Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[Pretty Woman]

Thanks and for your note. It would have been fantastic to have the support (not a one of the folks stood up to it with the exception of me...known to push back here for sure).
The title of the thread was directed to Femmes only to assist on the subject, but yes it seems that we femmes most often want to discuss sex acts amongst ourselves and then become quite chatty on a variety of topics once the butches and trans men show up.
Just to say a little more about my experience there (can you tell that it still pisses me off?)
It would have been totally cool with me if the femmes that jumped down my throat would have instead asked the OP if she thought it was ok for butches to join in the discussion, but instead they chose to attack me for questioning the appearance of a butch in a thread that was directed toward femmes.
I went back to the thread just to see how it was going a few days later (read but not post) and all sorts of butches had joined into the fun...mostly describing what femmes should do to make ourselves more comfortable with an early dildo experience.
Honestly, the whole thing was disgusting.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am glad I was not there to witness (read: get banned) this.

It is a shame that everyone is reduced to sex acts while waiting for a butch or trans guy to show up isn't it?

Conversely, I understand that somebody thought that they were joining in on the spirit of the thread, but it IS disheartening.

[evolveme]

I can’t say that I’ve ever personally witnessed a global (for lack of a better word) insertion of deliberate discord among butches/transguys by femmes or feminine women. What I have witnessed is a kind of dissension taking place amongst butches and transguys surrounding the circumstance at the center of which was a femme. I do not believe the femme was the problem so much as the underlying competition. And I think that competition, being what it is, is a natural impulse centered in our evolutionary instincts. Certainly the conditions of patriarchy make our competitive behaviors quite vicious and self-defeating at times, but as I’ve argued before (to crickets, but wth) patriarchy may well be a condition of the evolutionary impulse.

I’ll provide an example: For me, to use the wrong gender reference for someone is an act of aggression and I will not do it, regardless of my personal feelings about the individual in question. I’m not saying I’ve never done it, but in the years since I started dumping out the knapsack and looking the contents over, I simply refrain. Still, and in spite of the ardent activists I’ve known, I have repeatedly witnessed certain butches/transguys utilize incorrect gender references out of cruelty and in times of frustration.

Back to competition: in spite of the fact that we’re predominantly queer and our partnerings are unlikely to affect population rates toward the surplus, our survival instinct compels us to seek a mate. In every species, this process is the underlying play of its adult groups. And through this process, competition is born. In fact, it’s necessary. We might have the iPhone 4.0 and quantum computing and Bill Maher and personal politics and Julie Marie Wade but we are stupid to think that 2.5 million years of evolution* doesn’t daily inform our interactions with one another (even when we think we’re being smooth). Now I think that for the most part, our evolution has moved away from the domain of the body and into the domain of the brain (at least I’m hopeful), and so maybe it’s true that our choices affect our future. Like, if you refuse to participate in the personal shit storm, you’re doing your own small part to evolve the race.

*just since Homo

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

Thanks and for your note. It would have been fantastic to have the support (not a one of the folks stood up to it with the exception of me...known to push back here for sure).
The title of the thread was directed to Femmes only to assist on the subject, but yes it seems that we femmes most often want to discuss sex acts amongst ourselves and then become quite chatty on a variety of topics once the butches and trans men show up.
Just to say a little more about my experience there (can you tell that it still pisses me off?)
It would have been totally cool with me if the femmes that jumped down my throat would have instead asked the OP if she thought it was ok for butches to join in the discussion, but instead they chose to attack me for questioning the appearance of a butch in a thread that was directed toward femmes.
I went back to the thread just to see how it was going a few days later (read but not post) and all sorts of butches had joined into the fun...mostly describing what femmes should do to make ourselves more comfortable with an early dildo experience.
Honestly, the whole thing was disgusting.

PrettyWoman? I am sorry that you had that experience. I have no idea how a butch and speak to a Femme strapping for the first time. Rather, I have no idea how ANYONE can speak to it. It is such a vastly personal experience.

Maybe we should start a thread here in the Femme Zone about it and see what happens? I would hope it could be a different experience?

[The_Lady_Snow]

e are you saying butches and transguys are the ones perpetuating this issue?

I am getting caught up with the word competition...

<scratching head like a monkey>

I am a lil confused

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

e are you saying butches and transguys are the ones perpetuating this issue?

I am getting caught up with the word competition...

<scratching head like a monkey>

I am a lil confused

Actually, yes. Except not consciously, which is important to remember. It occurs in the same way that a good deal of the tension among feminine women (like-among-like) is about underlying competition. It's a theory of evolution, anyway.

And again, it's exacerbated by the conditions of patriarchy, which are quite negative (obviously) and not conducive to the more positive features of informal in-group dynamics (team building, support systems, community-building, etc.).

ETA: Obviously, the same tensions occur among populations of queers for which gender variations/presentations are not so obvious, e.g. gay men and uniformly lesbian women. Competition among and within a group for which attraction and mating is also widely characterized is not as easily parsed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Actually, yes. Except not consciously, which is important to remember. It occurs in the same way that a good deal of the tension among feminine women (like-among-like) is about underlying competition. It's a theory of evolution, anyway.

And again, it's exacerbated by the conditions of patriarchy, which are quite negative (obviously) and not conducive to the more positive features of informal in-group dynamics (team building, support systems, community-building, etc.).

I get it and I don't. Here is why.

I am not competitive when it comes to partnering up. I am good on my own, I don't have issues getting some or dating. So for *me* that head space does not exist.

I can see how it can play in to all this.

I also have to disagree that it is a butch transguy issue, and this is just my opinion.

We have the power to stop it if we want, or to watch the chest bumping when it comes down to us as future *mates*

So yeah I don't get it and I do cause I don't roll that way.

[Martina]

i think the fact that people hook up out of a community adds dynamics to it that can lead to drama, but that is not necessarily because of competition for resources. It's the added energy. Even the sweet and healthy posturing for attention can get to me at times, but that's my problem. This is a place where people hunt. i don't hunt here, or i haven't. But friends of mine do. And i think that's great. But, yes, it does change the nature of the exchanges.

In r/t butch-femme and (for me) lesbian communities, i see some of that. i have walked up to talk to a butch and seen the femme clutch her partner's arm. But that's not something that i think colors the entire community.

Is the sexual energy strong in our community? Yes. That's one thing i like about it. Does competition for mates cause a lot of the drama? i don't think so.

I am not sure what creates so much drama. Some of it here, i believe, is the medium -- the internet. Also we are a diverse group, and a few people want to feel more "at home" here or in r/t butch-femme than it turns out is always possible. i think that leads to frustrations and disappointments. And there is the normal drama of break-ups, etc.

Because i do not hunt here or even in r/t butch-femme (i hunt in the leather community), i do not encounter much femme jealousy. Some. It always shocks me, and there seems to be no way to defend yourself against it. But those folks are sad. They can't be having the best time. And most of the b-f community members i meet in the world are having a really good time. That's another thing i like about us.

Now I think that for the most part, our evolution has moved away from the domain of the body and into the domain of the brain (at least I’m hopeful), and so maybe it’s true that our choices affect our future. Like, if you refuse to participate in the personal shit storm, you’re doing your own small part to evolve the race.

Also, whatever behaviors people exhibit, unless they lead to greater reproductive success, they are not affecting evolution. It might affect how we all live our lives and what we teach our children -- our culture(s) -- but they are not affecting biological evolution.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by June

I don't know, Snowy. I kind of get it and have seen it. The whomevers out there that are always looking for "The Next Best Thing" who will make every attempt to discredit their Ex or assign blame without taking responsibility for any of their own actions in the relationships. Some of them will even project their own behavior onto others and infer or assign a deeper relationship or even an inappropriate one onto others. This is not Femme/Trans/Butch, masculine or feminine, this is, as has been noted, human behavior.

I've had it happen to me. Once I was telling someone how nice I thought their partner was for being so thoughtful towards me and I watched her face turn stone cold with anger over it, as though I was trying to make her jealous or steal her partner, instead of what was actually happening, which was that I was saying "Hey, you picked a good one there!". It was both sad and telling about the level of insecurity she had. Sidenote: I was also partnerned when it happened, so I wasn't even "Suspect by being single".

It's interesting to correlate this back to evolution and competition for food/mates/shelter and how that may affect our little microcosm, even though the majority of us are unable to create progeny together in the "usual" way.

Actually, it was your post, June, about not feeling responsible for the tensions among butches and transmen that inspired my thoughts. I don't feel responsible for those tensions either, and I don't think that any femme should, except when she has deliberately participated in a kind of negative in-group behavior that spurs intolerance and dissension. Perhaps we've all been party to this kind of thing at one time or another. Still, I think the basis - the foundational cause - for most intergroup tensions is competition and that it does have an evolutionary source. Like I mentioned, even though we are unlikely to add to the surplus in population, it is a benefit to our survival to mate, and ironically, to find and build community.

Snow, even while some of us overcome our more basic (and base) instincts (and I hear what you're saying definitely) some of the time, others have to consciously work to continue to do so (provided they ever select to do so). Not everyone has a competitive nature, sure, and not all people are given to behaving in ways that are derisive, but most people enact these behaviors at some point, and the larger question becomes not just one of the personality clash, or an inability to sort differences, but whether there is a deeper motivation for this need for establishing groups and even hierarchies.

I just happen to think there is.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Martina

Also, whatever behaviors people exhibit, unless they lead to greater reproductive success, they are not affecting evolution. It might affect how we all live our lives and what we teach our children -- our culture(s) -- but they are not affecting biological evolution.

It seems (and I could be misreading you) that your definition for evolution is that unless we are reproducing well (i.e., continuously and more?), we are not achieving the basis for a standard of evolution. My working definition is a framework that is larger than merely the propagation of the species -which I read only to be a continuation of the race - but an increase in the capacity of the human to function and to prosper, even if at reduced numbers. I'm unconcerned at this stage with biological evolution (although I think it would benefit the race to be done with wisdom teeth altogether). I agree that how we live our lives, what we teach our children, and questions of culture, are quite important to evolution.

Still, most of us scream and leap into a chair at the sight of a spider, and hardly ever at the sight of a moving automobile, which is much, much more likely to kill us. I hardly think we can intellectually do away with the evolutionary drives (like the competition for a mate) just because we find them unpalatable, or simply exhausting to think about.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you June for going into more detail!!!

ms e I still do not agree and I am ok with it as I am sure you are. that for you it is not a femme influence that adds tar to the mixture. We can be catty, divisive, mean and dismissive towards each other especially when hurt or rejected. I know this is not exclusive to just femme, *I* chose to open it up for us femme's to talk about so that Atllasthome's thread could continue in friendship building.

Let's be honest, we have a tendency to disrupt threads with the whole in that sweet magnolia voice saying

"I love you guys and I think you are all great"

giggle wink wink tee hee

and yes I also know that butches do it to femme's but my intent was for us (femmes) to be transparent and open about our shit.

I thought the convo could be had maybe it can maybe we can't.

I hope I am making sense. I am not as evolved in language like most of you are and I thank you for your patience.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by June

Okay. Snowy, yes there is weird "Cheerleading" that goes on and also, people going in and trying to spin stuff on behalf of others. But I don't see it as a Femme Thing. Even if I just look inside this community, I see it as a behavioral issue that crosses gender lines.

That is why, I still say that for me, it is not my responsibility to pave a special road between Transmen and Butches. If they can't get their own social skills together, how am I going to make that any better.

If I could force people to be friends, now that would be an exceptional Super Power, and I would abuse it mightily.

PS - Your communication skills are fine, we're just seeing things differently, and that's okay.

Gotcha!

So therefore what I have learned is this.

I should of worded it like Metropolis did...

Being a "Community" Ally

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1599

[Nat]

I don't think it's all competition. I think sometimes its empathy. And then there are a lot of people who want to side with the "winning team" and those who will always side with the "underdog" on an issue. And then, as stated far earlier, I have put my foot in it most when I'm feeling protective of somebody else because I perceive them as being ganged up on. It's very hard for me not to jump in there and get my hands dirty if I think somebody else is being unnecessarily hurt, but it just backfires, you know?

It's hard for me not to "cheerlead" for the underdog because it's so second-nature to me, but I have to not take sides. Or to take the femme side if I'm gonna take sides.

And from the femme side, I really thought it was great what Pretty Woman said about the stuff femmes perpetuate on other femmes. I especially feel this happens during discussions about butches and/or transguys to the point where the femmes on both sides drown out the actual people a situation is affecting directly. (I am guilty of participating in this)

Sometimes it feels like the pronoun issue (for example) really pits femme against femme because femmes come in to protect whomever from the evils of wrong pronoun choice and it seems like we can't even hear each other about our own varying perspectives as femmes without seeking to attack other femmes that aren't on board with our viewpoints.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Nat

I don't think it's all competition. I think sometimes its empathy. And then there are a lot of people who want to side with the "winning team" and those who will always side with the "underdog" on an issue. And then, as stated far earlier, I have put my foot in it most when I'm feeling protective of somebody else because I perceive them as being ganged up on. It's very hard for me not to jump in there and get my hands dirty if I think somebody else is being unnecessarily hurt, but it just backfires, you know?

It's hard for me not to "cheerlead" for the underdog because it's so second-nature to me, but I have to not take sides. Or to take the femme side if I'm gonna take sides.

And from the femme side, I really thought it was great what Pretty Woman said about the stuff femmes perpetuate on other femmes. I especially feel this happens during discussions about butches and/or transguys to the point where the femmes on both sides drown out the actual people a situation is affecting directly. (I am guilty of participating in this)

Sometimes it feels like the pronoun issue (for example) really pits femme against femme because femmes come in to protect whomever from the evils of wrong pronoun choice and it seems like we can't even hear each other about our own varying perspectives as femmes without seeking to attack other femmes that aren't on board with our viewpoints.

I read what you were saying here and immediately began to look for explanations in terms of the social sciences. Recently, in a tough conversation I was having with my best friend, she told me that I tend too often to intellectualize what isn't and asked me if this isn't a coping mechanism for something. (I've actually been accused of the intellectualizing thing a few times before, so I had to stop and consider her words seriously.) It may be that I'm distancing from emotions, but I know that I just happen to think in this way, so if you'll bear with me (or not):

Anyway, I'm rather a fan of the sciences, and the social sciences especially. I think that even if there is a reason for a behavior on an individual/personal level, there is a fairly large degree of possibility that it is correlating to another level of "cause." In other words, human action can be seen in quadrants of behavior from the independent, intentional level to the behavioral to the cultural and collective, and sometimes an action may unite on all levels, even while the individual conceives of themselves acting out of independent intention.

I guess if we're talking about what behaviors are counter productive, but which we see happening often, it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

Hi Pretty Woman

I was actually one of the femmes participating in that thread and remember that exchange well. For me, this is a classic example of how our different viewpoints impact what we read and how we read it.

While the butch's remarks were rather juvenile (and arguably insensitive), I certainly didn't read them as sexual in nature. If I remember it correctly, it was along the lines of "peeking in and just gonna sit quietly over here --->> ".

Your response to him read as incredibly harsh (to me). I remember thinking "oh good grief" when he posted....and "oh holy hell" when you did. To his credit, he immediately apologized. And no, I was not one of the femmes who posted to defend him, because I felt that he was perfectly capable of explaining, apologizing and exiting all on his own. When it all blew up, he apologized several times. To me, he made a mistake and he aplogized for it.

No, I don't think he needed femmes to defend him. But I also think it's possible that the harshness of your correction to him made some of those who care about him upset. He is a genuinely nice and caring person, and I think some of those who know that were offended.

I don't think that was a case of femmes attacking other femmes to defend a butch's feelings. I think that was a case of friends feeling like a friend had been unfairly browbeaten for an innocent mistake.

I agree with you though, that the thread quickly deteriorated after that. It was really a place for femmes to discuss a very sensitive and personal subject, and it turned into a mess.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I read what you were saying here and immediately began to look for explanations in terms of the social sciences. Recently, in a tough conversation I was having with my best friend, she told me that I tend too often to intellectualize what isn't and asked me if this isn't a coping mechanism for something. (I've actually been accused of the intellectualizing thing a few times before, so I had to stop and consider her words seriously.) It may be that I'm distancing from emotions, but I know that I just happen to think in this way, so if you'll bear with me (or not):

Anyway, I'm rather a fan of the sciences, and the social sciences especially. I think that even if there is a reason for a behavior on an individual/personal level, there is a fairly large degree of possibility that it is correlating to another level of "cause." In other words, human action can be seen in quadrants of behavior from the independent, intentional level to the behavioral to the cultural and collective, and sometimes an action may unite on all levels, even while the individual conceives of themselves acting out of independent intention.

I guess if we're talking about what behaviors are counter productive, but which we see happening often, it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons.

I am not at all in disagreement with your looking at these things from this perspective - I actually tend to get really excited when people start talking the way you're talking. I guess I think of human beings as pack animals like other primates. I don't know nearly enough about primate pack behavior, but I do think different people have different roles and functions within the given pack. Though I am not wholly satisfied with the ennagram, it's one of those systems I think about a lot when it comes to how humans relate and why. I do think there are kind of built-in pack behaviors that fall somewhere between "we all act this way for the exact same reason" and "we are all special individualist snowflakes acting for reasons entirely unique to ourselves."

Hmm I think I misread this statement: "it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons"

I read it as looking for the each root for each of the reasons, but now I think you are saying there is one root to all the reasons?

Maybe that root *is* competition - I definitely can't say you're wrong.

Going back to what I was saying about primate pack behavior -

I think pack behavior is a combination of herd behavior and hunting behavior. Herds (and schools of fish even) survive by rejecting the members that are different or hurt and by always trying to stay close to the center so they won't be picked off. (I'm not a scientist here, maybe I'm missing some steps).

Group-hunting requires more different roles within a group. You have to have the caretakers, you have the observant types, the aggressive types, the peacemaking types, the strong group-cohesion types, the industrious, the inventive, the single-minded, the balanced-minded, the perfectionists, and the people to say, "that's not going to work!", etc. Any one of those types can exhibit a behavior and it can be for a reason more specific to their type.

Empathy itself is not something universally experienced (from what I understand) but reactions to feelings of empathy are also various. Some people just want to get away from whatever is causing them to have an uncomfortable feeling, others attack, others seek to comfort, etc.

I don't know if I have a real working theory here, but I agree with you that for the most part we are as humans coded by evolution to create progeny and ensure that progeny's survival, so even though most of us in this community don't create progeny, I definitely think it makes sense that we are encoded as humans.

Where I feel like you and I might differ is what the very rootiest root part is to all those various behaviors. It very well may be competition, but I rub up against the need for group cohesion and the advantage of multiple roles and cooperation very quickly when I try to go down that route. If we were only competitive, wouldn't we have just killed each other off by now? Heh. I guess maybe there's a real competition between Hobbes' "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" idea of every person for theirself (pronoun ugh) and the idea that pack and social cooperation and cohesion are so innate to the species.

Hey - my googlefu tells me Hobbes at least gave 3 reasons for human conflict:

competition, diffidence and glory. The first maketh men invade for gain; the second, for safety; and the third, for reputation.

If I had to choose one of those reasons as the rootiest one, I might go first with safety. But it might competition is nice and would suffice.

I don't know if I've said anything at all here that makes sense, but I have this uncontrollable impulse to hit "Submit Reply" and get out of the quicksand I find myself in.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

I know what you're saying...and I totally agree with you. That shit drives me batty too.

To be clear, from my ME place...I don't have a problem with my partners talking to, flirting with, hamming it up with, whatevring with anyone else. I don't have a problem with people coming over to talk to my partners. That would be gross.

If my partner is done talking to you...I expect you to go away. If she has to tell you twice, I'm gonna have a problem. You'll get a third strike, and then ima say something.

And what I've noticed...and what drives me crazy is femmes (usually) have to repeat themselves a few times...but I only have to say something once. The first time is (usually) ignored. The second time a femme says something, she's (usually) giggled at or mocked or patted on the head. And yet, I only have to say something once. And this has happened with a number of femmes I've known who have been partners OR just friends. It happens with men and straight (or queer) women also.

I could give some examples if need be, but I'm definitely not talking about being a possessive freak. I'm talking about the way femme's boundaries are often trampled on (even if they're the loudest mouthed, toughest, alpha-y femme in the world...which most of my femme friends/partners tend to be), and they get patted on the head for being 'so cute' when they stick up for themselves.


Hope I'm Somewhat More Clear,
Dylan

[apretty]

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by apretty

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by apretty

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan