Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Jess,

This speaks to me on so many different levels. Of particular interest today is how you pointed out that some of us use the word lesbian in a narrowly focused way. Yet, in doing so, the intent is not to take away from others or to be in opposition to others. I would add in to not be in competition with others as well.

I have asked repeatedly in this thread what is so threatening about lesbians, who define very narrowly asking for their own space to talk. I didnt think I was getting an answer. But, I was. I got so caught up in the forest, I couldnt see the trees.

For others, like me, who are connect-the-dots challenged, it occurred to me this morning, that it was people who narrowly define like me who excluded many women and lesbians back in the day.

One group we excluded was the butch-femme community. Thankfully they went ahead and made their own community. Here, those people we excluded found a home, a place to be all that they were.

And, a couple of days ago, here comes this narrow definition lesbian, asking for narrow definition lesbian space to discuss narrow definition lesbian stuff.

Deja vu? Wounds run deep. You, inadvertantly pick at the scars, the rawness of the wounds find the light of day.

Did I connect the dots in the right order?

I am not sure about Jess, but that is what I was trying to say!

Originally Posted by Kobi

Whoa, sometimes truths just blow me away in a good way. This is something, I too, am finding to be necessary at this stage of my life.
Maybe its part of why I have this need to reclaim my lesbianism in a very vocal, public way.

I have been in a stage where I preferred the word Dyke. I am seeing the importance of those of us who are Lesbians embracing the word and not making it about who has or has not accepted us...who has or has not suffered more.

Being a woman is hard and as we have been discussing standing up for ourselves seems to be less and less OK. I have been thinking about this lately in general so this really ties in for me.

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz -- yes. This is so clear and important. I appreciate and support your butch voice on this and realize that I may be wandering from a central and crucial point in the discussion.

Exposing the marginalization of butch women is very much a feminist issue and part of resisting sexism and misogyny.

Apologies if what I said felt at all dismissive.

Heart

Yes and yes!

Yesterday I was trying to say that Femmes are marginalized too, but I hope in doing so I did not come off sounding like ONLY Femmes are marginalized.

I am thrilled beyond belief to see actual Butches who id as Women speak up.

Yeay!

and

I do see how it is important from a Feminist standpoint to call myself Lesbian if I am in fact Lesbian, rather than thinking up cute other names I prefer.

ps. This does not however mean I will be listening to Lesbian music . I will find other ways to be supportive.

[Chazz]

Here's why I feel obliged to say: I see reclaiming lesbianism (sexual orientation) as somewhat different than (though, related) with reclaiming my womanhood/femaleness (biology - not gender)'.

It's important to me to acknowledge that not all lesbians are butches or femmes. That, to me, is Sisterhood.

Furthermore, there is an operative in play. That is the, often tacit, assumption that masculine butches are automatically assumed to be male-identified unless they say otherwise. (That may not be the operative in this thread, but it is in many places. It's why I feel obliged to be as succinct as possible.)

And, the nouveau construct that a female-bodied person partnered with another female-bodied person, may not be a lesbian.

It is a drag to have to issue disclaimers when talking about my identity and my desire for reconciliation, but it's an unfortunate reality when words have been redefined and appropriated by those who do not identity as women or lesbians.

[LipstickLola]

I am lesbian, nothing to reclaim, never was lost, nothing confusing to me......I just simply 'am'. I can be alone, or with others like me, I am what I am.......

[AtLast]

I have not experienced the negative impact that many within our community has via lesbians- my guess is that my experience is very much like what Heart has stated.

Yet, I certainly get how and why so many here have struggled with the term due to their past experiences. Reclaiming and applying what we know as queers to lesbian seems really important to me. There is just not one kind of lesbian and it is about time that it reflects how diverse the world we live in really is.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have not experienced the negative impact that many within our community has via lesbians- my guess is that my experience is very much like what Heart has stated.

Yet, I certainly get how and why so many here have struggled with the term due to their past experiences. Reclaiming and applying what we know as queers to lesbian seems really important to me. There is just not one kind of lesbian and it is about time that it reflects how diverse the world we live in really is.

I think that the difference is geographic. Even back in the 80's I actually remember seeing feminine and butch looking lesbians out in the bars in NYC and LA...while in TN everyone looked alike.

[CherylNYC]

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Jess,

This speaks to me on so many different levels. Of particular interest today is how you pointed out that some of us use the word lesbian in a narrowly focused way. Yet, in doing so, the intent is not to take away from others or to be in opposition to others. I would add in to not be in competition with others as well.

I have asked repeatedly in this thread what is so threatening about lesbians, who define very narrowly asking for their own space to talk....

....And, a couple of days ago, here comes this narrow definition lesbian, asking for narrow definition lesbian space to discuss narrow definition lesbian stuff.

Deja vu? Wounds run deep. You, inadvertantly pick at the scars, the rawness of the wounds find the light of day.

Did I connect the dots in the right order?

I'm still thinking about this "defining oneself in opposition" business....

Let's pluck out the term opposition from that statement and drop in the word, contrast.... As in, F/W IDed butches stand in contrast to male IDed butches - not in how we look, necessarily, but in how we identify. (I look mega butch - whatever that means - and, so what?)

Is there something about contrasting identities that some find unsettling, even as they are questioning our willingness to embrace diversity?

Why proffer veiled accusations about "opposition" and "oppression" in this thread?

Why would "we" experience a need for a thread about reclaiming lesbian pride if "we" weren't already painfully aware of "opposition", "oppression"?

For me, the answer to these questions lies in Feminism and in the Civil Rights Movement.... Here's an article by Marilyn Frye that offers insight.



OPPRESSION and the use of definition
by Marilyn Frye

"It is a fundamental claim of feminism that women are oppressed. The word "oppression" is a strong word. It repels and attracts. It is dangerous and dangerously fashionable and endangered. It is much misused, and sometimes not innocently.

The statement that women are oppressed is frequently met with the claim that men are oppressed too. We hear that oppressing is oppressive to those who oppress as well as those they oppress. Some men cite as evidence of their oppression their much-advertised inability to cry. It is tough, we are told, to be masculine. When the stresses and frustrations of being a man are cited as evidence that oppressors are oppressed by their oppressing, the word "oppression" is being stretched to meaninglessness; it is treated as though its scope includes any and all human experience of limitation or suffering, no matter the cause, degree or consequence. Once such usage has been put over on us, then if ever we deny that any person or group is oppressed, [Chazz says: Or fail, to explicitly say as much, every time we open our mouths] we seem to imply that we think they never suffer and have no feelings. We are accused of insensitivity; even of bigotry. For women, such accusation is particularly intimidating, since sensitivity is one of the few virtues that has been assigned to us. If we are found insensitive, we may fear we have no redeeming traits at all and perhaps are not real women. Thus are we silenced before we begin: the name of our situation drained of meaning and our guilt mechanisms tripped.

....The boundary that sets apart women’s sphere is maintained and promoted by men generally for the benefit of men generally, and men generally do benefit from its existence, even the man who bumps into it and complains of the inconvenience...."


READ THE ARTICLE IN ITS ENTIRETY AT: http://zinelibrary.info/files/Frye.pdf

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

Ahh, I made a woman squeal.... And, here I was thinking I'd hung up my squealer-majjig for awhile. it's nice to hear the sound of music, again.

Thank you, CherylNYC. I may be butch, you may be femme

[christie]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

Cheryl -

Thank you SO much for saying this! Its one thing for me to sit back and read posts and think, "Wow - that's some good shit - I completely understand that"; however, to have that validated, just thanks.

I feel so fortunate to not only get to share in the posts made by everyone here, but even moreso to have been a witness in watching that journey back to self-acceptance and its been quite amazing.

To me, "woman" has never been in question. I celebrate and rejoice in being a woman. I seek opportunities to set stereotypes of both woman AND lesbian on their ears and usually find them in the most unlikely of places (think line at the local wally world).

I do understand the herstory of how some might not have felt comfortable in claiming lesbian. I'm so glad to see it being embraced.

Kobi - a special thank you for starting the thread and hanging tough. Its spawned some pretty damned good stuff.

Christie

PS - i heart Heart too! I don't have nearly the experience and knowledge of feminism and am always delighted to read her perspective on things.

[Kobi]

As long as we are doing the kudos thing....and thank you for them....I would like to add that I am absolutely thrilled by what I am seeing here.

It is truly awesome to see the insights, knowledge, personal truths, thoughts, feelings, and just everything that is unfolding here. It takes a lot of courage to speak up about this stuff and there is certainly no shortage of bravery here.

I am very proud of both the folks who are contributing and of those who graciously stepped aside to allow this discussion to develop.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

And, the nouveau construct that a female-bodied person partnered with another female-bodied person, may not be a lesbian.

This is the second time today I have seen this. My brain is a little fried tonight but I am quite sure I did not get a memo on this. What is this about?

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is the second time today I have seen this. My brain is a little fried tonight but I am quite sure I did not get a memo on this. What is this about?

My understanding of it is that the individuals involved may not, for their own reasons, identify as lesbians. A bisexual female couple, for example.

Very interested to hear others' interpretations, though.

[Apocalipstic]

I think even though this is a website owned by Lesbians, the Butch Femme community has really been hard on what I call BullDykes.

Shes have been told they can't be Shes and that they need to change their names to male names. Not by this website, but out in the community and on other websites.

Not taking away from any other identity. Not being phobic.

I think that because of that checkered past, a place specifically labeled as Lesbian is needed to make sure Lesbians feel welcome too. Lesbians have somehow ended up feeling like a minority and I get that.

I think its cool that one was asked for and that it was set up and that Medusa gets it and came in to explain and show her support!

Kobi that you for starting this thread and AtLast and Chazz and AJ and BullDog and Heart and Toughy and each and every one of you for consistently reminding us that some of us here and now are women who love women and that is definitely something to be way proud of!

[Heart]

Well... in the language of my ancestors... I am verklempt!



These posts have been so moving and gratifying.... much thanks to all of you.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

And, the nouveau construct that a female-bodied person partnered with another female-bodied person, may not be a lesbian.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding of it is that the individuals involved may not, for their own reasons, identify as lesbians. A bisexual female couple, for example.

Very interested to hear others' interpretations, though.

Yes ScandalAndy, you hit the nail on the head.

Earlier in this thread there was some back and forth about what being a "lesbian" actually means. It gave me pause for thought. I went down a certain path with it, which is not to imply there aren't different paths. Here's what I got on that.

There is a difference between being and doing.... Two straight/bisexual/...... women "doing it" with one another, does not qualify them as lesbians. A sex act and sexual orientation are not one and the same.

My sense of myself is about a great deal more than sex and gender identity.

I'm not an ally to women - I am a woman. A woman living in a sexist/homophobic/racist/ageist/patriarchal culture? I do not have the luxury of obsessively focusing on my gender to the exclusion of all else. Being a masculine woman does not confer protection.

For clarity sake: I'm a Lesbian Feminist, butch - not a Feminist. I have a different heritage than heterosexual Feminists. Something, I wish Feminism bashers would remember when they bring up the 2nd Wave gender wars. I, a butch, was the one getting bashed and marginalized by some Feminists. It was my war, not other people's war by proxy, or for the dubious purpose of dismissing all Feminists. Despite it all, I still find Feminism to be my way.

The "lesbian" designation is crucial to my Feminism because it says that my daily, lived life IS a political landscape. I've thrown my life open to political analysis. For me, the personal is political.

Gender theory has a different imperative. It's primarily about the personal - i.e. the political is (in service to the) personal.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I'm still thinking about this "defining oneself in opposition" business....

Let's pluck out the term opposition from that statement and drop in the word, contrast.... As in, F/W IDed butches stand in contrast to male IDed butches - not in how we look, necessarily, but in how we identify. (I look mega butch - whatever that means - and, so what?)

Is there something about contrasting identities that some find unsettling, even as they are questioning our willingness to embrace diversity?

Why proffer veiled accusations about "opposition" and "oppression" in this thread?

Why would "we" experience a need for a thread about reclaiming lesbian pride if "we" weren't already painfully aware of "opposition", "oppression"?

I really like this idea of using "contrast" for a lot of reasons. To me, it seems to be a less threatening, more soothing word. It fits the intent of this discussion better. And, it feels more like a bridge to others.

Contrast implies more of a cooperative stance of equals.

Opposition/oppression implies more of a divisive, defensive stance of competitors.

Diversity is about contrasting parts of a whole.

Chazz, did I get my semiotics right?

Words, how we use them or misuse them, have profound effects on both the message sent and the message received. Is good to have reminders to choose our words carefully.

[Kobi]

A lot of good stuff is coming out of this discussion. I have been looking for themes that might benefit from having their own space to ferret stuff out a little more.

One of those themes was butch lesbians reconciling with the female/woman part of themselves.

There is now a thread called Lesbian Butches - Coming home to ourselves. Feel free to check it out.

[dreadgeek]

I also wanted to thank others who have participated on this thread and particular shout-outs for Kobi, for starting it and Heart for, well, being Heart.

Most of you know I'm not particularly effusive with my emotions--at least not here--I would like to say that I was profoundly relieved when I started to see how this thread was going. Quite honestly, I had been wondering if it was just me. I had really started to doubt myself because it seemed that some of the ideas that others have expressed concerns about appeared to be accepted as self-evidently true to so many within the queer community.

It's a relief to know I'm not alone in valuing being butch, lesbian and a woman.

cheers
Aj

[Kobi]

As part of all this reclaiming, I am looking for current writings on the gay community per se and feminism.

I found a couple of books in the library system on gay stuff but was not so lucky with the contemporary feminism stuff. Anyone know who the contemporaries might be? Be easier to search with names.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

As part of all this reclaiming, I am looking for current writings on the gay community per se and feminism.

I found a couple of books in the library system on gay stuff but was not so lucky with the contemporary feminism stuff. Anyone know who the contemporaries might be? Be easier to search with names.

The World Split Open - [ame="http://www.amazon.com/World-Split-Open-Movement-Changed/dp/0140097198"]Amazon.com: The World Split Open: How the Modern Women's Movement Changed America, Revised Edition (9780140097191): Ruth Rosen: Books[/ame]


Gender Trouble - [ame="http://www.amazon.com/RC-Bundle-Feminism-Subversion-Routledge/dp/0415389550/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313064748&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: RC Series Bundle: Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity (Routledge Classics) (9780415389556): Judith Butler: Books[/ame]



I know there are a few others, but I'm blanking on the names right now. I'll get back to you.