The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Originally Posted by Kobi

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

This compelled me to de-lurk. I have to ask--when you say that ("lesbians who disown their femaleness"), are you talking about male-ID'd butches, transmen, or something else entirely?

~~~

Now that I'm here, though, I'd like to thank Metropolis for starting this thread. Over on the dash site, which I still do visit, I do often find that male ID'd butches and transmen are frequently regarded as the default (a particularly striking example perhaps being the name of the butch bonding forum--Butch Bruthas? No Butch Sistahs?), with butch women frequently thought of afterward, if at all. Which isn't to say I'm against acceptance of male-ID'd butches and transmen, but I don't accept the marginalization of butch women--in the straight world, let alone their own communities. My moral support isn't worth much, but suffice it to say if there's anything I can do to support you in a more useful fashion, I'd be happy to.

[Luckydwg07]

I will say that out in public I feel confident. I do have people stare/examine me but I look at them and give a smile & a hello. 99% of the time I get a hello back. I am part of society & the human race no doubt.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I


I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.

Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.

These points hit the spot, Bully!!!

It is about sexism... it is not about gender!!! Gender is fluid and frankly, I am grateful that within my lifetime, gender ignorance is being fought. Not just for the TG/I, all Butches, Femmes.... all of us here, but for every human being. Sexism is the culprit I want to see erradicated.

Yes, when I am simply a human being among the masses, I am a happy camper! Just me, strong, female masculine woman living my life, being myself!

Yet, I do run into (as we all do) unique circumstances as a consequence of my female masculinity. I'm not as sensitive to much of this as I once was, but, there are times it just plain sux! I hate it that just in terms of safety, I will not take public transportaion when going to events/activities in which I am putting on the butch like wearing a tie or tux. And that i do a mental inventory about getting anything I need at the store before I get dressed to go, so I don't have to go into a store... dappered-up.[/But the fact of the matter is, my rapid transit route intersects with a city in which a butch was kidnapped and gang raped and I'm not taking chances. Having had quite a few instances in my life in which I was physically attacked (or just about to be) because of how I look, does influence my behavior and choices. And I live 25 minutes from SF! I have been harassed on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) within the last few years. Verbal abuse is one thing... being beaten or raped is quite another!

[daisyfm]

Great thread! I thanked so many already!
My favorite part about butch women is that they are two things i like a lot: butch and women. period. two for one. the best of both worlds, the masculine and the feminine in perfect unison... music to my soul, my mind, etc, you get the picture. And when the part "woman" is rejected it is sad to me and I can understand it and respect it, yet I don't have to agree with certain things.
A lot of what is said here, and a lot of what happens in real time truly
makes me wonder why some people would want to fit in the binary system.
In my real time community I am seeing it a lot among both lesbian and trans groups. Nowadays everyone wants marriage and maybe children, and maybe a house, to live within the "binary security walls". Once upon a time, we were all outlaws and wanted to live as far away from the binary as possible. Go figure. Times change. I know that even if as a high femme I pass in the straight world I am NOT one of them for sure, I might never be in a binary system, I have lost jobs for being out (twice) and I don't want to be one of them either!
So yeah...what Butches have to deal with due to patriarchy is a lot. Period.
Even if they are out on a job, rarely do wives/partners get invited to corporate events, or picnics, and in other fields, there is much discrimination as well.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Simpler for whom?

For you, perhaps. But not for those who had the audacity to be 'other'.

[Jett]

What feels safe is my lumping myself into a space I kind of can slide by in... what feels less safe is a middle ground between two huge accepted gender designations.

"Other"... no matter where I go there I am facing it including here. Though I keep grasping at those straws, trying to place myself into "one or the other" (binary- woman or man) and once again when I do find myself uncomfortably in a position of just not quite belonging. There's only one place I had that I felt I could breath... and that was in my while back acknowledgment of "The Other Genders".

A couple months ago I'm looking at an old photo of myself (teenage for retroweek) and it triggered a strong desire to find the contentedness in her eyes, and I thought I found it in her being happy in her being "her", BUT totally missed that it's just her being ignorant (and blissful in that ignorance) to the implications of who s/he is/was and what it would mean in the world.

Then I get a bigger damn wake up, I wrote this thread for female or women butches... and hit submit, and the itchiness began. The more I try to speak from that position... the more itchy I get, the more that it's not right feeling rises up and the more I realize to I need to be forthright with myself and here. My body is female yes and will always be and I'm happy with that (though it tends to random masculine traits it's no doubt on the more female on the bits side)... but my mind is quite "other", it is very pangender, or androgyne, male and female by birth or by lived life... what ever it is what it is.

My self acceptance is a process in which denial has played too large a part and needs to be gotten over... I really want to just be who I am and it starts with owning it. I was going to re-write this and post it tomorrow but what the hell...

Metropolis
*still a female but perhaps not in the same sense this thread has and may follow*
-------------------------------------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?

[AtLast]

Other, yes, other. For me, other is the mix of female & male .... a merging and this feels right to me. Yet, it does not feel like what we have traditionally conceived via the gender binary. It is something other and needs no modification. Nuturance, yes, change, no. But, this is the other that fits for me, not everyone. This is how it has always been for me.

I just want to have a respected place in which I am seen for my character, not my gender. And not feel that I have to continually fight for recognition as the female I am. Nor do I want to be a more masculine woman that I am or put on false male bravado to be accepted as butch. This is out of character for me.

What I am is just a butch and happy with this.

[BullDog]

I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.

However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.

I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.

However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.

I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.

Bully I don't know if this is a response to me or your having random thoughts but...

I don't think claiming woman plays into the binary either, unless of course you don't feel like one and you do anyway... that does play into the binary.

With that I don't think that other genders claiming women if we don't own it furthers those identities (and "Other" has been around as long as female or male and also very oppressed) nor does it further women... or make either any "freer".

Bully, in the same way you embrace being a woman as you do butch, I have the "right" to fully embrace being "other" as I do butch... and like you it's empowering to me to embrace who I am... and to still stand with everyone who was born female in this sexist world... whether they be butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I don't think you have to be "woman" to feel some of the sting of or fight sexism... I'm still a female and I didn't break free from that ball and chain (sexism). But really if all genders fought it... not just women (or as women) it wouldn't even exist. Somehow I think I'm far from finished in fighting sexism and misogyny, whether from the mouths of butch, other genders, males or right from the mouths of women... you know... fight the real enemy, sexism... not those that aren't women.

And... I do think the binary's a "major problem" in the very least it's being held over peoples heads as "the normal" (including all butches etc.), in the worst if you don't fit into it, it can mean becoming just another hate crime statistic.

Peace
Metro

ETA: I, myself, don't want to go into the politics of how my gender as a female who doesn't identify as women affects women as a whole... I pretty much am dropping the politics of gender in favor of accepting myself in my gender and exactly what it is for me, not for what it does for/to others.

It's not about anyone else and I'm happy to keep it that way and just be done with all the should or shouldn't(s) of gender, I've done that too much already.

[BullDog]

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if not it's just another opportunity lost*

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if it doesn't it's just another opportunity lost*

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

Ok Bull... no need to explain, I know I can take you at your word and I'll just re-read a little.

Thanx,
Metro

[BullDog]

Thanks Metro.

[BullDog]

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

Personally... and I can only speak for myself... the- evolution- of- my- gender- had- nothing- to- do- with- fighting- the- binary. I was what I am before I ever heard of or thought about "the binary".

I'm fighting the binary now because my spot (gender) in life is in direct contrast with it and it's (the binary) damaging to me and people I care about as well.

As far as it being predominantly born females embracing other gender... I've never seen that... as far as I've seen there's more than plenty of male born Trans, MTF Androgynes, Pangender, even Flamers... etc.

Hardly a butch phenomenon so I don't know how to address that. Anyway like I said I'm tired of talking about this subject in the context of Other Genders.

And with that I'll vacate and let the conversation go where it may... but I needed to say that.

Peace out,
Metro
P.S. I (personally) didn't "abandon" the gender of woman... I simply made a correction to a gender that was assigned to me by a binary society that still can't see the possibilities of more than two genders... and didn't see my possibilities.

[BullDog]

Metro, we seem to not be understanding each other too well at the moment. On a personal level your gender identity comes from within to match the person you feel you are. Mine does too. Identifying as butch is what feels right to me.

I understand more than two genders need to be recognized. I am not feeling a sense of balance with the whole "fighting the binary" that I keep hearing people talk about, and don't see what is being fought for or to what end. From my perspective woman gets lost in the shuffle, but I guess I am taking this too far afield from your intent. I am out too.

peace,
Bully

[AtLast]

Woman/female as less than continues to dominate our society even within a community such as this, that claims diversity and equality and constantly measures butchness from a male perspective. Which is really ass-backwards as butch is historically female.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.

As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.

As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!

What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!

I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.

Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.

have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.

As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.

As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!

What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!

I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.

Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.

have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.

Yes I agree there is very little discussion about MTFs when gender is discussed in butch femme circles. I do agree that it's sexism. I would also like to say I very much appreciate the support that trans women give to butch women. Whenever there is a discussion about butch women they always show their support. They are true gender warriors and great allies.

I don't think femmes get recognized nearly enough for their gender transgression or being gender warriors either.

Masculinity is closely associated with male/non-woman in butch femme/queer circles.

None of these things make me very confident that much is being done to effectively fight the binary. As I said earlier it's very much oriented to the masculine (non-woman versions) side of things.

Hopefully there can be more talk about the positive aspects of being butch females and women. I don't have anything to add in that regard at the moment.