The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[adorable]

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by BullDog

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well.

Yes, Bully. I am not worried about anyone in real time or online "seeing" my masculinity; in fact, that's laughable to me. Yet, I think for others that may be a real issue that feeds some personal need to erase "woman" from "butch"-- even if that's regarding others. For me, and for many I know who ID as butch women, the "woman" part is what's lost, obscured, unacknowledged, or disrespected in real time and online. I don't fit anybody's notion of woman based on social constructs and definitions -- which absolutely always do come into play.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

To see female ID'd or butch women characterized as less masculine or not as butch really is ironic, irritating, and irksome considering my daily experience of walking through the world and being perceived as too masculine/butch. It would be funny if I didn't have to deal with the crap the world sends my way and then be confronted in queer spaces with the ridiculous attitudes and posturing surrounding the very idea of what butch is. While I have always looked to queer spaces for a place to find kinship and understanding, it's not all that fun to see myself defined by others in ways that aren't indicative of my reality.

Originally Posted by adorable

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

Yes, this would be lovely. Hope to see it happen someday.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.

Met, misinterpretations are beyond our control, but intention does count, and yours is clear. Thank you for taking the space.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.

That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.

I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...

Thanx everyone

Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.

That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.

I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...

Thanx everyone

Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.

Have to add that I too, am getting positive reps about my posts from male-ided/trans/intergendered folks. They understand, respect, and support the thread and also know we are all on the same side and are not in the least bit put off (or defensive) with our taking a look at what is unique to the female-identified butch. They get it! and know that I return mutual respect and understanding And I appreciate this very much. I honestly see BFPlanet as a site that can finally be a place where we can have harmony. I feel very fortunate to have these kinds of butch friends.

[Jett]

I've been thinking about this thread, and about how I knew starting it would taken wrong by some. How peeps may take it as an affront to X, or think damn feminists I'm tired of it can't we just have fun? Well exactly... can't we?

Hey, I'm a really easy going person. I'm pretty damn mellow actually, pretty low key. In real life I've never really rapped about these things. I'm a simple peep with simple likes, and I'm a deep thinker with a big heart, I like to ride and rebuild motorcycles, play guitar, shoot basketball, play pool, have a bud with a bud, find a good suit second hand, spend time with my lady...simple things make me happy. I don't rant about sexism over dinner, I don't talk about misogyny at a party... I'm not to sure I've really ever talked at length about that stuff with anyone real life.

And frankly I've never called myself a feminist, don't really know enough about it's history- speak- in and outs, never been in women's only space... but... if feeling the injustice of the world toward women deep enough to speak out makes me one, then I guess I'm the accidental feminist. Maybe I just don't deal with feeling disrespected well (or seeing people I love dissed).. face to face I'm probably likely to let the first covert or accidental one fly (maybe two), after that I'll say hey that's not cool please don't say do whatever (benefit of the doubt)... but after I say it and someone keeps doing it your likely to be escorted out of my house.

I have big luvs for my B-F community... from A to Z. I know a lot of peeps here real life, a lot I don't, but definitely consider friends (a few just like r/l not so much, it happens). So it doesn't feel good to have to call out shit here any more than it does to hear it. I don't enjoy conflict, or the friction between some ID's, frankly though I see it- I'm just not feeling it in me and really don't want any part of it. I don't have some "group dislike". I'm not sure I'm even capable of that with any group in life (aside from say groups of the Fred Phelps variety) let alone toward masculine ID's like myself.

Identities are identities, they aren't people or personalities. The disrespects I've spoken of in relation to Female ID absolutely are NOT coming from one source, NOT one single ID and to be honest I've heard just as many sexist or sometimes just ignorant remarks from some random femmes mouth as I ever have from other masculine ID's like myself (and a few Female ID). So I never get why calling out the shit (sexism/misogyny) gets taken by some as putting the blame on the shoulders of Male ID's... it's not their doing and not just limited to any one group.

And back to me, despite being sick of the sexists remarks and the fact I don't know how exactly to change it sans call it out, and being really fecking tired of talking about it (I just want to live life), and definitely not one hair of desire to create a thread that I knew was going to be taken wrong and have good intentions be cast in a bad light by some, thus risk ending up in a never ending battle deflecting accusation which I'd rather drink a cold cup of dog shit than end up in...

... I did it anyway, because A. I'm Female simple as that (and to me being an adult female by default I'm a woman... not an ID and it's not political) and B. I have friends who I hear say they feel the sting too and don't feel like there being very well heard or seen... and that bothers me.

That is why this thread is here. This is how I feel, if the intent of this thread doesn't get heard I think it's only to those who don't want to open their ears or minds.

Ok, I'm again pretty talked out but all that said I hope this thread can now carry on in the spirit it was intended.

Metro

adorable, as far as your reference to this thread not going anywhere (as in resolving male female ID conflicts) unless we allow all ID's in here... although that's not what this thread is going to be about, I'd like to point out I already stated this thread IS open to all supporters and allies of the Female ID... and just so you know it, because I do, that includes many many Male ID, FTM, Trans because I've found many of them great friends and an allies in my real life and online already.

[Beau]

I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.

1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)

2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)

3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)

4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)

So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me.

Beau

[Martina]

Originally Posted by adorable

I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred.

i wish that were true. It is not, unfortunately.

[Martina]

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

[Beau]

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

i think all butches are aware of sexism and homophobia as it affects them on a daily basis. Are they aware of the many gender identities that exist and the biases common online and in some urban communities? No. Most are not. Whatever else may be going on in their lives, for better or worse, most are not.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Martina

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

I really hear what you've said Martina, it's something that's bothered me for a lonnnng ass time, and the way you put it kind of pinpointed something about it for me (and it speaks to some of what Beau has said as well).

I value this community and my friends here very much... but I wish I never knew of some of the ID'd politics that exist here, "ignorance is bliss" is truth in this arena.

Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.

It's like... so- the- fuck- what?

The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.

"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.

From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.

Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.

It works for some just not for me... anymore.

Metropolis
*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.

It's like... so- the- fuck- what?

The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.

Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.

From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.

Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.

It works for some just not for me... anymore.

Metropolis

You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.

:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*

Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.

1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)

2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)

3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)

4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)

So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me.

Beau

WOW, Beau, you have put forth a pretty comprehensive review, here! I hope we have discussions and additions to all of your points. And, as someone that really in the scheme of things, came to the B-F dynamic as well as butch identification rather late in life, I am having one of those I am not alone moments!

I have especially had some deeply troubling feelings about this devaluation from some (absolutely, not all) femmes. A point that I want to bring up, however, is that many times in this online context, I have been able to look at some of these comments in the context of perhaps a femme being defensive because of being partnered with (and loving) a transperson. I have seen many instances of femmes being attacked for this and their femmeness (even queerness) questioned within this community.

With that being said, there have been quite a few times (actually speaking about real time, right now), in a dating context, I have felt pressure to become more masculine from a femme, even to the point of having things said to me like you have slender hips and that would be good for transitioning. Or, just being a butch that doesn't pack (I will if it is requested from a femme I am seeing when its just one of those sexy thangs she likes - which is just between the two of us).Obviously, continuing to date these femmes was not an option for me. Even when I really cared for one of them. I'm who I am in general as myself and as a butch. My feelings here were that this is just not a good fit! If this is what a femme wants, then I certainly think she should have it, but it won't come from me. LOL.... I still can't fathom why these women even accepted a date with me! Made no sense. And, sure, I had a couple of pissed off moments about this.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.



You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.

:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.




Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob.

Here's the short answer: "Just Butch" to me is and always was butch and female and/or woman... it's what I lived as my life as and it never stopped me from speaking, being, taking pride in myself as a female, a woman, a butch.

And it won't now. Same Stone Butch BullDyke here, just on my own terms and terminology and not an added ID created for online politics... and I have absolutely no intention of losing any visibility in being seen as a proud butch female... just in living the same life I have in the real world here. And just to be sure it's clear, I'm speaking about dropping the word "ID'ing"- as in the term Female and/or Women ID'd... not about not claiming or speaking as a, or with butch female and/or women when and where I please.

I just feel like I'm playing into the very (online) politics that I don't support.

Here's the long answer: (just to make things overly complicated )

If a online ID system is flawed and were using it, we're upholding it. I know the reason we're using it, to be seen, visible, but I feel like I can easily achieve that without it (we already have/do in R/L). I believe it works well for Male ID butches, and it's necessary for them. But I think it works against butches who identify with being female just in the fact alone it inadvertently draws away from the fact that most butches, real world and here are and are already recognized as female without having to qualify the word butch with an added ID to express it.

And honestly an ID system used to categorize butches, that seems to inadvertently backfire when used on the female end isn't all that productive... especially if you can express being butch and female w/o turning the female part into looking as a qualifier or maybe better said modifier of the word butch by making it an "ID"... it's just plain getting misread a lot as that.

There's a hundred ways to say I'm a proud, I'm butch, I'm female without needing to use a qualifier ID... I like this one:
"stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman" (my friend Lonnie said that)

Last... it just plain feels backwards (to me) to have to ID myself as a female because I'm a butch... and again it just feels like playing into the same online politics I don't support.

I hope you get what I'm saying... I know many won't agree but it feels like the right thing.

Oh and I'll leave my dance card right here, in case you, well you know...

Metropolis

[imperfect_cupcake]

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

You are addressing some things that I think about a lot. The preoccupation with identities - it feels so constricting to me so very much of the time. Yes, I'm a butch.... but this is a very small part of who I am. In fact, it isn't all that significant at all. I'm a woman, a lesbian, a feminist, a parent, a retired professional, a neighbor, a disabled person, a sister, an Aunt and a Great Aunt, a writer, a volunteer and on and on. Butch is just part of the mix. It is not the whole of my existance.

I have met and befriended some really fine people via the online community we share, but my life does not revolve around this. Yes, I like to interact with people here. My social connections and activities are not B-F centered. I don't date within this community even though I date femmes (although, they can run the full range of whatever femme can appear to be). To be honest, I don't care if someone I am seeing identifies as femme. Many women do not and certainly get the dynamic. They don't need the labels and identity restrictions that these labels often bring with them. i don't want these either.

I have dated more often than not, women that simply do not want involvement in online sites like this one. Some would not attend B-F specific events. This is fine with me. If i want to attend something related to the B-F community, I can always attend by myself or with friends that want to attend.

I do have a connection with the site and as I said, some people here. I will do some social activities to be able to say hello to some people I just plain like from this community. But, I won't live my life boxed-in with being butch. I do feel deeply about social and political issues concerning the B-F community within civil rights issues and I will always speak-up about these and be active in organizations that help in effecting change that relates to this community.

[BullDog]

Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.

I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?

I don't think female identified butch is the flip side to male identified butch. I find female identified butch and woman identified butch to be rather meaningless terms, and I agree with Metro that they seem to work against us. I am not sure I see it as identity politics though. Most butches don't consider themselves to be male and don't wished to thought of as such. We have to speak up to make this known.

Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.

Online there's a lot of double speak. People will say that yes they believe butch women are just as butch as anyone else, just as masculine as anyone else, and then totally contradict themselves five minutes later with some other statement. It happens quite often. People of all gender identities do it.

It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.

[WickedFemme]

Can I just say, "I love you all" for being yourselves and not giving in to pressure, expectations, etc...
I am so attracted to those who are comfortable in themselves and with themselves... the confidence and perseverance is so attractive and appreciated.

I don't really have anything to add other than I totally support each and every one of you. I know it's a painful journey for all of us especially in our society and in our world where anything outside the 'norm' is perceived as less than. It's so difficult not to run around with rejection issues and project them onto each other especially after being rejected by our own Country and denied rights that every American enjoys 'if' they are heterosexual.

I have grown so much from reading everyone's thoughts and feelings and knowing some of you outside these websites for years... I have gained so much and appreciate everyone for all of their contributions...thank you for being uniquely 'you'.

I am femme and I strap it on yet I'm not 'butch'. so, lets please not equate sexual positions with gender ID's... has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

[Apocalipstic]

One of the things that strikes me from these posts is how much we as Femmes do to make things more difficult for Butches. (or easy)

The expectations we have.

The differences regionally or geographically in what is expected of a Butch by Femmes and vice versa. To open the door or not open the door. Who get the good parking space? who takes out the trash? cooks? kills the bugs and so forth.

I also must say that I agree strongly with Wicked Femme about sexual positions not equating gender ID. The expectation that the Butch is always the Top and always Dominant is not a realistic one.

On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.

Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?

There are things I see now in retrospect that I could have done better to be supportive of Butches I have dated...some who now have transitioned and some who have not. Things I should not have said, or worded differently.
Unrealistic expectations.....

Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.

[WickedFemme]

Apocalipstic, I agree so much with you. Had it not been for this community, I would have utterly remained in ignorance and continued to perpetuate a misogynistic sexist society even within the realm of a femme ID.

Because of people voicing about themselves, I have had to take a hard look at myself and evolve in my belief system(s), which I continue to do daily. I look back at where I stood ten years ago and the difference is amazing.. so, there is 'progress' happening no matter how small or large... it's happening because of all of us and beyond whether we agree or not.

I have really had to re-examine my expectations in regards to someone's ID and really get over myself in terms of putting myself into a 'box' of my perceived expectations. I no longer expect the 'butch' to pick up the check, hold the car door open, etc... If they do, it's nice but I try not to fall into that unrealistic expectation based upon some kind of social conditioning. The social conditioning is so incredibly difficult to overcome for each an every one of us. However, I think if we can make progress in terms of adjusting our own thoughts, attitudes and behaviors that eventually hopefully we'll reach some kind of acceptance not only of ourselves but the rest of our community members. It always starts with the "I" and hopefully translates into a "we"...

It's so liberating to let go of the old stuff and just 'be'... I am thoroughly enjoying myself more than I ever have and it just keeps getting better. I realize now that the posturing is nothing more than individual insecurities based upon preconceived notions and unrealistic expectations that we place not only on ourselves but project onto others.

I would really like to hear what more we can do to be supportive and more accepting.