A Question for Understanding

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Linus

I identify as a trans guy. I recognize my past of where I came from. At least at this point. I may later decide to drop the trans part but I did start my transition late in life and perhaps that's why I hold on to it. It's just a personal view of one's gender.

Linus, thank you for clarifying "At least at this point. I may later decide to drop the trans part."

I have seen many of us here change our ideas and/or gender identification as we move through transition or as a person who is not "transitioning" and open to learning, changing an opinion, an idea.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by chefhmboyrd

for me....
i just move about the world, and don't concern myself about what other people "think" i am. i definitely "pass" as cis-male, but i work in the same place, hang out with the same people, and do all the same things i did before transition. the only thing that is different, even though i am pre-op, is i go shirtless in public. i just don't give a shit... just like honey badger.

Lol! You just made my day

[DamonK]

I don't wanna be seen as straight. I id as a transguy. The trans part is important to me. It reminds me of all the battles to get here... All I've lost and all I've gained. I wish some battles ended differently, but I'm proud I had to courage to go ahead...knowing what price I would pay. For me, to id as straight male, would undermine this. And, for me, I paid too high a price to not honor my sacrifices. Thus, I'm a queer transguy that happens to like a select few women and other transguys.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by DamonK

I don't wanna be seen as straight. I id as a transguy. The trans part is important to me. It reminds me of all the battles to get here... All I've lost and all I've gained. I wish some battles ended differently, but I'm proud I had to courage to go ahead...knowing what price I would pay. For me, to id as straight male, would undermine this. And, for me, I paid too high a price to not honor my sacrifices. Thus, I'm a queer transguy that happens to like a select few women and other transguys.

I completely understand the feeling and importance of sacrifices and "battles" we have endured in each of our lives.

Your words struck me, as more than a few folks question me about my site name...thought i was femme...or it didnt fit me.

I keep it because of what i went thru years ago when i was first getting in the department. It was something i would not want to go thru again.... ignorance can be bliss... and yes for me too it was a high price to pay.

I,m not saying i know what it like to be trans.... i,m just saying i know what it like to pay a high price and have it effect my verbage.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by firegal

I completely understand the feeling and importance of sacrifices and "battles" we have endured in each of our lives.

Your words struck me, as more than a few folks question me about my site name...thought i was femme...or it didnt fit me.

I keep it because of what i went thru years ago when i was first getting in the department. It was something i would not want to go thru again.... ignorance can be bliss... and yes for me too it was a high price to pay.

I,m not saying i know what it like to be trans.... i,m just saying i know what it like to pay a high price and have it effect my verbage.

I think that anyone who questions your user name, needs a new hobby.

[EnderD_503]

I also just wanna say, after reading a few other posts, that I don't think wanting to be recognised as a transguy rather than being stealth means that you're less of a transguy. I definitely don't identify as gender neutral or third gender/sex (though I do think there are more than two sexes, that sex is more complicated than cismale/cisfemale and identify my own sex as transmale if someone asks).

It doesn't mean you're any less serious about being recognised as a guy...the problem is that society only wants to see cisguys as legitimate so it expects transguys to want to be exactly like cisguys and "pass" as them. I just don't want anyone to assume transguys who aren't stealth because they don't want to be are any less transguys than people who want to be stealth. Also, we shouldn't be seen as having had the "choice" to be transguys anymore than any other transguy or more than anyone who is cis female or cis male. I didn't choose to be a transguy anymore than a cisguy chooses to be a cisguy...but neither do I think that because I didn't have a choice that it's something I'm upset with or feel bad about. Just because you don't have a choice doesn't mean you aren't happy with who you are. People don't choose who they're attracted to either but doesn't mean they're unhappy about it (at least I'm not ). I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth. It also shouldn't be assumed that transguys who are more open about who they are are no-op and/or no-ho. Depends on the person. Some of us just have/want surgery and don't want hormones, others just want hormones and don't want surgery, others of us want/have surgery and are also on T, others of us have been on hormones and then stopped etc. There's just as much diversity as with transguys who want to be entirely stealth and there's no one way to be a transguy.

What is making it easier for those of us who don't want to be stealth is that there is less control over our bodies by psychiatric institutions. Hormones are much easier to get (at least here) without a letter from a psychiatrist and there are more options as far as how to get surgery than there was in the past. Shrinks don't have as much power to gatekeep as they used to.

[Quintease]

I've been pondering this question as I don't really understand how a guy can look like a 'transman' rather than a 'man'. I've noticed there is a certain point in their transition where they look like men (or boys) and there is no going back from that. Even boys who stop taking their testosterone look like young men rather than transmen.

I guess some boys look for 'the look' when they're in queer spaces so they can recognise each other but that's just guesswork. From where I'm standing transguys don't 'look' different to any other man. Not all transguys look straight however, some most definitely look gay, some look queer and some attract both sexes regardless of how they look. I do know a guy who most definitely ID's as trans, but in public spaces, even in gay public spaces, he's taken as a cisgendered man.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I also just wanna say, after reading a few other posts, that I don't think wanting to be recognised as a transguy rather than being stealth means that you're less of a transguy. I definitely don't identify as gender neutral or third gender/sex (though I do think there are more than two sexes, that sex is more complicated than cismale/cisfemale and identify my own sex as transmale if someone asks).

It doesn't mean you're any less serious about being recognised as a guy...the problem is that society only wants to see cisguys as legitimate so it expects transguys to want to be exactly like cisguys and "pass" as them. I just don't want anyone to assume transguys who aren't stealth because they don't want to be are any less transguys than people who want to be stealth. Also, we shouldn't be seen as having had the "choice" to be transguys anymore than any other transguy or more than anyone who is cis female or cis male. I didn't choose to be a transguy anymore than a cisguy chooses to be a cisguy...but neither do I think that because I didn't have a choice that it's something I'm upset with or feel bad about. Just because you don't have a choice doesn't mean you aren't happy with who you are. People don't choose who they're attracted to either but doesn't mean they're unhappy about it (at least I'm not ). I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth. It also shouldn't be assumed that transguys who are more open about who they are are no-op and/or no-ho. Depends on the person. Some of us just have/want surgery and don't want hormones, others just want hormones and don't want surgery, others of us want/have surgery and are also on T, others of us have been on hormones and then stopped etc. There's just as much diversity as with transguys who want to be entirely stealth and there's no one way to be a transguy.

I'm pretty sure my post was at least one of the posts you are responding to. Please note that I inserted every qualifier and caveat I could to cover you, and explicitly said that my generalizations and potential scenarios would apply to NO ONE as an individual. But I do want to say that I in no way think anyone is "less" of a transman for any reason. I am not quantifying or qualifying anything - just trying to cover an incredibly vast array of possibilities for someone asking a question
The problem with language is that it's only representative, it's not the truth itself; at least on one level, but that opens up a whole different discussion. I tried very hard to qualify everything I said - but you are very specific, which puts you in the position of being mistaken - for instance, you say, " I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth." You directly juxtapose being "stealth" with being proud. I am very proud. I am probably also what most would call "stealth". I am, in reality a transman. However, I do not identify as one personally. For me, it is a term that describes how I came to be seen as male, some physical attributes, and the fact that I lived as a dyke for a long time. How does one be "exactly like a cisguy"? There are just as many ways to be a cisguy ...
BTW, I don't live "stealth". MOST people you describe as "stealth" do not like that term. Most feel they are being perceived as who they are for the first time in their lives - it suggests hiding, when they feel that in fact they are finally being seen. I am who I am and people can assume what they want. I didn't change jobs or move - but after all this time some know, some don't, and none of it impacts who I am. Me, I'm just a guy, with a complicated history I do not reject or pretend was a mistake.
Some people DO choose to transition - to attach different pronouns, define differently than they had. I did. Surgery, coming out, hormones, name changes - all were very active and PITA choices. And there are MANY who CHOOSE not to transition and remain women, and continue to identify as women, as much as it irks them. I know three very well. They feel uncomfortable claiming to be male in any way even though they feel male, and feel they would have been more at ease living as male.
Rather than debate these particulars, and that's what they are, incredibly personal particulars, I think it's much better, more respectful of all our paths, to not play semantics. It could get very nasty and silly and tiresome - I did my best to qualify what I said, I said "some" everywhere I could, and again, indicated that there are as many ways to be male, and to be trans, as there are to be human. And by "third gender" I meant, something *other* than cis-male and cis-female. I would just like you to note that you were very specific, and made pronouncements for us all - not an upsetting thing because *I know what you mean*.

We should ALL be very careful not to pronounce the truth from our own limited and evolving perspectives.

[weatherboi]

Personally I wish that people would just speak for themselves when talking about identifying.It is a good way not to have to use qualifiers, supporting the idea that id's are personal experiences without the boundaries bestowed upon us by people that don't live our reality. I think this is the difference between being specific about one's experience and speaking for others.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Personally I wish that people would just speak for themselves when talking about identifying.It is a good way not to have to use qualifiers, supporting the idea that id's are personal experiences without the boundaries bestowed upon us by people that don't live our reality. I think this is the difference between being specific about one's experience and speaking for others.

Agreed. I shouldn't have even tried to address that question! Stupid, stupid stupid (slapping head).

[Stronghealer]

I pass and I don't pass.

ex. : at work, a great number of colleagues knew me before I began testosterone.Let's face it : my gender status gets around : i.e. gossip

My identity is queer.
I date and fall in love with femmes.
I am trans.
I am butch.

A fellow transman describes himself as a hybrid (Greyson)...and I identify strongly with that description!




.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by GrahamsGirl

I posted this question in another thread, but I guess it wasn't to correct one. I am asking so I can understand, so please do not feel as if I am judging or anything else. Thanks for helping me to understand.

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

Waves to GG!
Confusing question, I wonder if you could explain it differently.

Since you are talking passing, I will assume that you mean in all walks of life.
I don’t think when guys transition they think, I will be a trans-guy or I will be str8*. I think they just want to be seen as who they are by the rest of the world. They know who they are inside.

I think it takes years and years of figuring out just where we fit in. Sometimes like others have said our ids change. We find a place that feels right for us. Some choose to carry on with the trans status, some say st8*, some just a guy trying to get through this life.

Some of it has to do with where you live. Live in BF Egypt and one will most likely say st8* but if they are passing they most likely don’t have to say anything. No one ask them. They just want to be safe and enjoy life.

If they live in SF or someplace where there are many trans-guys and for the most part it’s safe to just be, they may take on just saying trans.

I pass, and have for many years, at one point I would say st8* if one had asked me. I don’t think I was asked unless I was in an LGBT environment.

Now that I am in that type of environment every day, it’s just assumed that I am some str8 guy working at the LGBT Center, or I am gay. So some days to make a little clarification I say no I am a trans-guy. Usually you don’t have to say a gay trans-guy, or a st8* trans-guy. Just trans-guy is enough. Even though there is a huge difference.

I think most of us, just want to be ourselves without all the labeling. We just use the labeling as a way to walk thur life.

good to see you and Graham around

[Mike]

Originally Posted by GrahamsGirl

I posted this question in another thread, but I guess it wasn't to correct one. I am asking so I can understand, so please do not feel as if I am judging or anything else. Thanks for helping me to understand.

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

I am wondering after to thinking about this some more if you meant: How does a transguy pass as a transguy at LGBT specific functions? And not just a st8* guy off the street showing up.

if so, I guess the best thing to do when in doubt is ask them: how they came to be at a bf function or whatever the function is. Most transguys i know dont have a problem saying they are trans to enlightening folks that they might belong there.

The problem is most dont ask, they just assume that some st8* guys wondered in off the street to crash the party.

When in doubt, ask.

I wanted to add, also, just for the sake of saying, its nobodyelse's place to say , oh so and so is a transguy or so and so is butch, or so and so femme. People realy should ask the folks they are inquiring about themself. Even where i work, it's up to me to tell ppl I am a trans guy or not.

Where we get into trouble is assuming ; ie: butches use male pronouns, femmes dont strap, and so on.



thanks

[G Snap!]

So far some great responses on this thread. In regards to my question, thank you everyone who responded to it. I love hearing your personal journies. I liked the one comment about a transguy refering to himself as a hybrid, as my guy chefhmboyrd could wear that title too.

I hope GrahamsGirl has time to read through this thread in hopes she has gotten her question answered. If I could go back and re-do my post, I would rather ask "why would a transguy want to pass as a transguy, rather than just as a guy" to keep it more in context of GrahamsGirl's original question:

Originally Posted by GrahamsGirl

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

I think Mike did a great job keeping this in mind, and a few other posts did too.

[Corkey]

I just changed my identifier to Human, because it really doesn't matter how I identify in this space, I'm always going to be a human being. My pronoun remains He.

[theoddz]

I pass as a cis guy all the time.....unless I out myself, then I get a lot of jaw drops. I am post-op and have been on T for going on 6 years now. I think there are a few physical characteristics that people take, at first sight, as "automatic" indicators of gender. In particular, things like a man's size (a lot of the time), deep voice, facial hair, etc., that tells someone "okay, he's a guy", or "okay, she's a woman" (breasts, features, size, voice, etc.). Most people, I don't think, are really in tune to transfolk, so unless there's something that just obviously sticks out, their minds just aren't geared to automatically pick up on things right away. There are things, I think, which amount to certain behaviors, mannerisms, finer details, that some people might pick up on after first sight impressions, that might "out" a trans person, but these are secondary things and some are so slight that they might not even be noticed until after getting to know a trans person more. That's been my observation, at least.

That being said, I do want to add that I don't think I have a lot of the more "negative" (so to speak) attitudes or feelings of entitlement to "privilege" that many cis men do. In the company of my XY brothers, I think that it is noticed when I don't join in or engage in the nut-scratching, knuckle-dragging, female bashing behaviors that men sometimes engage in when not in the company of females. Yes, men do act differently when women aren't present and some of that behavior can be pretty gross. I thought so when I was perceived as "female" and I still think so, now that I am presenting as completely (cis) male. I like to think that I'm a male feminist and other (cis) men take notice of it. I've gotten quite a few raised eyebrows after I've popped off to these guys for their gross behavior.....and I do it unapologetically. I do have to say that when I call their behavior/comments out, I do it in the context of, "How would you feel if someone said that about your wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister??".

My roots are in the GLBTQ community. I lived 45 years in a "female" skin, although that was horribly uncomfortable for me, but it was enough to know that rude, crass, sexist, obnoxious behavior isn't attractive in anyone and it only makes whomever exhibits it less appealing, whomever they are. It just makes me angry.

I don't necessarily want to be perceived as either a transguy or a cis guy. I prefer to just be perceived as a decent, evolved man. The rest I just really don't care about, one way or another. I'd rather be perceived as who I am, rather than what I am.

I hope that makes sense.

~Theo~

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by G Snap!

So far some great responses on this thread. In regards to my question, thank you everyone who responded to it. I love hearing your personal journies. I liked the one comment about a transguy refering to himself as a hybrid, as my guy chefhmboyrd could wear that title too.

I hope GrahamsGirl has time to read through this thread in hopes she has gotten her question answered. If I could go back and re-do my post, I would rather ask "why would a transguy want to pass as a transguy, rather than just as a guy"

I would really like to ask why it is confusing that a transguy would want to "pass" (meaning be perceived by others) as a transguy. I have an idea of why people find it confusing, but I don't want to assume. I would really appreciate it if someone could answer that for me.

Also, what is "just a guy"? What is the assumption being made by people when they see someone as "just a guy"? Can a transguy not also be "just a transguy"? And what is the benefit of being seen as "just a guy" vs. "just a transguy"?

EDIT: Also, a note about transguy vs. cisguy vs. guy/man. We need to recognise that in our society man and guy = cisman. When people say man they think of people who were born with penises and testicles. Man/guy is society's word for cisman/cisguy and it is the trans community that has begun using cis and/or non-trans in front of words like man/woman/guy/girl/male/female. Many place cis in front of these terms as a way of showing that there is no such thing as "just a man" in our society precisely because "just a man" brings with it certain connotations. There is no distinction in society. And when society looks at transguys/transmen they see people who "want to be like 'real' men"...aka cismen.

[stargazingboi]

I’ve been sitting here thinking about how to respond to this question. As someone pointed out there are those who are pre-op, and then there are those who move forward and take hormones and have surgeries and become post-op. Each make these choices individually, no two are alike.

I will always be pre-op. Why? Because medically my body cannot handle what it takes to transition. I then had to find myself and learn how to except me for me. I had to realize that I was created this way and that I am not a mistake. That being said, because I am not on hormones and have not had surgeries, there are times I “pass” and other times I do not.

I live and ID as a TG in my work and in my social life. What does this mean for me? Well, I surely do not introduce myself as a TG. Like another poster pointed out, I don’t say: hello my name is and I’m Tg. However, when I am asked questions that encompass a gender clarification, I answer them. For ME I choose to discuss it because I find that education is the key to unlocking ignorance and fear in those around me. I work for the state, for my agency I am the first TG to be hired, and because of those discussions …HR forms were changed, as well as education/trainings that included all aspects that surround gender …a series of training came about because of it. I am proud of who I am and in many ways impressed with my journey in life and do not wish to separate myself from it. But that is me...I cannot nor will I ever try and speak for others because it is far to individualized of an experience to even attempt it.

Now, as far as the OP’s original question, as it is currently worded…I do not wish to pass as a transguy or a biomale for that matter, I just want to be seen as a human being and be treated as such.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by G Snap!

I am curious to know why any transguy would want to be identified as a transguy and not just a guy. Just asking.

It means different things for different people - not all of us take the same path along this journey. That doesn't mean that any one of our stories are more real or more genuine than anothers. I started off, over 15 years ago when I transitioned, not wanting to be known as a transman. I never told anyone I wasn't intimate with. However, I realized that my past was a very special part of who I am, and that I had nothing to be scared of or ashamed of. As my self esteem evolved, I realized that being transgender - wherever you are on that spectrum (and we're all over the spectrum) is something to be proud of. I consider myself completely out now, and I am so proud of who I am. I speak at universities, youth groups, companies, etc. and I feel honored to tell my story and try to help educate society. And fast forward to now - and I don't really want to be seen as "just a guy" - not to the people who really know me anyway. I don't tell everyone I meet, "hey, I'm trans" but I don't hide it either.

And I may be derailing a little - but I just want to say that I see and hear about a lot of judging going on in the trans community - people being denigrated for not being on T, or choosing not to have surgery, or not being able to transition medically because of health reasons, etc etc. And I want to call this out as complete bullshit. There's no checklist, no rules, no preconceived model of what transgender is. None of us are any better, or any more trans than another, regardless.