A straight girl enters the queer world...

[DaddysKitten]

I have a dear friend of mine who has recently entered into a relationship with a trans-man. She's never had any sort of alternate relationship with anything other than bio-men, and is struggling, though she won't openly admit it.

I myself was straight when I met my trans-man, but I was raised by lesbians therefor always had a base understanding of the lifestyle, though by all means did this make me an expert or even experienced, but I'm finding giving her advice difficult, truly.

She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough. When I first met my Daddy, I was a sponge for information. For those few who remember me from the other B-F forums with him, I was constantly posting, asking questions, getting involved in discussions, and I learned so much, and it helped me to truly learn about him, his doubts, his worries, his concerns, and all of those things he faces every day, that I would have been oblivious to. And my ability to educate myself, created a portal into him, more thoroughly.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt. And I'm at a loss for advice to give her. So I have a few questions.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be. So we have a straight girl clueless of the trans mentality, with a trans-man who has a very hard time accepting that she doesn't know everything, that in fact, she is quite ignorant of it all. Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times.

Sadly, we are dealing with two people who lack a lot of self worth and self-esteem. But, I do believe there is a sense of real love between them, though Daddy seems to disagree, he knows the female party better than I do. But I want to be a good friend for her, and help her. I'm just finding myself at a loss.

I have tried the tough love, get it through your damn head, approach. And I have tried the kind loving approach, neither of which seem to make her see the big picture.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks BF!

[princessbelle]

My first thought when reading this is your friends need to grasp the fact that no matter who they date, they are still themselves.

For example...I am a gay femme woman, that is my ID. I am still that gay femme woman no matter if i date Butch, FTM, Trans, or Bio-Men for that matter. (not that i would date bio-men, but trying to prove my point here)

No matter who i date, that does not change who i am.

The second thing i want to mention is respect. This is how i see it anyway...

If i'm dating someone that goes by He or Hy or She, i call them their selected pronoun out of respect. It doesn't mean it changes who i am. It is all about them and what "they" prefer. If i date a FTM and he has transitioned to a man, i would still be a gay femme woman, and never would i think of myself as straight. Even if "he" sees it that way or the rest of the world did. I wouldn't care. I know who i am.

IMO you don't have to have a bookshelf full of knowledge to understand how someone IDs. If the person explains it to you fully and you take that, accept that and honor that with respect. It doesn't change who you are and how you ID. You can date three different Trans or Butch or any ID and get three different ways of seeing how they feel. There is no cut and dry answer to knowing IMO. All relationships are different and you just gotta really listen to your partner to know what they want, expect and need so that you can be the best partner you can be.

I have dated the gamut, and it's always a little adjustment with the way they ID but it is theirs and you just have to be flexible and respectful. What's more important, at least to me, is do "we" get along, are we compatible, do we have similar dreams, do i feel affection and is that affection given back. Ya know?

Another thought is invite her here. Show her some of the threads on Trans and maybe she can get a feel of how it flows.

Not sure this was your question really, but just wanted to share that.

Sounds like you are a really good friend and they are lucky to have you around.

[Soft*Silver]

I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by Miss_Tia

I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?

No, actually she is coming to me ALL the time with help in this relationship. This has nothing at all to do with control, it has to do with me reaching out for more information to be able to better help them in their relationship.

I would never ever complain about such a thing, and I will completely support her. But I am finding it a challenge, and as a good friend, who is trying to give her all she needs to help her with her questions, and her situations, that is why the post is here.

As a friend, you give advice, you lend your shoulder, and share your own ideals, and situations with them in order to help them when times are hard. This has little at all to do with control. Telling her my thoughts, and ideas, about what she comes to me with is not controlling, it's being honest and open and not sugarcoating everything, because in the end that would only be detrimental.

[DeviantDaddy]

My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by DeviantDaddy

My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.

Thank you, Daddy. Perhaps I'll just tell you what I want to say, and let you post it, your ability with words is superior to my own, of late for some reason. lol. Love you.

[T D]

Just a thought, but it seems to me that if someone "really" wants to know about something/someone they will put the effort into researching the subject thoroughly. I'm not saying your friend hasn't done some of this, but it does sound like a good deal more research could be done by her on the subject. It also sounds like the two of them need to communicate more, talk, listen, share, and yes, respect the wishes of one another.

On a side note, I know for myself that I encompass all sorts of characteristics. Some people may see me as a gay male, others a straight male, and even others not sure what to think. I cook, I decorate, I love flowers, I don't drink beer, I despise performing mechanical (auto care) related activities, I like nice things in my home, etc. Sometimes I may seem callous or indifferent, while at other times I'm the most caring and generous of friends. We're all made up of so many different characteristics that I think it's unfair and difficult to "pigeon hole" anyone as being this or that type of person. We are simply who we are, with everything that makes us be that person. Whatever/whoever someone else is simply needs to be respected as a part of their being.

Just my observation from what I've read so far.

Best of luck to your friends!

[Corkey]

Seems to me if someone wanted to learn they would put in the effort. There are plenty of resources available, there are even support groups like SOFFA that help S/O's of Transfolks get their bearings.
The pronoun thing she'll either get it or she wont, there really isn't an in between. It may even take her some time to change the tape in her mind, but it can be done.
There are threads on this site that Transfolks post in that could be of some help to her. So I guess it's up to her to put in the effort.
Welcome you two to the Planet.

[aishah]

welcome to the planet!

for me, as a partner of a transman, i have a hard time understanding the pronoun issue. my partner said he preferred masculine pronouns. end of story. i slipped up a few times on accident when we first started dating but...part of being committed to someone is making a concerted effort to use their pronouns. if it were me i would feel really disrespected and unsafe, so i try not to make my partner feel that way.

i've found it super helpful to reach out to my trans* & genderqueer friends, read books, read blogs and zines, etc.

i think if this person's partner is confused about their identity that is probably not helping and might exacerbate the situation, but still - listening and talking honestly, listening to what the person wants and doesn't want (i.e. in terms of touch, pronouns, etc.) and respecting that is hugely important. everyone doesn't have to have their id figured out to be able to communicate and respect those wishes and boundaries.

i love what princess belle says about how a partner's id is a separate issue and it doesn't change (or have to change) how we id.

[LaneyDoll]

Ok, there are a few things here that concern me so I am going to address them one at a time.
I am in purple as usual...

Originally Posted by DaddysKitten

She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough.

Is love really enough? Is it possible to have love without basic understanding? The first time I dated a stone butch, I read and read and read so that I might better understand where she was coming from. Did it help? Who knows? Things did not progress b/c we were too different to date BUT we are still good friends, over a year later. And when she needs advice or wants a jolt of reality, she calls me.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt.

Here again. Is this "love" enough? Does she really love him or is she in love with the way he treats her when things are good because then we come into my third concern...

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

It sounds to me like he is still struggling with who he is. If he has not accepted his self, then how can she?

Just my thoughts at first glance, they may change later after I have had time to think about this some more.

[aishah]

i love what laney said.

i wanted to echo that response to the "love" issue - to me, love, at least in a relationship, requires some sort of commitment. it's not enough to get caught up in the honeymoon feelings. if you are in a relationship with someone loving them means being committed at least to being empathetic and compassionate towards them, and to not making them feel disrespected and unsafe (or at least putting in the effort). so - being caught up in the warm fuzzy feelings is awesome, but it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by aishah

it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.

I agree! And it seems to be coming from BOTH sides. But I do not think it is based in a mean way, I think it is because he does not yet know himself and she does not know how to make his journey easier because of this.

[Toughy]

Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

You seem to be putting more effort in her relationship than she is. I'm thinking it should be the other way around as others have said. To me, it speaks volumes about her real interest in her partner/boyfriend. A pro-active role in understanding the many facets of a person is required.

I also think that at times folks have a tendency to pigeon-hole someone. He is much more than a transman. For a relationship to work folks need to focus on the individual rather than the label/id. Seeking general information about trans folks is also a good thing.

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

IMO you don't have to have a bookshelf full of knowledge to understand how someone IDs. If the person explains it to you fully and you take that, accept that and honor that with respect. It doesn't change who you are and how you ID.

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

[Soft*Silver]

If I had someone who was calling me and crying to me hours at night, I would wonder why they are needing me so much and if I am the one to answer their needs at all. And I would then examine why I am buying into this neediness. What purpose is it serving me??

Frankly, by the way its being described, I think its all overboard, both in the primary relationship, and in the way its being handled outside of the relationship

I have friends...with whom I have deeply rich, long term, even profound friendships. When my friends go thru bad times, I am there for them but not when I shouldnt be. Sometimes being a sounding board or a shoulder to cry on is actually detrimental. To both the crier and to the "shoulder". Sometimes what they need isnt me...

to personalize it....If my sub had so much of a problem with me and was sobbing about how bad the relationship is over and over again, to someone else, 1) I would want to know why he was still in a relationship with me, since no one makes you a victim unless you put yourself in those positions (I am not talking about abuse here. Abuse is a different matter and thats all about hostage taking)

2) If my sub had no clue about our relationship dynamics and my "label" as a Being, why isnt he investigating, researching, getting involved, etc. so that he can know what loving and respecting me entails..not to mention doing so for himself!

3) If he "loves" me but doesnt know me, then I am gonna really suspect that there isnt love there but neediness. This is a pet peeve of mine..people who proclaim love LONG before it is a true factor. When people do this, it means there is a hole inside them that they want someone else to fill. This, is the ugly D word. Dependency. If I let our relationship continue when there isnt real love established, its not just his fault, its mine too, and so then its on both of our parts and thats called CO-dependency.

one more thing

Imma gonna end by saying this: those who try to fix other people's relationships, don't. In fact, often they either make it last longer than it should, or sometimes they make it break up sooner than it should, if at all! I am not suggesting we shouldnt be there for friends who need us...but needing us as friends and being needy as a friend, are two separate things...one is about love, the other about dependency.

[TickledPink]

When it comes down to it, the TWO of them will have to figure it out. There is no book, friend, forum, etc that can do that for either of them.

Perhaps the journey will be a great growing experience for each!

Well-wishes!

[aishah]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

.....

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship

Hi Toughy,
When we speak to her in regards to the matters she brings us, it is rarely ever in a manner of... 'I think you should do this' and so forth. The only exception to that has been our suggestion to join discussion boards (such as this one) and read up on a lot of the information that is available to the public. And as far as the person she is seeing, I have considered the very same thing. In speaking to him there are plenty of red flags that I have picked up on but am not getting in the middle of. Everything we speak of we simply answer questions she directly asks us and other times we're just there to listen.

I am certain that the very reason she turns to us is given the slight similarities in our circumstances. My kitten was very much a heterosexual woman who only dated cis-gender males until she met me. So she feel s as though we would be the best people to turn to in regards to her questions and such.

[Quintease]

The first time I dated someone trans, I had a real problem acknowledging 'she' was a 'he'. I was a lesbian goddamnit! And lesbians didn't date men.
But I couldn't help myself, he was so amazing that I couldn't stay away.
It didn't help that at the time he was going through a period of discovery himself, so didn't have the confidence to fully come out.

I barely knew anything about trans, so it was invaluable to me that he took the time to talk everything through with me, to answer all of my questions, lend me books and even show me a video. It was an eye-opener which would never have happened had he been the sort to take my ignorance personally.

The second time I dated someone trans I thought I was down with the kids, I thought I knew. Of course I realised how ridiculous that was about a week later, particularly when I remembered that I was a lesbian.
Luckily my husband was happy to talk to me about anything and everything and even argue with me on occasion when our cultures clashed.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

It's not important. What's important is she care about her partner and try to meet his needs and he do the same. In time she'll either learn on the job or he will terminate the relationship.

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She's probably trying to square up the two realities. If she's had a straight life up till now, none of this will fit the world she's been living in for most of her life. In time everything will start to make sense or else he'll get fed up with her and leave.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The two of you have different partners, different relationships. Understanding your relationship isn't necessarily going to help her with her own.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

If he is not able to be a patience and tolerant educator, than she is not going to learn. Simples. He either needs to grow up or give up. Her 'manipulation' is probably the only way she knows how to defuse the situation. He feels bad, she gets a break.

[DeviantDaddy]

Well said, Quin.