant" and every year further affirms that she will be a boy named Michael when she grows up.

While I completely agree with Dykeumentary about wishing that colors and accessories weren't gendered, I have also seen that for a lot of these kids, having those gendered markers is crucial to their gender expression. For some kids it really is just about liking sequins or spiderman, pink or red, dolls or trucks. But for some of these kids the really important thing is to have something that allows people to recognize and validate that their gender does not match their bodies.

Want to write more but too difficult on my iPhone!

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I thought I'd posted here before but apparently not. I've been raising my 6yo granddaughter since she was 20m, and she is "gender variant" and every year further affirms that she will be a boy named Michael when she grows up.

While I completely agree with Dykeumentary about wishing that colors and accessories weren't gendered, I have also seen that for a lot of these kids, having those gendered markers is crucial to their gender expression. For some kids it really is just about liking sequins or spiderman, pink or red, dolls or trucks. But for some of these kids the really important thing is to have something that allows people to recognize and validate that their gender does not match their bodies.

Want to write more but too difficult on my iPhone!

Agreed, Dance-With-Me, but the reason I posted this is because they are using sequins as a marker for homosexuality. As usual, it comes back to consent. If a child chooses to use "gendered markers" to indicate their gender, that is great. My question is: To which markers can a child give informed consent that have anything to do with the kind of sex they'd like to have as an adult?

I guess the thing that makes me most sad about this is its just another article reinforcing tired old sexist assumptions. Not surprising that they reference the HRC several times.

[lisa93]

I do and don't to an extent.