Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Corkey]

If in the "hundreds of lesbians" you find even a handful of Butches and Femmes who claim that gender identity for themselves you will have found a minority. The vocalized anti Butch Femme is something to pay attention to, because those are the genderphobic, I never said all of them were. Personally I have no time for those types of people.
Butch and Femme are a minority in a minority. I wouldn't say anything to people who are anti any group, I just wouldn't associate with them. Under my breath I may say a whole shipload of stuff, but I tend to ignore those who show their a@@'s publicly.

[Dance-with-me]

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

I am in that un diversified boat of a town. That's why I said invite them here. I don't have any choice, it's either here or nowhere. I don't associate with people who are genderphobic, that's a personal choice. And in this town here is all I have.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

I'm wondering about why you feel so determined to be a part of this group of people??

I understand how it is to not have any *like* people around. We live in lower Alabama. We have either people who are gay who don't "approve" of us or straight people who don't "approve" of us. We stick with people who DO "approve." All our interactions of a personal matter are with straight people who have grown to know and love us for individuals. I mean, we know NOBODY here that is gay, of any gender. But that's ok......for US.

Do you need to be a part of this group?? Could you maybe find a few people who you click with and start with that? I understand wanting to change how people view things but I've learned that when I come in *trying* to change hearts and minds, it never works. Feelings get hurt and usually they are mine.

I try to find individuals and connect one on one. Maybe you could try to start smaller. If you keep putting yourself out there, and be true to who you are, you might just make more progress than you'd think. One of our best friends is a man who used to be a high ranking KKK member. By spending time with us, he's had some sort of awakening. He's our biggest chearleader and protector. All we did was speak our truth and we now have a serious supporter and a voter for gay marriage.


Don't try so hard. Unless for some reason you HAVE to. It would make me exhausted to try to change all those minds. PHEW!


Take Care,
julie

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

Dance-with-me, It is worth the effort! GO for it! Keep us posted on your progress! Educators like you are much needed!

...edited to add, and people who like to bring others together are much needed!

[Martina]

I think it's a perfectly good choice to want to hang out with other dykes or non-butch-femme queer folk. It does require some educating. *yuck*

But I have had to do that with straight people re queer stuff and with queer and straight people re leather stuff.

I find leather people to be, in general, cooler about gender. I have to admit that non-butch-femme leather dykes do tend to be more judgmental even though they see butch and femme all over the place. That's my personal experience.

I had a bisexual Dominant who was much cooler about gender than a dyke Domme. I was wearing more make-up and jewelry back then, and she wanted me to not wear it because it didn't please her. That was entirely fair given our connection. BUT it didn't please her because she thought of femininity as pandering to men, as something shameful. A proud woman, in her mind, did not need that stuff. It's hard to educate from below, and I am not sure I did. That relationship did not last long.

AND as a femme who doesn't do much dressing up or wear much make-up or jewelry, I have gotten WAY WAY WAY more shit from my butch-femme community than I have from straight folks. And that hurts a hell of a lot more.

So, it seems to me there's always a battle.

Anyway, I totally totally get wanting to be among queer folk.

[Dance-with-me]

My motives are far more self-serving than to just attempt to educate the hostile.

It's about wanting to be among queer folk in my community. I am part of some fantastic online communities - and am beginning to count this one among those. And I have made some life-long and deep, lasting friendships among people that I've met online. But online and long-distance doesn't give you someone to play cards with on Saturday nights, or go out to dinner on your birthday, or help you move all the shit around in your house after your ex finally moves out then holds you as you cry then forces an extra martini or four into you and makes you laugh your ass off. And my only good friends around here are moving 100 miles north, and after that I will have only friendly acquaintances. If I want real friends, I'm going to have to put some work into it. This is just one layer and one direction for that work.

It's about wanting to provide a safe space for those who are butch and femme to speak out about it because *I* need a safe space to speak out about it. I am fully out about being gay - who I love - in my personal life and at work. But being Femme is... a level more personal than that for me, because it's so enmeshed with my sexuality, and it's pretty obvious from who I am and how I look and act and who I chose to be with and how he looked and acted (though YES, there are butches and femmes who do not look/dress as we might expect, but I do, and my ex did). And I want real friends who can get that or at least accept that about me. And I have to believe that hidden among this community are some potential members of my tribe.

I may do this discussion and NO ONE will come. I may do this and the only people who come will be clueless or hostile. OR I may do this and two people show up, one who is open to thinking outside the box she's lived in with regard to gender expression and one who is thrilled to find other butch/femme-identified folks in our community.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

My motives are far more self-serving than to just attempt to educate the hostile.

It's about wanting to be among queer folk in my community. I am part of some fantastic online communities - and am beginning to count this one among those. And I have made some life-long and deep, lasting friendships among people that I've met online. But online and long-distance doesn't give you someone to play cards with on Saturday nights, or go out to dinner on your birthday, or help you move all the shit around in your house after your ex finally moves out then holds you as you cry then forces an extra martini or four into you and makes you laugh your ass off. And my only good friends around here are moving 100 miles north, and after that I will have only friendly acquaintances. If I want real friends, I'm going to have to put some work into it. This is just one layer and one direction for that work.

It's about wanting to provide a safe space for those who are butch and femme to speak out about it because *I* need a safe space to speak out about it. I am fully out about being gay - who I love - in my personal life and at work. But being Femme is... a level more personal than that for me, because it's so enmeshed with my sexuality, and it's pretty obvious from who I am and how I look and act and who I chose to be with and how he looked and acted (though YES, there are butches and femmes who do not look/dress as we might expect, but I do, and my ex did). And I want real friends who can get that or at least accept that about me. And I have to believe that hidden among this community are some potential members of my tribe.

I may do this discussion and NO ONE will come. I may do this and the only people who come will be clueless or hostile. OR I may do this and two people show up, one who is open to thinking outside the box she's lived in with regard to gender expression and one who is thrilled to find other butch/femme-identified folks in our community.

Then do it. There is no one telling you not to. Right now there are people from this very site doing a reunion, where everyone is welcome, no matter where they fall in the circle (I hate the spectrum analogy because it infers liner). Community is what we make of it, no matter who shows up.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Martina

I was wearing more make-up and jewelry back then, and she wanted me to not wear it because it didn't please her. That was entirely fair given our connection. BUT it didn't please her because she thought of femininity as pandering to men, as something shameful. A proud woman, in her mind, did not need that stuff. It's hard to educate from below, and I am not sure I did. That relationship did not last long.

I was told this *exact* same thing by my second queer partner. I thought she would LIKE when I dolled it up a bit. Um, not so much. I was floored when she put a baseball cap and one of her oversize flannel shirts (I am not shitting you) and and proceeded to tell me hot I looked.

I *thought* b/c she was more on the andro/masc. side, she would appreciate my more traditional markers of femininity. I had NO idea (based on my limited experience), that she was, in fact, turned off when I did my hair, put on makeup and wore skirts/dresses/heels etc.

Didn't last long, either.

Btw, I totally GET what this thread is about and the OP's need for community as well as, perhaps, for discussion in regards to gender and butch/femme topics in some lesbian circles.

ETA: God, I wish these discussions would happen in the straight community, too. The word "butch" is perceived as an ugly, insult by many.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

I'm with femmsational on this one... getting people to think of their own journey/presentation as unique and worthwhile and then being open to others experiences is a useful tool for perspective taking.

In my own journey to femme and then the butch/femme dynamic in a relationship I had a few stops with other people. Each person had their own presentation/way of being. Just as I would expect individuals to have because they are individuals. Some of the underlying tension in our relationships was related to my at times unnamed desire for a dynamic that: neither of us knew about, one didn't like and was outspoken or even the other persons desire to make the other be more like something they weren't.

At times the language and views/judgements of our community (queer and straight) helped shape how we (the 2 people in the relationship) proceeded or tried to function with our feelings (how we saw ourselves, what we couldn't name). So I can understand the need to talk about this.

I often wonder without creating a platform/meeting/dissertation how to get out to folks as an open minded person. Sometimes the urge strikes me to raise my hand, wave it a bit and give a general reminder... Hay folks if you want an open discussion about something tweaking you hit me up. Struggling with judgements of yourself and others? Lets chat.

Asking questions is the best small way I have come up with when with people in passing or in the moment. Why they feel that way, what got them to that point, why not another point of view... etc.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Too often this topic degenerates into a bashing of lesbians that are not into butch-femme and that always irritates the shit out of me.

I stand by my original comment.

We are all different. Some of us are into butch-femme, some are not. Some of us date trans, some of us do not.

I do not care if other lesbians do not like, do not approve or are not into the BF dynamic. It does not affect me one iota.

I do my own thing. I accept wherever my lesbian sisters are, whomever they are attracted to-regardless.

Anything else feels divisive to me.

I will not support divisiveness in any form, for any LGBTQ. There are too few of us in this world to do that.

I am not superior than anyone just because the butch-femme dynamic turns me on and is what does it for me.

We really can't control who or what we are sexually attracted to. It is an extremely complex dynamic that is interwoven into the very fabric of our being.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I stand by my original comment.

We are all different. Some of us are into butch-femme, some are not. Some of us date trans, some of us do not.

I do not care if other lesbians do not like, do not approve or are not into the BF dynamic. It does not affect me one iota.

I do my own thing. I accept wherever my lesbian sisters are, whomever they are attracted to-regardless.

Anything else feels divisive to me.

I will not support divisiveness in any form, for any LGBTQ. There are too few of us in this world to do that.

I am not superior than anyone just because the butch-femme dynamic turns me on and is what does it for me.

We really can't control who or what we are sexually attracted to. It is an extremely complex dynamic that is interwoven into the very fabric of our being.

I agree with your ideas on divisiveness and the complexity of attraction. I hope my post didn't come across as an attack.

As for that long ago ex: I did feel rather attacked by her attempt to change the core of who I am when she was well aware of my presentation prior to getting together with me. I wish she hadn't tried to change me. It was rather confusing me as a newly out queer, and I actually did compromise who I was to a certain degree in order to mould myself into some version of what she needed attraction-wise.

This is all before I discovered B/F and the affirmation that I was just fine carrying on the way I was and that others understood the ways I move through the world.

One more thing I just remembered. I recall a conversation with a friend (lesbian) where I did have to try to explain myself. She was a bit miffed I think, at first, about the B/F dynamic and my relationships. After a chat or two, it was fine and I think she was truly interested and *got* it more. I do think there are ways to have these conversations with the wider queer/lesbian community, and I gotta give some props to Dance as I don't know if I could start or lead a conversation about gender dynamics or B/F stuff with a larger group.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Soon

One more thing I just remembered. I recall a conversation with a friend (lesbian) where I did have to try to explain myself. She was a bit miffed I think, at first, about the B/F dynamic and my relationships. After a chat or two, it was fine and I think she was truly interested and *got* it more. I do think there are ways to have these conversations with the wider queer/lesbian community, and I gotta give some props to Dance as I don't know if I could start or lead a conversation about gender dynamics it with a larger group.

I agree with the props for Dance. Also, I think it is pretty cool that she admits that it is mostly a self serving thing...she is seeking friends in an otherwise androgynous community...rather than it being all about education.

I don't live in the area she lives in, but I know it well. She will be walking into a room of lesbians who will number one not be so keen on her gender presentation, and number two are almost proud of their discrimination towards butches and femmes who date butches. I think she is right that there are probably "closeted" butch defined people in that group since being butch is almost a shameful thing in that community, especially in her age group.

Dance-With-Me, you may want to consider finding butch/femme/trans people by advertising for a butch/femme/trans group, if that is your main purpose in bringing up this topic.

[Dance-with-me]

I can't fathom why inviting dialog on something would be inherently divisive, and I can't find in anything I've written about my supporting anyone trying to change anything about anyone (other than to provide an opportunity to open a few minds) but I think we're just not getting each other and it's fine to just let it go at that.

[Dude]

maybe just run an ad on craigslist
for platonic friends (butch and femme)?

I have thought of doing so
as I have a huge void where my best friend
of 28 years passed away a few years ago.
but she was a tweener (andro, whatevah)
who not only understood me and all my quirks
but knew exactly what my type was / is,
was always supportive and never questioned it or me.
The best friend evah!
So, I'm not sure I would even put the butch or
femme part in there in terms of friendships.
things that make you go hmmm

[Femminator]

Maybe starting off the presentation with signs, with words on them like Butch, Femme, Androgenous, Stone, Transgendered, etc. Ask the people present to write down what each of these words means to them, ask them what stereotypes they associate with these words. Now, you address each of the stereotypes of those words. Maybe even pics of people who embody the gender lables you present. For butch there are many people you could choose from, KD Lang, Rachael Maddow, even Ellen, the trick is to make sure that you get several different looking types of butches so they get that there is not only one type of butch. If you get this for each label, people will see that their narrow views of a word is not correct. It may not change minds, but it definately will spark some conversation.

Good luck.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Femminator

Maybe starting off the presentation with signs, with words on them like Butch, Femme, Androgenous, Stone, Transgendered, etc. Ask the people present to write down what each of these words means to them, ask them what stereotypes they associate with these words. Now, you address each of the stereotypes of those words. Maybe even pics of people who embody the gender lables you present. For butch there are many people you could choose from, KD Lang, Rachael Maddow, even Ellen, the trick is to make sure that you get several different looking types of butches so they get that there is not only one type of butch. If you get this for each label, people will see that their narrow views of a word is not correct. It may not change minds, but it definately will spark some conversation.

Good luck.

Great idea(s)!

[Red Dirt Girl]

Originally Posted by Corkey

If in the "hundreds of lesbians" you find even a handful of Butches and Femmes who claim that gender identity for themselves you will have found a minority. The vocalized anti Butch Femme is something to pay attention to, because those are the genderphobic, I never said all of them were. Personally I have no time for those types of people.
Butch and Femme are a minority in a minority. I wouldn't say anything to people who are anti any group, I just wouldn't associate with them. Under my breath I may say a whole shipload of stuff, but I tend to ignore those who show their a@@'s publicly.

On one level I completely agree with Corkey's sentiment of “no time for those types of people”. I don’t want to feel pressured or required to explain myself or my partner or my preferred interpersonal dynamics romantically, sexually, fill-in-the-blankly, etc. just because someone is uncomfortable or doesn’t get it. If they are living in a majority kind of universe, I don’t think it’s common for them to be asked to explain or defend the way they live. But I also don’t want to assume that perceptions can’t change, that growth can’t occur, that understanding can’t settle into the space once occupied by fear/anger/disgust/whatever. I don’t think it’s a waste of energy to try to pry open a mind, especially when doing so has the potential to ultimately make the world a safer, happier and more free place for me (you, them, we, us…) to live in. In my experience, it is the talking about and being open with the difficult/personal/mind-your-own-business stuff that affords folks the opportunity to change their perceptions. It’s obviously not our job to do this, and it’s certainly not everyone’s cup of tea, but if we are able to safely be out and visible and vulnerable and communicative, we might find more minds opening than we expected. (I finally came out to my 87 year old, relatively conservative aunt who now asks about my partner on a regular basis! Go Aunt Lill!!)

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

Hi, Dance-With-Me. It might be too late to respond to your post (I see it's a year old), but what I'm hearing is that you feel alone in this group, and not only that, you feel that your self-expression is misunderstood.

I wonder how it has gone with you, being in this group for a while now (if you're still in it).

I've felt exactly the same way, in Meetup groups. But I don't feel inhibited about my identity. If someone has a problem with the kind of women I'm attracted to (butch), I don't care.

Meetup groups that are centered around a shared interest might be a better place to connect. But I've always found that groups centered on sexual preference or identity don't yield a lot of potential friends for me.

I imagine straight people getting together because they share being straight, and the collection of people it would attract. What are the odds of friendships forming?

I'm sure my logic is really flawed here. Just bottom line, I'm saying I relate to how you're feeling, except I would never try to educate people. I'm just myself and anyone who can handle that is welcome to hang around and talk.

Scout

[TruTexan]

Dancewithme, did you ever approach the subject matter at hand in r/t? I am curious since we haven't heard back from you about it????