Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by tapu

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians.

Well obviously because all us Femmes know our places as submisive delicate petals.

Seriously, I think its just a different more stylized font. I know the artist and no way does she think Butch should be capitalized and Femme not.

ps...is that your sig line?

[tapu]

I need to be more serious.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

Heart,

Bear with me while I try and ferret something out in my head here.

From what I am understanding, you are saying the exclusion of what was perceived as extremes in the lesbian/feminist movement (i.e. conflating masculinity with male and pushing out women who were too masculine, and alienating women who were too feminine, seeing them as tools of the patriarchy rather than empowered queers) was a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement.

Is it possible, that the leadership back in the 70's knew in order to successfully rebel against the patriarchy and to establish women and lesbian on women and lesbian terms, they had to remove elements that represented and reinforced the very thing they were fighting against?

Is it possible, that the leadership saw or intuited something they didnt have words for i.e. the gender/identity issues we struggle with now?

Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Is it possible, that they knew a strong matriarchial foundation was needed to withstand future attempts to infiltrate/dismantle/alter it by an insidious, pervasive, and dominant patriarchial, heteronormal ideology?

Is it possible, they knew, without a strong matriarchial foundation, the greatest threat to existence and success could and would come from within?

Given the things we now face, which have been amply described throughout this discussion, it is possible in retrospect, that what is seen as a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement was, in actuality, very prophetic and visionary?

This just keeps floating around in my head and I'm trying to get a handle on it. Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

[Dude]

How weird is this ,to (now) feel like a minority
in a place that has butch in the title.

I am grateful it is there for sure but the lean
or shifting to all things male is fairly significant
based upon the support (or lack of it ) in this thread.

Can we be allies without being squashed out at a later
date when we arent quite as needed?
I fucking hope so.
To me it feels competitive almost.

I wish I had a better way to explain it.

[Heart]

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

[Toughy]

Butches (and femmes) ARE women and lesbians.

It should be telling to anyone that if Jack, Bully and myself felt unheard and left the steering committe that something is truly wrong with the picture. My beef had to do with including 'trans' as a target audience rather than an ally. I knew then that butch lesbian women were going to be shoved aside and that masculinity and male would be the end focus.

I can't even finish reading Joe's statements because my head will explode. They really need to change the name to 'Masculine of Center Voices' because to call it 'Butch Voices' is an outright lie.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

Heart,

Thank you.

My best recollection is what occured 40 years ago in my own, isolated corner of the world. I do remember complexities with male id's and those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Must factor in your thoughts to everything else floating around my head.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Heart,

those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Perceived being the operative word. Bias and assumptions about the "traditional roles" embodied in butch-femme negated the subversive and very queer nature of butch-femme relationships. An opportunity to unite diverse queer woman was thus lost, and, I believe may have even provoked some of the divisions we see now between transmale and queer women's communities.

This is not to throw blame upon lesbian-feminists of the 1970s alone. There's enough accountability to go around. I maintain that co-opting male privilege, (as in privileging male/trans/masculine voices over women's voices), and unexamined misogyny and sexism in transmale communities also plays a part in current divisions.

Heart

[Martina]

i am not butch. i do not know what has been happening in the Butch Voices organization or beyond it re their mission statement other than the few things i have seen here and on Facebook.

i am not going to comment on it.

i may be beating a dead horse here, but i am still furious with the statements about femme identity. Those should not be allowed to stand. i am not commenting on the Butch Voices issues because in many ways it's not my fight and i have confidence in the butches for whom it is.

But femme ID is mine to claim, and i damn sure want no one, surely not someone NOT femme, to tell me OVER and OVER how easy MY struggle is.

i mean WTF????!!!!!!!!!

It feels like misogyny to have that stand.

[Dominique]

No doubt, it was said someplace....just a couple more things to splinter our community. I thought I was being overly sensitive to exactly what Martina stated. Consequently, I refrained from an explanatory treatise.

Perhaps I am too passionate to express in writing when I am irked.

[Heart]

Martina - several femmes, myself included did not "let it stand." we responded and refuted. I understand your fury. What do you need?

Also, I don't see such a division between butches and femmes re the BV conflicts. Because it is, in many ways, a queer women's issue, and I am a queer woman.

Heart

[tapu]

Originally Posted by June

Butch, Lesbian and Feminist are tenets of our community language and shared culture. When did they become "Bad" words? Why?

That line is signature-worthy.

[Martina]

Thanks Heart and Yellowband. i kind wish it had been removed. But i didn't even report it. i just wanted to see some of my fury reflected here too. Sigh. Man, that upset me. Wow.

Re BV, partly i just know so little about it.

[tapu]

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by tapu

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

Is this where I get to express my feelings of feeling invisable?

What do you have in mind?

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by tapu

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by tapu

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me).

[tapu]

My work here is done.