A straight girl enters the queer world...

[DaddysKitten]

Thank you everyone for your comments and input. In a brief discussion forum such as this, many details are being left out. She leans on me, perhaps too much, as it has been stated, because she finds me someone who can relate to the questions she has.

I don't feel you need to become an 'expert' on something like this, to be with someone. But when it is a completely new experience, I believe anyone who was not born with the inclinations, finding themselves in 'new' territory, researching, to understand is very very important. I know, that partly it was my need to understand the obstacles, my partner faced on a daily, basis, that he couldn't just come out and explain perfectly, brought us closer, it solidified out understanding of each other.

Most are right, the ID of someone, should not be so focused on in a relationship. But you have to remember that we are discussing someone who has entered completely new territory. And having been the straight girl, who fell madly in love with a trans-man, without it having been something I was born with the inclination to, to more fully understand it naturally, I found my own self identification important.

We aren't talking about just a label, or the [B]definition[B] of what someone is. We're discussing daily trials and tribulations, they go through. Such as, with Daddy, he has the looks to contend with. Not something he would have really just brought to me, but it was something that educating myself, I was able to understand, to better support him during these struggles. Intimately, it allowed me to be curious, and ask him detailed questions about what he was comfortable with, and what he wasn't comfortable with.

All in all, it became something that led him to really trust me, lose the fear of 'what if the straight girl doesn't want me' and replaced it with awe and appreciation because it showed him how important even the little details of his life, were to me.

There is never a cut and dry answer or reply to anything, in a relationship. Be it straight vanilla or kinky trans/bi/gay. But when so many transmen and transwomen deal with so much, that isn't easy to just make common conversation of it, this can be integral in much of the understanding we need to have to be complete partners.

As for helping, hindering, or postponing the inevitable in their relationship, I just want to say that my reasons for even beginning this thread, was to find people who may have experienced something, that I intended on bringing her to this thread to read, and learn from herself. Just as we all learn things from such writings, or even ramblings. I don't have the advice, or the help I wish I could offer her. That is why I am here. Though she is reaching out, and I remember reaching out as well. So to anyone who may agree or disagree, that is all this is about. Understanding, or hearing of anothers' experiences, is not advising someone on how to run their relationship, it is expressing an understanding, and hope that they will find something positive, to take out of it, that will help them.

Once again, thank you everyone for the replies.

[Corkey]

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=976

Here is the link to the SOFFA thread I was talking about, she may find some help with her issues around what she is feeling there.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by aishah

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

Agreed.

I read/research because I will *never* understand what it is like to be butch, stone butch, trans etc. I am a femme who looks like a straight, vanilla world soccer mom. As such, reading about another's life, journey etc allows me to step into their world-over and over for as many times and worlds as I can find. I love to get into someone's mind and find out how they think. For a variety of reasons, you cannot always ask as many questions as I have.

If reading/research is how someone learns, then that may be exactly what they need to do.

Additionally, reading allows you to reflect and absorb at your own pace, it gives you new questions to learn answers to and you do not have to concern yourself with how a book is going to react to your desire to learn more.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

Yes. This. Nail-->Head.

[DeviantDaddy]

I think that it is actually highly beneficial to "research" things about your partner and aspects that are critical in their lives. I know some people have mentioned that it isn't important to research their partner and such but I respectfully disagree with that notion. Specially when it comes to entering unknown terrain... smiles.

[BullDog]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

[Corkey]

I think dating and intimate relationships are two different things. What I would be willing to do for one I'm intimate with and one I'm dating are also two different things. The level of personal commitment is at issue. Now if I were to date again, and I'm not cause I'm married and happily so, I would be sure to know what the intended glimmer of my eye identified as, how that effected me and if we were compatible. Sometimes the heart wants what it wants, and we just have to learn how to live with a person we never would have given a second glance to.
I do however think that just flying by the seat of the pants is a risky and potentially hazardous way to live.
Then again I'm old enough to be secure and fairly immovable in my own way of being.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I understand what you mean, in truth when I met kitten I was a bit lost on the subject and unable to find discussions on it. I actually had very long discussions with her when we first met. A learning experience for us both which was quite wonderful.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

Yes, and the point? If none of the Lesbians or Queer Femmes were attracted to FTM's, and visa versa then what would we have? Butches date Femmes, Ftm's date Femmes, Femmes date whom ever they wish. I would hazard a guess that FTM's date a whole gambit of the sexual spectrum, and so do Femmes.
We all have to get to know each other, and I guess I'm wondering why you said you rarely hear of Transmen having conversations about Femmes? Maybe you just aren't listening? Or it doesn't concern you? Or you just want to point out something that is eluding me.

[BullDog]

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

[Chancie]

I don't get it. Why shouldn't a friend ask another friend for advice? I do that all the time. When Pete and I got together, I was way out of practice of being in a serious relationship, and I had plenty of concerns. I'm pretty comfortable with my communication skills, but there are times I want to think something thorough before I talk to Pete.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

I see Femmes posting in FTM threads, and the Transmen responding to them, so while you may not see it I have to question the motive for your statement. Are you talking accommodations for who a person is or accommodations in the way a person touches another? I mean what is it you see that I don't?
I put a lot of effort into understanding another person, I don't attach a label to them.
I do see in those threads there is a marked aggressiveness in whom pursues whom, and therefore where the discussions get their direction. But it has nothing to do with FTM's not trying to get to know Femmes. I do think that FTM's get noticed more so because of the nonconformity, other than that, yea not so much. Humans behaving like humans.

[BullDog]

Corkey I am lost at this point as to what you are saying. I think we should leave it at our perceptions are very different.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Corkey I am lost at this point as to what you are saying. I think we should leave it at our perceptions are very different.

Oh I know they are different, which is why I was asking you some questions, which you are under no obligation to answer. You pointed out, without too much fact that Femmes are always the ones who have to get to know FTM's. I am challenging that statement.
I think all parties who want to understand one another are under obligation to do so with respect.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Oh I know they are different, which is why I was asking you some questions, which you are under no obligation to answer. You pointed out, without too much fact that Femmes are always the ones who have to get to know FTM's. I am challenging that statement.
I think all parties who want to understand one another are under obligation to do so with respect.

Corkey, I have clearly differentiated private conversations between two individuals and discussions I have observed online. I agree with you that anyone wanting to get to know someone should do so with respect irregardless of how someone ids.

I do think websites such as this do offer a lot of information for all of us, including people new to our community and someone wanting to learn about trans, butch and femme issues could find a lot of great information and people here, so it's a great resource to point people to.

My only motivation was I don't think femmes should have to do a majority of the research and accommodating, whether their partners be trans, butch or anything else. There seems to be a big discrepancy that I have observed over a long time being on these sites. This is my perception. I am not challenging your perception.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Corkey, I have clearly differentiated private conversations between two individuals and discussions I have observed online. I agree with you that anyone wanting to get to know someone should do so with respect irregardless of how someone ids.

I do think websites such as this do offer a lot of information for all of us, including people new to our community and someone wanting to learn about trans, butch and femme issues could find a lot of great information and people here, so it's a great resource to point people to.

My only motivation was I don't think femmes should have to do a majority of the research and accommodating, whether their partners be trans, butch or anything else. There seems to be a big discrepancy that I have observed over a long time being on these sites. This is my perception. I am not challenging your perception.

Thank you for answering. Having been on sites like this for a while, I too think they are a great resource, without the perception of whom does what. Because what I perceive has nothing to do with the reality of how people get to know each other. When you say Femmes have to do the majority of research and accommodating I find that to be erroneous. I think, and have observed that all ID's have a learning curve, and all ID's accommodate.

[betenoire]

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

[The_Lady_Snow]

kitten,

I hope that you are kind and patient with your straight friend who just found herself on a roller coaster ride of the gender spectrum/queer/non binary/who am I now path...

She's a woman who before probably had no clue what *trans* was, queer, transitioning, and all the other things that one stumbles onto when they begin to date someone outside of the heteronormative..

Some good reading material:

Gender Outlaw : Kate Bornstein

Transgender Emergence : Arlene Istar

Transgender Warriors: Leslie Feinberg

I also hope that during this difficult time the gentleman who is dating your friend does some self reflection and realizes that it's not just about him him and only him.

It's now them...

He too should be patient and be able to communicate what is going on, what to expect, what changes will happen etc etc.

If he's not ready to do so, perhaps they should not be in a relationship till they both figure out who they are and who they aren't..

I would give her the names of the dash site, and now this site so that she can read and soak up all those gender conversations that have been had and continue to happen to this day.

She may not fully understand the mentality of a transgender mind, that is something we may never be privy to, but we can be patient and understanding as long as the same is being returned.

It reads selfish on his part that he expect her to do all her homework on him, his gender confusion, his journey. Relationships are a two way highway and he has to be just as invested into her new journey into something she has probably no clue about... It was also disturbing to read that manipulation was going on.

I wish them both luck, perhaps they can go and get some therapy with a gender therapist who could be the mediator for questions she has and her asking them without her boyfriend getting all offensive.

She can't learn about him and what he's going through if he's going to deflect all the issues within him onto her because of her curiousity..

I wish both of them luck and you too sounds like you are trying to be a good friend to her..