Orange is the New Black: Season 2 Discussion

[imperfect_cupcake]

But... Isn't this following the book that was a real life experience of someone?

[Dude]

There's an interview with the writer on Huffpost.
Many things have been changed.
She is actually back with Larry and has no contact with
Alex.
Who read the book? I've read it was eh so I'm
not sure I want to.

[ProfPacker]

Yes, it is following the book
I am half way through it. I heard Piper Kierman say that the creators did use creative license in that the real life Alex and Piper were never incacreated together, the real Piper says that there was no sexual activity that she engaged in. So, to answer your question, the bare bones of the story were there and then, we'll was developed into the show we are drawn to

[Dude]

Bwah ha ha! The real plot thickens!
The real Alex is working on her own book!
She says they had a friends with benefits thing.
She was not Pipers first and Piper had many.
Too bad they couldn't have worked this out privately.
Hmm
The real Alex seems more than a little resentful about being
Portrayed as the bad influence!
I hope the show uses some of her side of the story too
Somewhere in the middle is the truth?

[imperfect_cupcake]

I was asking because the charachters.... Well there are shitty, horrible people in real life, like Healy. I have no doubt at all that any system is full of Healys. I know many sexist, mean assholes that don't get fired. In fact, get raises and move through the ranks.
I also know that people aren't all one way or another. For example in school the class I'm in, is 22 people. We've all been shoved together for two years. We all come from very different back grounds, different countries, different belief systems and different biases and bigotries.
One kid I was very friendly with was totally homophobic. In my normal everyday life, I'd never interact with someone like him. But I had to. I got to know S and I actually rather appreciated aspects of him. I also got to talk to him about being a gayer whenever he'd pipe up and slam homos. I did not go to the teacher and complain. Why? Because ratting on him would not have taught him a bloody thing. Just to keep his mouth shut. I had to work semi nude around him. I had to have him massaging me. And I him. So it was important we have some level of respect for each other. Even if that is tenuous. Working it out between us, rather than through an authority figure is a much better way to go.

We are stuck together for two years from 8am to 4:30 pm, eating together and getting semi naked together and touching each other. We all sort of try to work out things between us - and that can be really complicated considering each of us comes from a different back ground with different beliefs about what is respectful behaviour.

I can't even imagine taking that to the level of difference in a prison.
And I know from my working life that people in authority are often biased and bigoted. I can only imagine to work in the prison system (like my best mates mom when I was growing up) you'd have to be very tough, have a thick skin and you'd get worn out and jaded, pretty quick. His mom too no shit whatso ever and wasn't exactly empathetic.

I would not enjoy a tv show without complete and utter assholes in it. I like the characters are multidimensional and have various shades of good and evil in them. Makes them more realistic.

[ProfPacker]

there are many other systems where there are elements of what HB is saying. I know that after many years of working in inpatient psych hospitals, some nurses, social workers, orderlies administrators andpsychiatrists, etc. appear to develop that "thick skin" and (particularly when patients where approved by insurance to stay long stints) develop attitudes to different classes, races and psychiatric diagnoses particularly if they are non-compliant.

even if you are on staff and don't agree with those who have been in the system a long time, you are seen as niave. It is part of the human complexity that sometimes the lack of empathy is puzzling and troubling and the amount of aggression to those who need help is hard to take. Then, one day, you start to say the same things that those who you mocked as being hard ass and not therapeutic are saying and you have to either look at yourself and try to hold onto what you value as a way of treating people or you find yourself, at times, "going over to the other side" as a defense and protection. Very complicated and complex...that is what makes the show interesting. Even the assholes are given moments that the viewer may for a moment hold a different view of that character...until they are a cruel asshole again. Does this make sense?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Yeah, I do like that they make people three dimensional. Not just all good/all bad, Disney villan-good fairy kind of thing.

[Dude]

I am still tripping on the back story of all this.
The man they testified against is thriving in Nigeria.
He is still fighting extradition and thus far winning.
Their case against him seems to not be very good and he is
buddies with the president of Nigeria.

Definately not , someone to mess with

He was worth a mere 800 million back in the 90's and
has since become even more powerful ,successful and
established as a " legit" businessman.
Prince Buruji Kashamu.
He is on Facebook, FFs! He likes mcdonalds :] and being free...
I imagine.
If I was on that list of people testifying against him, I would go
Underground. Instead , this woman writes a book and is enjoying
her new celebrity status?
I don't get it.
Catherine Wolter ( the real Alex) just got off parole this past april.
In the article I read , she seemed to imply the parole thing as the reason she has not
spoken up earlier. She wants to get back with one of her prison wives.
Horrible mug shot , I'd be mad at Piper too. I couldn't find an official booking one for Piper.
Her sister Ellen , who had a romance with the guy might be the smartest
of all and stay discrete?

Yeah , yeah ( I know )
Back to Alex
They would not let her meet the real Alex ( before)
I'm hoping they will now before season 3.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Dude

I am still tripping on the back story of all this.

She wants to get back with one of her prison wives.
Horrible mug shot , I'd be mad at Piper too. I couldn't find an official booking one for Piper.
Her sister Ellen , who had a romance with the guy might be the smartest
of all and stay discrete?

Yeah , yeah ( I know )
Back to Alex
They would not let her meet the real Alex ( before)
I'm hoping they will now before season 3.

If I was in prison (!) I would definitely want a prison hubby/butch.

My long-term ex used to work at Sybil Brand in LA and they used to put all the obvious butch dykes in what was commonly called "The Daddy Tank".

*Sigh*

In my fantasy version, I'm the only femme in the daddy tank.

[Gentle Tiger]

I will never see a white van in the same way again.

[ProfPacker]

Just finished the book. It really only provided the shell for the series. After reading it Ican really appreciate, no, I am in awe of the writing, Jenji Kohn' s conceptualization off the characters and the richness of the women's interactions.Wow, she is a fucking genius. I can't wait to see what she will do after OITNB

[aishah]

i have complicated feelings about season two. most of it was entertaining (esp. taystee and poussey) but eventually during the last few episodes it got contrived and boring (except for miss rosa's storyline at the end). i really loved daya and the guard's relationship and the complexities this season...they were incredibly realistic in their portrayal of the ups and downs. i was really made uncomfortable by the depiction of black women's lives and suffering and by vee's character. vee was the first completely unsympathetic character in the whole series - even pornstache is portrayed as a somewhat sympathetic character - and she is a black woman. it just really went too far for me with the way the group of black women were portrayed this season, as entertainment for an audience that's mostly white. it was realllllly hard to get past that and i'm hoping that more people start speaking up about it. i did really like that this season seemed to take a more big-picture view and address the issues of disenchantment (on behalf of the guards who started out wanting to do something good) and the overall corporate corruption of prisons.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have complicated feelings about season two. most of it was entertaining (esp. taystee and poussey) but eventually during the last few episodes it got contrived and boring (except for miss rosa's storyline at the end). i really loved daya and the guard's relationship and the complexities this season...they were incredibly realistic in their portrayal of the ups and downs. i was really made uncomfortable by the depiction of black women's lives and suffering and by vee's character. vee was the first completely unsympathetic character in the whole series - even pornstache is portrayed as a somewhat sympathetic character - and she is a black woman. it just really went too far for me with the way the group of black women were portrayed this season, as entertainment for an audience that's mostly white. it was realllllly hard to get past that and i'm hoping that more people start speaking up about it. i did really like that this season seemed to take a more big-picture view and address the issues of disenchantment (on behalf of the guards who started out wanting to do something good) and the overall corporate corruption of prisons.

I have been reading the thread and enjoying the discussion, and wanting to post but just haven't had the energy I guess.

aishah: I wanted to address what you wrote about the portrayal of black women in the series, and in particular Vee. It feels important and if nothing else I just want to say I heard you and am thinking about it. Maybe you and/or others would like to engage in further discussion about it?

As a white person I want to try and be respectful and open as possible to whatever racism may be going on in all of that. I will also say up front I did not experience the story line with Vee, Taystee, Crazy Eyes, Cindy, and Poussey in exactly the same way you did. I'm trying to check my white privilege in that.

I was very disturbed by Vee and what she did to the others, especially how she manipulated Crazy Eyes and also Taystee's loyalty to her. I agree that she was the only character in the series that came across as completely villainous. She had no redeeming qualities. I do find Pornstache repulsive and think he is more pathetic than SYMpathetic, but that's just me. But certainly the implications are different with Vee.

For me, I didn't see the depictions of black women as monolithic. I'm trying to think about how the stories about them as a GROUP are harmful. I see them as all having different experiences and motivations. Like, Taystee trying to be loyal to the only mother figure she's ever known, while at the same time fighting against her sense of what she knows deep down is right and her love for her best friend. Crazy Eyes just wants to be loved and accepted. Black Cindy I am not entirely certain of her motivation, actually.

I found Poussey a character that really blossomed over this season. I loved hearing her story and I think she was dimensional and brave and had amazing amounts of integrity and love. Also, as the only openly queer black woman on the show and the most masculine presenting black woman--she seems important.

So, I guess I am struggling with seeing the line between laying open black women's struggles for the consumption of white folks and brutal honesty. What do you think could have been differently to make the stories of the black women seem less racist?

[aishah]

it's not that i find the stories monolithic - they aren't. it's that the first character with no redeeming qualities whatsoever is a black woman, which is kind of odd, and i really am uncomfortable with the fact that it feels like a lot of the storylines around vee and the characters of other black women in the show are told in a way that feels - manipulative to the point of being contrived. like the show is exploiting the very real pain of taystee, poussey, cindy, crazy eyes, and the others (mostly at the hands of vee) for entertainment.

which, i get it's a tv show. it's just that it feels like the portrayals have changed. in the first season the stories told felt more real, less manipulative, less...like "watch what these black women do to each other to hurt each other." for your entertainment.

i'm not black and i'm definitely not saying my way of seeing it is the only way. but if this were a group of native women portrayed this way i would have had an impossible time watching this (as a native woman).

it just feels wrong that the group dynamics of the black characters were exploited in this way. there are other group dynamics - you could argue that pennsatucky had vee's leadership role with the meth addicts and red with most of the white girls - but pennsatucky and red were shown in a way that was more sympathetic and the angst of the characters in their groups was not done in such a manipulative, contrived, here-let's-put-this-on-display sort of way.

there were a lot of things about this season - and this show in general - that i've liked (pretty much everything except for piper and alex, they get on my nerves). and maybe i'm reading this wrong, it just really made it hard to finish out this season and it's made me think twice about whether i want to keep watching.

edited to add - and i'm really particularly frustrated with the way the stories around these characters and the way their relationships to each other were affected by vee. not in general. i am grateful for the fact that this is one of the few/only shows that depicts queer and trans women of color well. i do think that there were some redeeming qualities to the complex portrayal of vee's relationships to both taystee and crazy eyes - the way both of them are looking for affirmation and develop a sense of loyalty, etc. the show also does a good job portraying the latina characters, it feels to me, at least. it's not that ointb is terrible at portraying women of color.

it's just - taken as a whole, the big picture with the vee storyline and how her actions affect all the characters did not come off very well to me. maybe if vee had been less one-dimensional, it would have felt less like black women's pain (at her hands) was being put on display for ratings. it was over the top and unnecessary. and it was painful to watch.

[ProfPacker]

it was really weird tonight and a testament to her as an actress. I saw Lorraine Touisant on The Fosters and she was so sweet and a good mother and then you think of her on OITNB and her acting is so opposite of her role on the Fosters. great actress

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by ProfPacker

it was really weird tonight and a testament to her as an actress. I saw Lorraine Touisant on The Fosters and she was so sweet and a good mother and then you think of her on OITNB and her acting is so opposite of her role on the Fosters. great actress

She's an AMAZING actress! I watch The Fosters too and really like her in that. But seriously--she was so believable in OITNB, and anyone that cam make us hate her that much definitely gave an outstanding performance!

[ProfPacker]

I totally agree and I was an episode or two behind in the Fosters (which is a great show, btw) and when I saw she was going to be in it, I was curious if she would make me put away my image of her as Vee and she did. We need to see more of her

[DapperButch]

...part way through I thought the season was going to suck. It ended up not being half bad.

Looking forward to Alex returning and hoping V is dead.


FYI: I have not read any of the posts in this thread

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

**SPOILERS CONTAINED WITHIN**

A number of folks on the site have finished Season 2 of OITNB and have expressed an interest in getting a discussion going. I decided to start a thread devoted to freely discussing the second season without worry of spoiling it for people who haven't finished watching.

Orange is the New Black Season 2: Talk amongst yerselves.

I will come back to post some of my particular thoughts in a separate post, but here are some ideas for discussion topics:

-How do you feel about Season 1 versus Season 2? Did you like one better than the other?

-Is there anything you were surprised about? Why?

-What was disappointing to you?

-What did you particularly enjoy?

-Do you have a favorite character? Why? Has your favorite character(s) changed this season?

-Is there a character that you hate? One you love to hate?

-Do you have a favorite episode?

-How do you feel learning about the characters' back stories and why they are in prison?

-How do you feel the show relates to lesbian experience? Gender expression? Race? Class? The prison system?

And anything else you can think of or want to comment on!

CCB, you did start this thread for season 2 discussion, for that very reason; the ability to discuss without worrying about anyone that did not watch it yet.

Simple enough to have a season 3 OITNB discussion thread...

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

CCB, you did start this thread for season 2 discussion, for that very reason; the ability to discuss without worrying about anyone that did not watch it yet.

Simple enough to have a season 3 OITNB discussion thread...

True, true. I wanna have my cake and eat it too, though, and discuss what I've watched so far without the rest being spoiled!!! LOL.

Someone suggested in the other OITNB thread having threads for each episode, or we could have one for the whole season and we just start discussing once we're done. I plan on bingeing pretty quick anyways!