Veiling, Burqas and Western Feminism

[Martina]

i just saw this. It's by a French politician, trying to justify to Americans why they feel the need to outlaw veils that cover the face. i do not believe it for a moment. It is cultural. And i sympathize with that. i do. But still.

You know that London is the city most covered by video surveillance in the world. i cannot believe that that is acceptable to them, but it is. i work in a high crime area. i have been the victim of crimes. But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.

There's an article in this week's Nation, i think, by Katha Pollit -- about Berlin. They have had some form of public health insurance since the late 19th Century. And so on. i too envy a lot of the public institutions that some European countries have. But i would not give up the right to dress and worship as i please for any of them. Maybe that is a privileged person speaking, one who has usually had health insurance.

i am not jingoistic about the U.S., but the day will never come in this country when it is illegal to wear the veil. It's impossible to imagine. And i am very happy to come from THAT tradition. There definitely are things about the U.S. that i like, and this is one of them. That feeling IN ME that, by god, the day they pass a law like that, i will be on the streets to defend a practice i find personally abhorrent. And i know lots of people -- conservative and liberal -- who would feel the same.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Martina

But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.

Wow Martina...thanks for posting this link...and all I can say is "me too."

I found myself reading and thinking "is this for real? can he be serious?" But, alas, he appears to be.

I found myself offended on behalf of all women who make this choice that he equated the burqa with a mask...and then this statement...

"The person who wears one is no longer identifiable; she is a shadow among others, lacking individuality, avoiding responsibility."

Wow...just wow...

So, based on his argument, ski masks should also be outlawed...because they are used to cover the face of criminals. Surgical masks, worn by those who are ill or afraid of illness....outlawed. My big, fuzzy scarf - which I wear up over my mouth and nose on cold winter days....outlawed.

By his logic, to be a member of society I am obligated to show my face or I am somehow lacking individuality, avoiding responsibility...and evidently endangering the very fabric of society.

Wow.

Makes me want to go get a burqa and wear it to the French embassy just because....

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Martina

i just saw this. It's by a French politician, trying to justify to Americans why they feel the need to outlaw veils that cover the face. i do not believe it for a moment. It is cultural. And i sympathize with that. i do. But still.

You know that London is the city most covered by video surveillance in the world. i cannot believe that that is acceptable to them, but it is. i work in a high crime area. i have been the victim of crimes. But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.

There's an article in this week's Nation, i think, by Katha Pollit -- about Berlin. They have had some form of public health insurance since the late 19th Century. And so on. i too envy a lot of the public institutions that some European countries have. But i would not give up the right to dress and worship as i please for any of them. Maybe that is a privileged person speaking, one who has usually had health insurance.

i am not jingoistic about the U.S., but the day will never come in this country when it is illegal to wear the veil. It's impossible to imagine. And i am very happy to come from THAT tradition. There definitely are things about the U.S. that i like, and this is one of them. That feeling IN ME that, by god, the day they pass a law like that, i will be on the streets to defend a practice i find personally abhorrent. And i know lots of people -- conservative and liberal -- who would feel the same.

Interesting that this discussion is happening now. I'm currently listening to an audiobook recording of "The Future of Liberalism" by Alan Wolfe. In the book he calls liberals back to a form of 'classical' liberalism with a focus on individual rights. At present, I'm at the chapter where he talks about immigration, multiculturalism and religious pluralism and he draws a distinct contrast between the American way of handling these issues and the European way.

The American way of dealing with these issues is to err on the side of the individual--so if someone wants to wear the veil here, there should be no law prohibiting it nor should that person have to fear social sanction regardless of their reasons for wearing the veil. In Europe the tendency is to err on the side of social cohesion--thus France's ban on the veil or the Dutch ban on minarets, etc. One interesting thing that the author points out is that Americans have a very *different* view of immigration than most Europeans because while both America and Europe have a liberal intellectual tradition, the latter does *not* have a body of liberal thought applied to the question of immigration while Americans do.


Cheers
Aj

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Interesting that this discussion is happening now. I'm currently listening to an audiobook recording of "The Future of Liberalism" by Alan Wolfe. In the book he calls liberals back to a form of 'classical' liberalism with a focus on individual rights.
Cheers
Aj

Something else for my reading list....thanks Aj

[Rook]

Actually...
In the U.S., there's a few states that Mandate I.D. w/o any head coverings at all, regardless of Religious affiliation..
Muslims, Sikh's, catholics, Jews are disputing this..
Passports permit head coverings, why not state I.D.?

http://islam.about.com/od/dress/f/hijab_id.htm

In Most airports in the U.S., the only procedure a muslim lady doesn't receive is a Cavity check..
I'll happily describe my experiences with Airlines, post- 9/11...My brothers as well...pvt. only.
In Puerto Rico however, once I said I refused to allow a Man touching me in any way, they accommodated me, with a woman..lol {should be Policy, especially if the woman's muttaqun {Pious}}

[Hack]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am glad that it's not illegal to wear any of the above and that women can do as they choose in this country. The fights over this in Belgium, France, and Italy make me grateful for our constitution. i do not believe the Europeans when they argue that it is a public safety concern.

Personally, i do not want to see women veiled. i do not like it. But i do not live these women's lives.

What i have done in the past is give money to organizations that support freedom for women in regions where it seems like there is little. i have given money to an organization that builds schools for girls, and i used to contribute to a group that outfitted girls' soccer teams in North Africa.

I follow European politics as sort of a hobby since visiting there a year ago. I had many interesting discussions with native Dutch people about their immigration issues with Muslims. The entire head covering issue is a hot button in the Netherlands, as well...and it really makes the Dutch uncomfortable to discuss it since they pride themselves on their tolerance. The most popular politician in the Netherlands right now just published his "manifesto," and this is one of the top issues. I am always fascinated with how the western European countries say they are "integrating" their immigrants, but are really doing anything but. I viewed many of the policies in the Netherlands to be separatist -- on both sides.

Here in Michigan, we have a very large Middle Eastern community, mostly Iraqi Chaldeans. Many of the high schools in the Detroit area have made accommodations for girls in gym classes and on athletic teams to allow for compliance with their beliefs (not requiring them to wear shorts and to be able to keep their head coverings on).

Jake

[Rook]

Originally Posted by Hack

Here in Michigan, we have a very large Middle Eastern community, mostly Iraqi Chaldeans. Many of the high schools in the Detroit area have made accommodations for girls in gym classes and on athletic teams to allow for compliance with their beliefs (not requiring them to wear shorts and to be able to keep their head coverings on).

Jake

Last I was told, Michigan actually has the largest muslim community in North America, rivaling New York...
Dearborn, in particular..With a very big Mosque to follow suit.
My curiosity will eventually get the better part of me...