A straight girl enters the queer world...

[weatherboi]

I have been involved in discussions on this website in particular and have read conversations on the dash site that involved transmen and their responsibilities to themselves, their partners and their communities. It usually ends up in a conversation about our privilege and our responsibility to do more. I have always been ok with examining and owning up to it. Some of us do and some of us don't. This is true for all identities in my experience online. The OP's friend doesn't id as queer and doesnt even involve a transguy from our community so why even bring our(transguys on these forums) shortcomings or not, into it? Why is it that somebody elses struggle becomes an ok time for a member to shine a spot light on that? My proof is me, i am a feminist queer transguy that works hard on his shit. i can't speak for other ftm/transguys but my experience with my peers is some work harder than me. Lack of thread content doesn't equate transguys doing less work than femmes/people that partner up with transfolk, or there is less of an expectation on us, it just means we may process it differently or not.

Just to clarify, for me, because i have dealt with this same issue before, the sweeping generalization lies in the insinuation that lack of thread content somehow equates a lack of responsibility or accountability by transfolk/ftms/transguys on this forum or forums of past.

[BullDog]

Sweeping generalizations? How about phrases like demonizing transguys and butch vs trans? If two femmes happen to observe the same thing is it all of a sudden a femme conspiracy? Femmes against the world? Those are sweeping generalizations and very loaded and divisive language. In my book friends don't treat other friends like that no matter how much they disagree. I hope the matter can be cleared up because I do very much like you and have great respect for you and certainly do consider you a feminist.

I find the conclusions people are making about what gets discussed and what doesn't to be interesting to say the least. I am not going to comment on it any further.

[DeviantDaddy]

Seems the thread has bit busy in my absence. Amazing how discussions can open the door to numerous opinions which in turn lead to more discussions. Thank you all for partaking in this and not only adding your views but also bringing up questions.

As for the butch vs. trans topic - it is disappointing to see that something like this is coming up. It is not our intention to have such topics come up where it seems as though we are trying to box people into groups of hy, he, she, etc. The notion of sweeping generalizations regarding dating, gender and orientation is simply, weak. Every person is different, every dynamic is different and rarely will you find that one couple's journey mirrors another's. There may be similarities but it is not the same for everyone.

When I got involved with kitten, I felt responsible for explaining to her the things that set me apart from cis-men. Because it was important to me that she understood that but she took it upon herself to go a step further, and research the b-f and trans community because she knew that it was something that I am part of. It is simply the way we as individuals feel when going into a relationship. If I were to get involved with someone who had a medical condition - I would research it to better understand it. Many times I have also researched communities, dynamics and interests that someone I was interested in was involved in.

As for the OP - this thread was called a straight girl entering the queer world. Because in her decision to get involved with this man - she has entered into a new terrain. Whether he identifies as heterosexual or queer. She has been questioning her orientation. I recall her coming to me when her interest was sparked and blatantly asking me - "I'm into him, very into him, does this make me a lesbian?"

Obviously it is a question I was not able to answer for her. Such a question is opening a can of worms. But before anyone assumes that labels are something we are trying to pigeon-hole them into, understand that this isn't our intention at all. This is simply a friend who has known nothing but the heterosexual lifestyle, privileges, customs and so forth. So this has taken her for a total head spin.

As for her partner. In my honest opinion, I think he is not stepping up as he should be. But then again, that is due to my own beliefs and sense of responsibility. Everyone is different. But to address some remarks that have been made - no, he doesn't seem to be actively involved in helping, teaching or guiding.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Your statement was shaming, good thing I have thick skin. BullDog and I may not always agree, but at least I ask for clarification from her. I don't let folks silence me either, and I'm rather blunt about it.

BullDog, you did make a blanket statement and you clarified your position. That works for me. I'm still gonna call you on blanket statements but that's how I work. I expect you to do the same for me.

As for me and mine, we talk about lots of things, most things have nothing to do with our identification. As a married couple we accommodate each other we get along just fine. *You* all probably never come into the conversations we have, but yep we have them. And if you are a friend of mine you would know how much I fight against the patriarchy.

Back to the subject. No the woman's id doesn't change when she becomes involved with any of the lgbt community. She is still a straight female. I do think those two need to have this discussion amongst themselves, as neither of them are here and we know next to nothing about them.My .02

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

She can't learn about him and what he's going through if he's going to deflect all the issues within him onto her because of her curiousity..

I wish both of them luck and you too sounds like you are trying to be a good friend to her..

Thank you very much, Snow.

Originally Posted by stepfordfemmeyyc

From my transguy-loving femme perspective, I don't think your friend is any less straight, nor should is it her duty to be informed--as long as she understands she is dating a man.

I would just like to clarify something, that has completely gotten out of context in this forum. I have never said anything about her identity. The title of this thread simply stated she was stepping out of the norm 'straight' relationship. She is still a straight girl as far as I am concerned, because title isn't important to me. I'm a straight woman, in love with a man. Genders, sexes, this and that means nothing to me. I am not discussing titles, because titles are way too vague in such a broad spectrum of alternatives. I also identify as a queer femme depending on the discussion, and how it is going. When I discuss my man, I'm a straight girl. When it is brought up, and people ask me how I can be 'straight' given the circumstances, I tell them that according to the straight populace, I would be a queer femme. But in our relationship, since he is a MAN to me, and I am his partner/woman/kitten, that I'm just a straight girl.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

You and me both. I simply stated her issues with the full acceptance of all of this. ID really never came into it until someone else brought it up, unless, as stated above, they assume I was discussing title/ID, versus experience. But then again, other things have more easily been misconstrued. Perhaps I should go with solid statement, and not poetic and unique. 'Straight girl dates transman for first time'. I just like poetry better? *shrugs*


Anyhow, a lot of this has been blown out of proportion, perhaps some were silently offended, and for that I will apologize. But I remember my questions, curiosities, and lack of understanding, very clearly, and it was unnerving. I wanted to know about him, his struggles, the little things about his every day life, especially with him being pre-op and considered in the in-between category of man and woman.

There are a lot of concerns in a relationship of two very different understandings, and I feel, that being ignorant to those things, is lacking the eagerness or desire to truly know EVERY thing about your partner. How can you truly love someone without understanding the tiniest details of what makes them, who they are?

My questions, originally four pages ago, were based on the seeking of information to help her in her journey of learning. For the fact I did not want to be the be all, end all, to her understanding. I was reaching out to understanding, at least for the most part, individuals who might be able to offer some wisdom. For those of you who did offer such, you have my sincere appreciation.

[Quintease]

It's a funny thing, the transperson and the ID of others.

I read an article recently about a happily married woman who transitioned believing her husband would leave. He didn't. At the time the article was written he didn't believe he was gay, nor did his former wife believe he was gay, despite them being two men in love.

I'm not not bisexual nor straight and I'm not the only lesbian I know who has kept her lesbian ID despite being happily partnered with a man.

As far as I know straight men tend not to question their ID when getting involved with a transwomen, pre or post op. If she says she's a woman and he's a man, then they are straight. The end.

Which is interesting as gay men will also date transwomen without changing their ID, as will gay men date pre-transition transmen.

In short it seems that sexual ID appears to be irrelevant when it comes to dating someone trans.

[Julie]

I am going to interject my personal thoughts on this.

Many years ago, I dated a stone butch. I needed to really understand what that meant. What did stone mean? She and I discussed it at great length and I discussed it with Femme's. This was my issue not hers. I needed to be sure I could handle not touching my partner - I needed to be sure I would not try and impose my feelings on her. She was stone, there was nothing for her to change about herself. There was much for me to change about myself, if I wanted to be in this relationship. It meant, I would need to learn what to do with my hands. It meant, I would not longer be exploring a female's body like I had in the past. Not once did I feel less than because of this. If I was to get into this relationship, I better know what I am getting into. We wound up being together for many years. I understood everything about her by communicating with her.

When I got involved with Dreamer, this was a completely different dynamic. Dreamer was a dominant and a sadist. What did all that mean? I read every single thing I could get my hands on. Everything. I talked to people, including Dreamer. I needed to be sure I could handle this relationship, before I entered it. It also meant Dreamer had to accept the parts of me that might not be comfortable going to certain places/spaces. It's just about communicating what is okay and what is not.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a Femme doing the research or a Straight Woman. MY GOD... If you are going to get involved with someone who you have never experienced (dynamics - trans, etc.) you better know who you are getting involved with and the dynamics associated with that person. A trans man who decides to get involved with a straight woman has the responsibility to be open in his dialogue and to welcome her questions. I have had friends who were with butches who later transitioned. The Femme's are the ones who searched out information, as much as they could - from their perspective. I hope that makes sense. A trans man cannot possibly know what it will be like for his partner. He cannot. She needs to communicate with him and ask questions to those in her community and read read read. So yes, I say - It is her responsibility since this area is so unknown to her, to get as much information as she can. It is her partners responsibility to never shame her with some of the questions she has.

Bottom line - It is about communication. I have never experienced a trans man placing this responsibility on his partner or vice versa. I have only experienced the balance. That is not to say, there are trans men who make it all about them. But there are many people in our world, who make it all about them.

Julie

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am going to interject my personal thoughts on this.

Many years ago, I dated a stone butch. I needed to really understand what that meant. What did stone mean? She and I discussed it at great length and I discussed it with Femme's. This was my issue not hers. I needed to be sure I could handle not touching my partner - I needed to be sure I would not try and impose my feelings on her. She was stone, there was nothing for her to change about herself. There was much for me to change about myself, if I wanted to be in this relationship. It meant, I would need to learn what to do with my hands. It meant, I would not longer be exploring a female's body like I had in the past. Not once did I feel less than because of this. If I was to get into this relationship, I better know what I am getting into. We wound up being together for many years. I understood everything about her by communicating with her.

When I got involved with Dreamer, this was a completely different dynamic. Dreamer was a dominant and a sadist. What did all that mean? I read every single thing I could get my hands on. Everything. I talked to people, including Dreamer. I needed to be sure I could handle this relationship, before I entered it. It also meant Dreamer had to accept the parts of me that might not be comfortable going to certain places/spaces. It's just about communicating what is okay and what is not.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a Femme doing the research or a Straight Woman. MY GOD... If you are going to get involved with someone who you have never experienced (dynamics - trans, etc.) you better know who you are getting involved with and the dynamics associated with that person. A trans man who decides to get involved with a straight woman has the responsibility to be open in his dialogue and to welcome her questions. I have had friends who were with butches who later transitioned. The Femme's are the ones who searched out information, as much as they could - from their perspective. I hope that makes sense. A trans man cannot possibly know what it will be like for his partner. He cannot. She needs to communicate with him and ask questions to those in her community and read read read. So yes, I say - It is her responsibility since this area is so unknown to her, to get as much information as she can. It is her partners responsibility to never shame her with some of the questions she has.

Bottom line - It is about communication. I have never experienced a trans man placing this responsibility on his partner or vice versa. I have only experienced the balance. That is not to say, there are trans men who make it all about them. But there are many people in our world, who make it all about them.

Julie

You said it perfectly, thank you, Julie.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by Quintease

In short it seems that sexual ID appears to be irrelevant when it comes to dating someone trans.

You know, this is actually a very interesting statement you've made. When I first began my journey of embracing my identity as a transman and not a stone butch, I was partnered to a femme who identified as a femme lesbian. She was very supportive of me in my decision to proceed with this immense change yet she did make it perfectly clear that, were I to decide to transition, she would not remain by my side as my partner because she was a femme, lesbian.

This stayed with me and perhaps is why I do take interest in women's views when they begin to get to know me. Fortunately I no longer have to worry about such things... chuckles. However, when kitten and I first met it was something that I did ask her. I was very curious as to how she felt about her identity and whether or not this would change it.

No, labels aren't necessary. However we as individuals tend to find ourselves once we have already looked into the greater binary system of defining men and women, gays and straights, etc. I have always been conscious of the fact that to some, partnering with a transman can lead to some very deep soul searching for whatever reason. Their identity may come into question and I wouldn't like to downplay that in any way.

[BullDog]

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

[DeviantDaddy]

Julie, bravo.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Julie

When I got involved with Dreamer, this was a completely different dynamic. Dreamer was a dominant and a sadist. What did all that mean? I read every single thing I could get my hands on. Everything. I talked to people, including Dreamer. I needed to be sure I could handle this relationship, before I entered it. It also meant Dreamer had to accept the parts of me that might not be comfortable going to certain places/spaces. It's just about communicating what is okay and what is not.

I did the same thing with Riley. He is a GF sub who identifies as a pup. There is a HUGE difference between a pup and submissive (or slave etc etc).

When he approached me about being his handler (pup word for mentor) I researched as much as possible. I asked questions of a friend who owns a pup.

Like Julie, I needed to be sure I could handle the relationship. Leading someone is a HUGE responsibility.

Our communication has to be intact for things to work. In time, he approached me about being his Owner (pup for Dominant). And I agreed.

But I went into each stage of our relationship with a basis of knowledge that I would not have had without doing a little bit of homework.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

Bull, pardon my bluntness, but what your saying could be interpreted as "I love you, but have no interest in getting to know you" could it not?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DeviantDaddy

Bull, pardon my bluntness, but what your saying could be interpreted as "I love you, but have no interest in getting to know you" could it not?

Huh?
Me putting as much interest into getting to know her and her issues as she did mine would be me showing no interest?

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Huh?
Me putting as much interest into getting to know her and her issues as she did mine would be me showing no interest?

Ah, okay. Misunderstood you then. I was under the impression you were stating that you would not put forth effort in getting to know her and wouldn't expect her to do the same.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DeviantDaddy

Ah, okay. Misunderstood you then. I was under the impression you were stating that you would not put forth effort in getting to know her and wouldn't expect her to do the same.

the exact opposite

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

Bully,

That is you and that has worked for you and I am glad it has. My previous partner did not expect me to put effort into it. I was entering into a relationship and chose to learn as much about her as possible. In fact, it was effortless for me, because I loved her.

As far as wanting her to put effort into knowing me and my issues. Damn right I did. I want her to care enough about me to take the time to learn about me and my quirks/issues. When I was diagnosed with Cancer - I wanted her to know every little thing about my cancer without me having to explain it to her.

Julie

[BullDog]

Yes of course Julie. If we care about a partner or prospective partner we are going to want to get know all about them and their issues.

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that. It almost sounds like you would take little interest, therefor expect them to not put much effort in either. But I will not assume that is what you meant, perhaps I just read it wrong. And perhaps the wording you choose is what is making people grow semi-offensive at your comments.


I am a straight woman who always dated cis-gendered males. When I came into this with Daddy, I didn't want to change for him, I wanted to understand, as Laney and Julie have put it, that it was something I wanted to venture into. And I refused to do such blindly.

Perhaps when someone does have a particular taste, it is more natural, and just 'understood', to them. But I didn't have that understanding. Did I have the acceptance? Yes, I will thank my lesbian mother for all of that, being who she is was a lesson to me, to never judge others of alternate lifestyles/relations.

But I was a 'straight woman'. Though I jumped into the research like a new college student preparing his first 4.0 dissertation, I still had my fears. What if I wasn't ok, with all of it. And how could I make an educated decision, on what I could handle and accept, without knowing intricately every detail I could possibly learn about him.

I didn't see it as this big horrible thing called 'effort', I saw it as a way to truly begin to love him, because without knowing every detail, how can anyone say they 'love' someone as who they are? How many times, have you heard of, or been in a relationship where someone learned something new, and had to walk away? I can't say that it is something I would call 'love'. Then again, I go for it all, I refuse to settle for anything less.

Still, when Daddy and I talk about it all, his choices, his decisions, his desires in regards to everything, from going out to eat, to the surgeries he is considering, or the going on T. I ask SO many questions about it all. "ok, given your medical history, could this have adverse effects?" "is this dangerous to your existing issues?" "Did you ask about this, or that?"

If I did not take an interest in researching, and understanding those things, I would be lost, and therefor, without the reason and thought I offered him, he could possibly not think of something, that in the end could render him badly damaged for the rest of his life. Yes, this is a bit drastic in regards to most things, but if I did not know what all of this required, how could I truly ensure his safety? his well-being?

And do not take this, as me saying my Daddy is incompetent, I can see it coming already. But everyone needs another opinion, not everyone thinks up every possible detail. And this is just one way that I love him, completely.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this.

Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi.