Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[apretty]

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Linus

Me, as someone who was assigned female at birth but is male.



No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

[Martina]

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

[little man]

Originally Posted by apretty

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

kinda like transportation? moving from point a to point b?

i think, for me, this might just well be the case...that the 'trans' aspect is the place(s) i am until i arrive. i'm just not sure there is an actual arrival point. but, that would be my interior life. life in the world? i figure being taken at face value as a man means i've arrived. no one who sees me face to face calls me ma'am. could be the mustache, could be the bald spot. or, it could be that my overall presentation is what they expect to see from a man.

side note: i view male and man as two distinctly different things.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Jess

I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

i've never been big on "joining" or "belonging". i kinda meander along and look for spaces where i'm either welcome or fit in to some degree. mostly, i'm a loner. that being said....

i've spent most of my adult life in the company of queers...outside work, of course. between the straight world and the queer world...i fit with queers best. these days, i'm not sure i actually fit in either place. at this point in time, 'trans' gives me some credibility (if you will) in the queer world. it at least allows me a guest pass if not full membership.

i try to honor my past by keeping in mind the trials and tribulations that went along with not just *being* female but being perceived as female. and butch on top of that. i never really appreciated how difficult it is to be butch in the world until i began transition. it's a hard life. and a rewarding one.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Martina

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

i think, in some cases, identifying as trans can be a cliff note kind of deal for those folks we tell about our trans status.

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Linus

Does that clarify?

LOL, no it did not--but your further posts did, so no worries.

Originally Posted by little man

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

I have seen this possibility, just watching how the community has reacted to people who come in stating they are men. The reaction has been hostile every time that I have seen it. On the other hand, quite often those who introduce themselves as Transmen have been welcomed.

Originally Posted by Linus

No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

Ah. I've run into several guys (it's sooo much easier just to say guys! Such a relief to stop trying to figure out which word to use) who have insisted that they were never butch, that they were simply men from the beginning. Is that what you mean? Except they did include trans as part of their identity, but maybe they felt they had to in order to fit in the community... I know that over the years all different sorts of words got used to avoid the whole "Transman" label, so maybe that's related?

Originally Posted by little man

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

Damn, Wil, nothing could make more sense! I love this, and I think it is so true!! I also have done that, well heck--Gay Pride--I think LOTS of us have done that, fortified ourselves against shame that way!

I also have learned that I have more to offer than my queerness, but I find that it remains a strong part of my identity--still, over the years, it has moved back a little and now shares the primary identity space with my being pagan... and lately being a gardener is inching into the space, too; I am my own coalition government, lol.... well, that's quite a digression *blush* anyhow, I really loved your post.

[AtLast]

I do know 3 FtM's that are from way back (born in the late 1940's) that did not remain tied to the queer or lesbian community at all. As soon as all 3 were viewed as men publically, they lived as men, period. All 3 are straight and married to straight women. One of their wives had a lesbian relationship before, but not the other two.

It has been very interesting to come to the B-F community as a late-bloomer and experience all of the differing identifications here. Not even close to what I experienced before with this 3 men. I often wonder about generational differences as well as the role of the b-f dynamic about these differences.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

This needed to be seen again.

ALSO... To me, this is what it feels like:

I tell someone my name is Jenny and they call me Jennifer, and not just once, but continue to...I realize Jenny is often short for Jennifer, but if I have not told you to call me Jennifer, why would you assume it is OK? (my birth name is JENNY, for the record)

What happened to listening to what someone defines themself as and honor it? What happened to taking someone's preferred label at face value? What happened to respecting this, which is to address and or greet me as I have asked?

If you tell me you are a trans identified man (he/him) and your name is Mike, then I will say..."that guy Mike, he is cool!"

[Greyson]

Somehow I missed this thread. Most of you know, I identify as a Transmasculine Butch and Transman. I do not identify as FTM. What I see much of the time is the binary being held as the only option. I honestly feel that I am a combination of masculine and feminine. My preference is to be referred to as "he" and I do not think I was born into the wrong body. I think I was born into the body that was correct for me at the time. I have altered my body to align with who I see myself to be. Will I ever have bottom surgery? Most likely not.

Each person gets to make their choices when it comes to their own body. I will respect their choice and address them as whatever their preference is. For myself I do not see myself having some end point in my "transition." IMO, all of life is about continuing, growing and transformation. (This emcompasses more than only the physical attributes.)

[EnderD_503]

I think this is a great topic because many people don't really understand how someone could consider themselves the opposite of the biological sex they were assigned at birth while not considering themselves trans-anything. Not FtM/MtF, not Transman/Transwoman, not transsexual, not transgender etc. I noticed a lot of the same confusion in the FtM vs. Male Id'd Butch thread, I think it was.

To answer Linus' question, no I definitely don't consider all those who were assigned the wrong biological sex at birth always trans-something. Why would they need to be? It's all highly individual, since there are many ways someone assigned the wrong biological sex can identify and various courses of action that can be taken to make one feel more at peace with one's body. Also, whichever course a person takes, does not make them any less/more of something than anyone else, imo. Some may consider themselves transmen/women but not male or female, while others consider themselves third gender, something else entirely, a mixture of the two or certain aspects of the two, others consider themselves strictly male/female but not trans, some retain/take on butch/femme or any other label they feel suits them.

I would consider a person the gender/sex they've expressed themselves as, not the one I think they are by my own definition. Why should I create somebody elses label? I think the only reason a person would do so would be due to their own inhibitions regarding gender/sex, and generally being uncomfortable with certain gender expressions. Personally, I consider myself both male and butch, still a part of the b/f dynamic and not trans or female (distinguishing biological and neurological) or anything else, and would extend the same courtesy toward others as I would like to receive myself. I think I would be pretty hypocritical if I did otherwise, and I think doing so polices gender.

I also don't understand the idea that somehow if someone who was born one biological sex and considers/understands themselves to be of the opposite sex, they should no longer be a part of the b/f dynamic or lgbt community. We, of all people, should understand the variety found in human gender expression. Male, butch, trans, femme, female etc. are not mutually exclusive.