A straight girl enters the queer world...

[Soft*Silver]

when I met my sub, he introduced me to a whole area of gay male sexuality that I had never even heard of. I introduced him to a whole culture of trans that he was unaware of. We both did ALOT of research as we got to know one another.

Learning about Oz when you are from Kansas, helps you date the lion instead of the farm hand you are use to...

[Parker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

You're not alone - I see this apparent lopsidedness as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.

[weatherboi]

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!

[BullDog]

None of my posts have anything to do with butches vs transmen.
Have a good convo.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by DeviantDaddy

Hi Toughy,
When we speak to her in regards to the matters she brings us, it is rarely ever in a manner of... 'I think you should do this' and so forth. The only exception to that has been our suggestion to join discussion boards (such as this one) and read up on a lot of the information that is available to the public. And as far as the person she is seeing, I have considered the very same thing. In speaking to him there are plenty of red flags that I have picked up on but am not getting in the middle of. Everything we speak of we simply answer questions she directly asks us and other times we're just there to listen.

I am certain that the very reason she turns to us is given the slight similarities in our circumstances. My kitten was very much a heterosexual woman who only dated cis-gender males until she met me. So she feel s as though we would be the best people to turn to in regards to her questions and such.

I hope you did not take my comments to mean something negative towards You or Your kitten. I was addressing what was said and none of it was personal......

I certainly agree there are red flags on both their parts.....and I am damn sure glad I am not either one of them <grin>

[stepfordfemme]

I really want to answer this post as its been one of few that has struck a cord with me. My own opinion follows and I hope this discussion continues.

To answer the question:
1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

In my experience in dating and getting to know transmen, I would say that this is dependent on where the guy is in his transition. If they are taking their relationship through the whole process, then it would be of benefit to brush up on information. It just makes it easier.

From my transguy-loving femme perspective, I don't think your friend is any less straight, nor should is it her duty to be informed--as long as she understands she is dating a man. He views himself as such from what I gather. And he understands he is dating a straight girl. There will be bumps and hiccups and messiness. But I agree with some of the postings, why do we all need to know everything if our intentions and hearts are in the right place? I don't believe one can never understand another's experience, just try to hear and listen to as much as possible. Communication is key in these relationships.

I'm a believer that our gender identity can be fluid (yes I'm going there). I define as queer, but I view my relationships with transmen as completely heterosexual. When I'm blessed to have a transman in my life, I'm a happy straight girl. When I'm dating a fine butch, I'm a happy queer girl. But there are women like myself, who don't exactly fit a label either---just like many others in the community!

Maybe your friend is just trying to be with a person she cares about rather than get caught up in gender mentality. Is that complicated? Absolutely. I applaud you for being there for them. Just take care of yourselves as well.

I've read some posts that say identity is fixed, but I believe that is a choice some people choose to make. IMO Labels just allow us to communicate preferences and there are some people that don't have a lot of attachments to the words and analysis.

Thanks for reading and posting on this thread. Interesting!

[Gemme]

My gut reaction, from the little bit that has been discussed here, is to take a biiiig step back.

Drawing from my personal experience, it sounds as if your friend...who very well may be the sweetest woman on Earth...is an energy vampire. If she's boohooing on your shoulders at all hours and 'woe is me'ing without taking some personal responsibility for her own relationship, then I feel badly for all parties involved.

It's not going to end well.

Both of them need to educate themselves and to take the time and make the effort to educate one another about what they've learned, not only about the dynamics of their relationship but of their own personal goals/thoughts/dreams/wishes/etc for themselves as individuals and as partners in a working relationship.

The thing with the pronouns. Oh, my. That rubs my nerves RAW. When folks would call Ebon her or she, I swear, I wore my teeth down even further than my nightly grinding does. It's not only blatantly disrepectful and ignorant but it's confusing to those who are watching her to see how to approach him in their relationship.

And if he doesn't know where he's coming from or at least in what direction he wants to go, then he's dragging her along blindly and it may be in a direction that is not good for either of them.

Love schmove. She's getting her toes curled and is feeling the newlywed buzz from it. If she truly loved him, she'd make the effort to address him as he prefers and to support him. If he was truly in love with her, then he'd make clear boundaries and enforce them with her and others.

This is their relationship and their lives. They need to start living them on their own. I'd steer them both in the direction of good, solid research material and maybe shoot them a couple emails with therapists (Trans, couples, etc) and then take a biiig step back and lay my own boundaries down with them. I like you and I hope this works out, but I will not let you drain me. Live your own life and make your own decisions and, for the love of Pete (not Chancie's Pete), grow the Hell up. Both of them.

Arwen said that the Mercury Retrograde would make it more difficult to maintain my filters.

She might be right.

[EnderD_503]

A few people have brought up "research." I tend to agree with that perspective, only because, at least from the way I learn, reading about something as a whole tends to clarify it and give it context. That doesn't mean that you can read about one trans experience and see it as an all encompassing trans experience...you certainly can't, but it can give you greater context.

I notice that some people coming from a more strictly ingrained straight and cis background really have trouble. All their lives they think in binaries; female and male, gay and straight, masculine and feminine etc. Then suddenly they somehow come into contact with someone who is trans or someone who is queer. Maybe they fall in love or maybe they're just friends. Then it seems like everything they were ever taught about sex, gender and sexuality is being upended. It would make sense (though it still certainly sucks) that such a person would have issues with pronouns, if they still have an understanding of sex as a part of a binary, or if they still believe that a sex assigned at birth = "real sex"; certain genitals = certain sexes and all the usual incorrect assumptions.

That's why I think that maybe reading a book or two on transguys/trans identities might be useful to put things into context for her, and bring her understanding of sex/gender outside the typical binary. At least coming from the perspective of someone who learns better with a combination of lived community experience and reading about others' identities and experiences. Personally I try to do the same with femmes as well as other queer women and/or lesbian-identified women. Hell, I enjoy doing so for any identity within the queer community because its my community. These people are important to me community-wise, so I want to get as much as I can about varying experiences, and if hearing about one experience doesn't allow it to sink in for me, then sometimes hearing about various experiences in a written context helps bring a perspective more into focus.

So maybe that could actually help your friend as well.

Also, a bit off-topic, but it's been briefly discussed in this thread the experiences of queer and/or lesbian women in relationships with transguys and the struggles they might go through. That's something that interests me, because often (at least, I've found) the struggle is maintaining a queer and/or lesbian identity while dating a transguy. The assumption is, then, that the transguy may very well identify as straight and what, then, of the queer and/or lesbian identity of a partner and her identity? I feel like for me, personally, that is a struggle I share to some extent even as a transguy/male-identified butch. How do you remain a transguy who identifies as queer who is into queer women, who doesn't identify as bi or pan, and still remain visibly queer and trans? Especially in a psychiatric-influenced trans community that still thinks that being a transguy who is into women while identifying as queer somehow is a denial of maleness or an admittance of femaleness. Maintaining visibility (and in the context of relationships) is definitely something that has concerned me and other transguys I know. I think that some transguys and their partners who are queer women and/or lesbian women may share more in some of these struggles than is often talked about...maybe people should just talk more. I dunno.

[stepfordfemme]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Also, a bit off-topic, but it's been briefly discussed in this thread the experiences of queer and/or lesbian women in relationships with transguys and the struggles they might go through. That's something that interests me, because often (at least, I've found) the struggle is maintaining a queer and/or lesbian identity while dating a transguy. The assumption is, then, that the transguy may very well identify as straight and what, then, of the queer and/or lesbian identity of a partner and her identity? I feel like for me, personally, that is a struggle I share to some extent even as a transguy/male-identified butch. How do you remain a transguy who identifies as queer who is into queer women, who doesn't identify as bi or pan, and still remain visibly queer and trans? Especially in a psychiatric-influenced trans community that still thinks that being a transguy who is into women while identifying as queer somehow is a denial of maleness or an admittance of femaleness. Maintaining visibility (and in the context of relationships) is definitely something that has concerned me and other transguys I know. I think that some transguys and their partners who are queer women and/or lesbian women may share more in some of these struggles than is often talked about...maybe people should just talk more. I dunno.

I'm curious as to why visibility is a concern?
Would love to hear more on this.

From my POV, there is no shame in stealth. If I look like part of any other hetero couple, why would I feel the need to be any other way? Why is there a need to "fly our stripes" so to speak? If a person so chooses to represent their community its their choice. But with so much fragmentation, not everyone feels that the queer community represents them.

I remember once asking my ex-partner, well didnt you do this while you were coming out and he said to me "I never came out like you, I just became who I am now". So I guess my question is.....what if you're not attached to an identity?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!

I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[aishah]

i feel that the conversation on visibility is a bit off topic but relevant, and i can see both sides of it. for me, it isn't a huge deal, because i've always felt a lack of visibility regardless of who i've dated - so my feelings on invisibility are detached from my partner's id. i have a lot of complicated and difficult and upsetting emotions about invisibility. i hate being invisible. but i don't need or expect my relationship to make me visible (no queer relationship i've ever had has really made me more visible). i also don't think that stealth personally or in a relationship is a bad thing. i understand for some people their relationship is very much tied to their visibility. so i can see how those feelings might come up for them in their relationship.

for me i always id as a queer femme regardless of the gender and sexual orientation of the person i'm dating. my partner has talked about his feelings around struggling with wanting to be stealth and id as heterosexual but at the same time feeling more a sense of home in the queer community and in some ways id'ing as queer, though he is only attracted to femme women.

[Quintease]

I hate being invisible in the gay scene. I fought hard to be recognised as a lesbian, especially in my early years when lesbians would look at my long hair in distrust. Part of loving my husband was letting go of my need to be 'visible' and that hurt. Luckily he's still happy to be queer in queer spaces.

I don't have the same concerns with straight people or my family, they can think what they like. My husband is a man and my lesbian life is irrelevant when I'm with him, he's my heterosexual future.

[weatherboi]

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[BullDog]

No I haven't made sweeping statements or generalizations. My statements are based on what I have and haven't read on bf forums for over 10 years. I have seen lots and lots of conversations by femmes trying to understand transmen and their struggles. I have seen very little about transmen educating themselves about lesbians/queer femmes, talking about needing to join support groups, how their id changes based on who they date etc.

There was an transman who just yesterday said he tried to find such conversation when he was dealing with some issues and couldn't find any.

If I have somehow missed all of these types of fascinating conversations over the years feel free to provide links so I can read them.

I also stated at least 2 or 3 times that private conversations between couples could be different.

None of my posts had anything to do with butch vs transmen. None whatsoever. Some issues will be the same, some will be different in terms of dating a transman or dating a butch.

I am out. I have real life in the real world to enjoy.

[Okiebug61]

What was the initial attraction?

[Martina]

If i were a straight girl involved with a transman, i might not want to do much research. But i would expect to want to know everything that is important about the individual man i was with. i don't think one needs to get a degree in gender studies to date a transperson. But if she is so anxious that she is needing to talk about it all the time, then some research would probably help.

i have in the past been stunned at the extent that some woman who ID as SOFFA have taken that identity. If someone told me that i had to adopt that ID in order to date a transman, i would be outta there fast.

That one's ID is as a significant OTHER, that that is cultivated and studied and developed as an identity beyond a description of one's life or sexual orientation has always been something i KNEW i could never do.

(This may no longer be the case, but back in the day, there were professional SOFFA's out there. They knew more about transitioning than they guys did, were activists, wrote newsletters, got gender studies degrees, etc.) All fine. Their choice, but they stood up in groups as the model or ideal of SOFFA'ness. i have attended meetings and events with such examplars, and at that time, i was sometimes dating transmen. It was just so not me -- that version of SOFFA. i could not even grasp it. And i really wondered what young women new to these groups were thinking they had to do and be in order to stay with their partner.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.

Just because this particular individual is an ass clown it doesn't mean transmen here are too, each label has its ass hatery?

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

Yes this...and I think it was Bete who said it up there somewhere as well.

For me, how I ID has to do with who I am...not who I date or sleep with or am partnered with.

I have lots of other opinions about other things touched on in this conversation....but I think that is a key point.

As far as the rest goes....it appears (from what little information we have) that the "straight girl" in question is possibly wearing a "Drama" nametag. Personally, I'd offer some resources and back away slowly. My only experience with someone who called me at all hours of the night in turmoil and angst turned out to be the biggest liar I've ever met, and an absolute black hole of energy and emotion.

I totally get a friend asking a friend for advice and feedback...especially if they see a common thread in that friend's situation or life. But that's different from extensive, dramatic, all-hours phone calls.

As far as the measure of whether femmes are working harder to understand trans partners or vice versa....I have no clue. I think different people learn in different ways...and just because it isn't posted on the internet doesn't mean the learning isn't happening or the effort to understand isn't being made.