The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.

I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations.

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

But what about when we have a really bad day and break the rules. We know that our intentions are pure, but what if the "membership" feels threatened?

I say, on those days, we need a pass.

Do the TOS needs to be changed? No.

But I like the way the owners and mods try to take a variety of things into account when moderating and giving time outs.

Is the difference how many people feel threatened? How bad the infraction is? Like is a sin and sin, or are there different levels?

[Gayla]

Do we really need to quantify it? I know when I cross the line and I imagine most everyone else does, also.

I had a conversation with a friend once about "breaking the rules" and she said her decision as to whether or not to break them was based on the consequences. If she was just going to be in a little bit of trouble then she often would decide to do something she knew she wasn't supposed to do. Of course, we were also talking about things we did as teenagers, not things we did as adults.

I think, in this context, it's not about how much is "ok" because, frankly, if you are cognitively aware of the line and intentionally choose to push right up to it and maybe poke a toe over, then, in my opinion, you don't get any pass at all.

However, if you truly aren't aware there is a line, then the admin/mods will step in and help with the situation.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

But what about when we have a really bad day and break the rules. We know that our intentions are pure, but what if the "membership" feels threatened?

I say, on those days, we need a pass.

Do the TOS needs to be changed? No.

But I like the way the owners and mods try to take a variety of things into account when moderating and giving time outs.

Is the difference how many people feel threatened? How bad the infraction is? Like is a sin and sin, or are there different levels?

I think everyone has bad days. Frankly? Mine was yesterday. I was subsequently moderated.

I don't think it's a pass for the admins/mods to take into consideration all factors involved. I see it pan out in a very fair and equitable manner across the board.

When it becomes a pass is when the behaviors are repeated over and over and no matter how many times the admin/mods take the time out to work with said person? they still keep on doing the same shit over and over.

Threatened = Sexually inappropriate. Harassment. PM's that are clearly threatening.

We as a membership should probably always take the opportunity to apologize behind the scenes and if possible? Work it out. I think we do a great job of that.

I hope this post had some sense of meaning. My neurons are so not transmitting today.

[Rockinonahigh]

I dont know anythig about a pass...never had one.Mom said deffness isnt a reason for a pass,just get up and do more than the rest,in thery thats ok but has its own probs in the doing more than the rest cause the rest think u are bing a snot and trying to up stage them.Never had special ed either,dont do sign but do read lips pretty good.My hearing has gotten worse over the years and I have total fade outs wich are really weired when it happends its like watching silent movies..real strange feeling to be shure.All this thing in the main stream life have been dificult at best,did it make me stronger..yeah in one reguad but it did make me angry that "normal" what ever that is has so many priviledges for just being normal.The non discrimanton act is suposed to helps su that need it but imho..dosent do squat when u need it..I know been there dont that.

[Rockinonahigh]

The last post last line should read....Been there done that...sorry typo.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, everyone --

We really need to get this thread back on topic and stop discussing personal issues that have already been moderated.

No one *has* to go to anyone for support regarding DA issues of any kind. You are all free to seek peer group support here in whatever way feels comfortable for you.

If you have additional questions or concerns about the process we have in place, please send them via PM directly to the site Admin.

As a reminder: This thread and other support threads are not intended, nor are they able to take the place of actual counseling or therapy, they are intended as peer discussions only and participating in them is purely voluntary. Because this is a public website on the internet, there can be no assurance that anyone or everyone will necessarily feel safe at any time.
Thanks,
--June (Moderator Voice)

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.
I am one of them. I think that capacity matters. I have read this entire thread. I have yet to see how capacity doesn't factor in. I am reading you as saying that everyone can get it. I just don't see how that's true when people clearly cannot, even some people who claim to get it don't.

I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations. Why? Because you do? Because I do? "In general" is a broad brush, but it doesn't include those without the capacity to even realize that they are not meeting the expectations. If they believe they are clarifying and someone else calls that harassment - does the person claiming harassment automatically win their case? If people see a history of posts, pm's, email, facebook interactions and knows how a person communicates - is that disregarded because someone else has already figured out what's really going on? Or even four people think so? What is the magic number and how many posts, pm's or emails does it take to be qualified as not getting it?

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

But it's not safe. It's the internet. Which is why I assume June posted what she did above that I highlighted. As the old saying goes "If you don't want to be read, don't publish a book."

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think everyone has bad days. Frankly? Mine was yesterday. I was subsequently moderated.

Yet, you weren't called out on the carpet and demanded by a group of people and their friends to explain yourself. I've seen that happen. It happened to me at a time when I was struggling with significant brain swelling, powerful steriods and serious pain meds. I've even seen people start threads to do it! Sometimes it can feel like a popularity/witch hunt to me when it comes to who gets a pass or how it's doled out.

I don't think it's a pass for the admins/mods to take into consideration all factors involved. I see it pan out in a very fair and equitable manner across the board.

When it becomes a pass is when the behaviors are repeated over and over and no matter how many times the admin/mods take the time out to work with said person? they still keep on doing the same shit over and over.

I get this strange feeling that we are talking about a certain thing here that everyone isn't supposed to be talking about yet everyone does and then says they aren't which is rather Dr. Seussville like.

Threatened = Sexually inappropriate. Harassment. PM's that are clearly threatening.

If they were ignoring the person can the PMs still be received? If the PMs aren't received is it still harassment? If any person offends another person they always have the option of ignoring them. If someone is cute and the other person is actually interested it isn't read as threatening. How one might start dating? I have sent some pm's to people I liked and let them know, but I'm adorable so everyone is flattered. I don't know what it's like for other people who aren't adorable or not read as being as awesome as I consider myself to be. What if the person who is offended has a history of being offended/and or making all kinds of assumptions? Do they get a pass for being offended all the time? At what point does groupthink come into play if it does at all?

We as a membership should probably always take the opportunity to apologize behind the scenes and if possible? Work it out. I think we do a great job of that.

It's a nice thought but even that requires the ability to be sincere and not everyone has that. Some people are just hostile by nature or my personal favorite - passive aggressive. Some people can only work things out with people who agree with them and others have no desire communicate with people at all behind the scenes especially if the nastiness occurred in public.

I hope this post had some sense of meaning. My neurons are so not transmitting today.

Mine either!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Yup, I agree!! And am just plain thankful for this!

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.



In thinking about this, honestly, here and in real-time, I believe DA people take responsibility for their actions. Sometimes, I am not so sure about compassion from abled bodied/minded people, sometimes. Mainly, I feel this way when with a couple of close friends one of which is very physically challenged, the other, having invisible ability challenges (mainly emotional).

It does seem to me that the Planet has a stronger consciousness around DA overall. So, the work around this is showing up, I think. I know... just my opinion...

Personally, I don't know if ignoring some of these behaviors is respectful to someone, really. It feels like dismissal to me and enabling responses. Thinking about how difficult it can be for DA people to just put themselves out there on the site with the added difficulty of just having printed words to communicate with and this ignoring could just add to their isolation in many ways.

Compassion for me includes respect for someone's ability to get appropriate social cues and common courtesy even when they just might need to hear suggestions more than once, or stated differently. I am thinking of times when I have had a light-bulb go off because of how someone else framed something and it was really the same information that others may have been trying to get me to understand. If they just wrote me off as She will never get it, I would be being dismissed and obviously being viewed as incapable via usual and customary standards that often just don't apply to DA people.



I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations.


Yup- and what I said above....

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

Yes! We can! It takes all of us, but, the site feels like a much safer place to me, overall. And I can take quite a bit of what is being presented here into real-time which I think will help in many of my relationships. Hey, a 2-fer-1!!

[SuperFemme]

Adorable thanks for your post.
I think June and I are speaking to different things re: safety.
This IS the internet and it's all out there for everyone to see. Forever.
BUT, POC have a right to feel safe (i.e., not seeing racism in thread after thread). I think the site has done a great job re. that kind of safety.
Women have a right not to endure sexual harassment, being unwillingly objectified. I think the site does a great job of that too.
DA'd people have a right to not be treated as second class citizens. I think again, that the site does a great job. They also do a great job of working with everyone based on their limitations.

I also agree about capacity. Again, there is some hard work going on behind the scenes to accommodate different levels of capacity.

As for rising to the level of expectations? I believe that because I've seen it happen over and over again. In occupational therapy, where if not pushed some of us wouldn't have ever talked, walked, or learned to swallow again. In brain injury rehab for two years? I saw it every single day. Most memorable were the complete 180's some did. One person didn't want to do the work, and was quite happy being miserable. So the teachers set the bar higher. Three of those students secretly became passionate about "doing the work" and rose from their wheel chairs to walk for graduation. Breathtaking.

I'm NOT talking about anything in particular. Not at all. This is very general.

I wonder, how in the world we gauge who is appropriately offended? That sounds presumptive to me, and I am unsure there is fairness in attempting to do so. Not that I am set in stone one way or another, just not sure about putting the burden on a person who is being harassed, stalked, or threatened.

I know there is no one right answer, I wasn't meaning to give the impression that there was.

I just choose to have faith in mankind and believe that people are coming from a good place.

I am also aware that this site is not easy to navigate, and that if someone has the capacity to do so, then it is not a huge expectation to require people to follow the TOS. The range of how that is achieved is going to look very different for a DA'd person than it is for somebody who is not DA'd. Never the less it would be giving a false sense of "being above the law" to a DA'd person to NOT require following the TOS. Offline? One must obey the rules. If one can only walk? Then it is pretty important to know the laws. Not doing so can result in severe consequences, even death. One must pay for things at the store, or face a jail sentence. One must follow the rules if one takes public transportation that is specifically for DA'd persons, or one can find themselves banned from using that service.

The public in general is uncomfortable with DA'd people. I have so many awful stories...like having a grand mal seizure and coming to with a gun in my face. Security guard was convinced the seizure was either a) demonic or b) the result of a drug overdose. I cannot tell you how terrifying that was. I have had police called on me for all sorts of reasons pertaining to my different ability. It can truly be miserable sometimes.

I don't want anyone to go after a DA'd person. It is my dream that we will act accordingly. I didn't mean to leave the impression that there should be a no tolerance policy for DA'd people. That is not at all what I am discussing.

I'm sorry your brain was swelling. Been there, done that and it sucks. Big.
Random thought, I know. I just have lived with it and understand what it can do.

[Apocalipstic]

If someone is dangerous why are they still here?

Otherwise who is to say that AS people even want to change or should to make things easier for others?

I try to learn from experiences and to appogize a lot and thank people for their help, not everyone feels that way. Many deaf people do not want to hear...Autistic people can like their way of being. I am sure there are other examples as well.

People who don't take their medicine so they can be more artistic?

Do we give them passes? I think it is important that we do.

Not everyone can increase their capacity, or even wants to.

I think Liam's? suggestion of a buddy system in the most severe cases, if there is someone who wants to help and everyone is agreeable.

[Soft*Silver]

On another site, I acted as a "buddy" for someone who had very poor social skills, could not read or chose not to read social cues and was sexually inappropriate to the point of making people so uncomfortable they considered calling in the police. I offered to be their buddy to help them not get kicked off the site.

I was SO stupid!

What I found out after awhile was this was much larger than what was being presented, and all that was being presented as DA wasnt necessarily DA. At least not in the diagnosis given. (There has to be some reason for someone created that much drama and crisis to get attention. )

I stepped back and took a good look at the interaction of this person with everyone. There was a definite pattern. I did an intervention online with this person and basically became a target of theirs afterwards. But at least I was out of their loop of frenzy...

The reason I bring this up, is that by attempting to help someone socialize in a group setting, by offering a buddy to help out, makes the buddy responsible (and thus the admins and mods as well as the "buddy") and if this person who is aided escalates or becomes confrontational or hostile to the cueing, and decides to act out and harms someone, the buddy and admins and mods will be set up for liability since they took the responsibility.

I realized after my personal experience just how scared I should have been. Sometimes, what you see online is only the tip of the ice burg....

and also, people hide diagnosis ...and some will self-assign diagnosis without therapeutic assignment. Just because it quacks like a duck doesnt mean its not a chicken in duck's feathers...

I like the idea of an ambassador where someone can GO to the ambassador if they need help

but I am really opposed to a Buddy goes to them and walks them thru their postings and interactions and watches out for their inappropriate behaviors. Makes me very uneasy...

[Apocalipstic]

So sorry this happened to you. You make a good point that there are on line predators.

You know, that does make sense, if someone refuses to use the ignore button, then why would they listen to someone supposed to help them.

We need to be very careful who we give our phone numbers to. Very careful.

Originally Posted by softness

On another site, I acted as a "buddy" for someone who had very poor social skills, could not read or chose not to read social cues and was sexually inappropriate to the point of making people so uncomfortable they considered calling in the police. I offered to be their buddy to help them not get kicked off the site.

I was SO stupid!

What I found out after awhile was this was much larger than what was being presented, and all that was being presented as DA wasnt necessarily DA. At least not in the diagnosis given. (There has to be some reason for someone created that much drama and crisis to get attention. )

I stepped back and took a good look at the interaction of this person with everyone. There was a definite pattern. I did an intervention online with this person and basically became a target of theirs afterwards. But at least I was out of their loop of frenzy...

The reason I bring this up, is that by attempting to help someone socialize in a group setting, by offering a buddy to help out, makes the buddy responsible (and thus the admins and mods as well as the "buddy") and if this person who is aided escalates or becomes confrontational or hostile to the cueing, and decides to act out and harms someone, the buddy and admins and mods will be set up for liability since they took the responsibility.

I realized after my personal experience just how scared I should have been. Sometimes, what you see online is only the tip of the ice burg....

and also, people hide diagnosis ...and some will self-assign diagnosis without therapeutic assignment. Just because it quacks like a duck doesnt mean its not a chicken in duck's feathers...

I like the idea of an ambassador where someone can GO to the ambassador if they need help

but I am really opposed to a Buddy goes to them and walks them thru their postings and interactions and watches out for their inappropriate behaviors. Makes me very uneasy...

[Soft*Silver]

and your addresses, and work place names and towns, and your personal emails...

online predators arent always child molesters. Sometimes they are people who like to create chaos..it serves as a way of feeling in control. If they are the one creating the chaos, then they can affect its pace and direction. And this chaos is attention serving. They also "groom" their victims just like a child molester grooms his victims. Bonding, isolating, splitting behaviors (he said this about you, so he isnt my friend anymore..you are!) creating a codependency between you and them, stroking your ego (I fell for this and ashamedly, I admit it. Taught me a valuable lesson), etc. Once groomed, you are invested with someone who is a master/mistress of manipulation. And yes, they ARE DA...but as others have said, none of us are acting as therapists or social workers on this site. And this level of behavior can exceed appropriate behavior for ANYONE on this site..

these kind of folks are rarer than a albino zebra. But they are around, and I did find one on another site. I had to take a good hard look at why I fell for this. And it was ego based. (Working hard on that now.) 99.9% of the people you meet online will not be anything like this. But .01% will be.

I have learned not to give out too much information too soon.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

So sorry this happened to you. You make a good point that there are on line predators.

You know, that does make sense, if someone refuses to use the ignore button, then why would they listen to someone supposed to help them.

We need to be very careful who we give our phone numbers to. Very careful.

[SuperFemme]

I would like to reiterate this: Nobody is being asked to change. Or to "grow their capacity". I want that to be very clear. Asking people to work with the capacity that they already have is not asking anyone to change. It is not asking people to suddenly have a greater capacity. Simply to work with what you've got.

Also, I would like to once more be super clear about what the "Mythical Pass" is that I am referring to. Because I feel that the definition keeps getting lost.
Mythical Pass = not requiring a differently abled person to follow the rules.

A pass is NOT about giving somebody leeway. Not about choosing to act/interact with a person when concerns come up. Not about abandoning the empathy & compassion with which the admin/owner treat everyone with. Not a witch hunt. Not about advocating (or not) for another member.

I *hear* the AS members and their concerns. There is no agenda, and nobody is complaining about you. Nor asking you to change. I feel like this pass issue has struck a chord that is not positive.

I am also not demanding people come to me for anything. I *am* here should anyone choose to do that, but please, feel free to look to your peers or whomever it may be that can be of assistance. Hell go right to the mods/admins if you have an issue. But please? Don't not go to anyone. If something is not addressed, it can not be changed.

Softness? I wanted to thank you for sharing your experience, that was really valuable information. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
But? It sounds like you have done the hard work around it and that it won't easily happen again. That is success.

Anyone that does feel ok about coming to me? Pls know that you can do so for any number of reasons. My goal is to make sure that the site is aware of any changes needed, and that we have proper outreach to differently abled members.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;157752]I would like to reiterate this: Nobody is being asked to change. Or to "grow their capacity". I want that to be very clear. Asking people to work with the capacity that they already have is not asking anyone to change. It is not asking people to suddenly have a greater capacity. Simply to work with what you've got.

Also, I would like to once more be super clear about what the "Mythical Pass" is that I am referring to. Because I feel that the definition keeps getting lost.
Mythical Pass = not requiring a differently abled person to follow the rules.

A pass is NOT about giving somebody leeway. N''ot about choosing to act/interact with a person when concerns come up. Not about abandoning the empathy & compassion with which the admin/owner treat everyone with. Not a witch hunt. Not about advocating (or not) for another member.

I *hear* the AS members and their concerns. There is no agenda, and nobody is complaining about you. Nor asking you to change. I feel like this pass issue has struck a chord that is not positive.

SuperFemme,

i was thinking about something-

when you write that the 'definition keeps getting lost' and/or the pass issue has 'struck a negative chord' - i'm wondering if it's because there are other DA people in this thread, and not everyone will see things the way you see/comprehend them?

i probably will not/cannot process exactly the same as another aspie- but we may have a better understanding of things we try to communicate between ourselves, due to at least, some of the AT wiring. maybe i have the most reasons/times for editing [smile].

does this make sense?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by softness

and your addresses, and work place names and towns, and your personal emails...

online predators arent always child molesters. Sometimes they are people who like to create chaos..it serves as a way of feeling in control. If they are the one creating the chaos, then they can affect its pace and direction. And this chaos is attention serving. They also "groom" their victims just like a child molester grooms his victims. Bonding, isolating, splitting behaviors (he said this about you, so he isnt my friend anymore..you are!) creating a codependency between you and them, stroking your ego (I fell for this and ashamedly, I admit it. Taught me a valuable lesson), etc. Once groomed, you are invested with someone who is a master/mistress of manipulation. And yes, they ARE DA...but as others have said, none of us are acting as therapists or social workers on this site. And this level of behavior can exceed appropriate behavior for ANYONE on this site..

these kind of folks are rarer than a albino zebra. But they are around, and I did find one on another site. I had to take a good hard look at why I fell for this. And it was ego based. (Working hard on that now.) 99.9% of the people you meet online will not be anything like this. But .01% will be.

I have learned not to give out too much information too soon.

Good advise!

Unfortunately, that very, very samall percentage does exist and adults can certainly be taken advantaged of (or manipulated) by these people and targeted. No, don't give out to much information, too soon. Nothing wrong with caution.

[Apocalipstic]

I do think that is someone wanted to help and be a buddy it should be someone of the same gender. I think wayyy less confusion would happen that way.

and

Don't give out your phone numbers and adresses to anyone!

[Soft*Silver]

I think gender has little to do with it.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I do think that is someone wanted to help and be a buddy it should be someone of the same gender. I think wayyy less confusion would happen that way.

and

Don't give out your phone numbers and adresses to anyone!

what is your line of thinking on this?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

what is your line of thinking on this?

Liam suggested it and I think if it is something he wants to do, it might be cool. I really have no idea how it would work, but admire him for suggesting it.

I am not really stable enough mood and time wise on a day to day basis to do somethting like this myself and honestly, do not have the patience. If I made good suggestions and the person refused to make any changes, I would be DONE. Laugh! I would be a nagging freak. Plus, I don't always say the right things myself.

I do also think it is important to know predators are out there and to be very very careful like Softness said. I thought maybe if the person needing help was a guy, having a guy buddy would keep anyone from getting any "ideas" as it were, or same if it's a Femme or Butch. But if the person is really a predator with nothing wrong with them (and they are out there) then no amount of Buddy is going to help.

So, to sumarize....
I could not do it
and it depends on the person, if something is ACTUALLY wrong with them and are they the type to accept help.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Liam suggested it and I think if it is something he wants to do, it might be cool. I really have no idea how it would work, but admire him for suggesting it.

I am not really stable enough mood and time wise on a day to day basis to do somethting like this myself and honestly, do not have the patience. If I made good suggestions and the person refused to make any changes, I would be DONE. Laugh! I would be a nagging freak. Plus, I don't always say the right things myself.

I do also think it is important to know predators are out there and to be very very careful like Softness said. I thought maybe if the person needing help was a guy, having a guy buddy would keep anyone from getting any "ideas" as it were, or same
if it's a Femme or Butch. But if the person is really a predator with nothing wrong with them (and they are out there) then no amount of Buddy is going to help.

So, to sumarize....
I could not do it
and it depends on the person, if something is ACTUALLY wrong with them and are they the type to accept help.

what is "it" that liam suggested?
was it in this thread, or somewhere else?
the only suggestion i can find by Liam is to put people on ignore.

what am i missing? (its making me question my sanity, not yours)

i totally support a buddy system in any capacity, but think it is a myth that femmes and butches/transfolk cannot have a relationship that isn't sexual.

i would hope that anyone being harassed by or otherwise affected by a predator would remember to use the report system, or pm a mod or admin.