Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

I kind of think it sort of ties into the beginning of this thread cuz I think it affects how conversations go between butches and then men of the site, because it does change dynamics of conversations, and I think it leads to the 'save the femmes' placating that tends to happen in conversations...and then the slew of 'you are all so wonderful' fawning invasions that happen from both femmes and butches

"See this is why I love alllllllllllllll butches, cuz..."

"And that's why we love allllllllllllll femmes...cuz they just get us blah blah gag"



Dylan

[nycfem]

This made me think about how I have had at least one femme friend begin to refer (within the context of ranting about her ex) to that individual by his biological feminine name in discussing him with me, while during the relationship she referred to him by his masculine name of choice. At the time I didn't call her out on it because I gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps she wanted to refer to him with more formality and distance. But now reading this thread and reflecting on some of the issues, it becomes more clear to me that this kind of dissing really is always on some level about disrespecting gender presentation, and I don't want to participate in tolerating it, no matter if a friend is angry and ranting or not. This kind of deep disregard for someone's identity is never okay.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

[Jet]

well, considering i really don;t have anything in common with anybody, i don't think about building friendships. just speaking for myself.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Jet

well, considering i really don;t have anything in common with anybody, i don't think about building friendships. just speaking for myself.

Just a thought, but perhaps, if you were to build friendships, you'd come to discover that you have a lot more in common with others than you think you do?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone, since it is for both groups of people.

You assumed correctly. I just didn't want the thread to appear one, or any-sided. Plus, I was trying to get away from gender as the issue because I was trying to get to communication, friendship interaction and the differences between what we might experience online and off. Which, sure appears to be different and both the butches and transguys are doing a great job of showing this.

Whatever gender identification one has is a given in that thread, and not up for translation or discussion. It is who and what the person is, period. Talking about some of the issues as friends or perhaps political commrades is what that thread is really about.

LOL... I honestly wasn't going after much about the influence of femmes on us all, but, in reading this thread, I think it is a good idea. I have had some personal interactions dating in which a couple (meaning just 2) femmes were hell-bent on making the butch they really wanted (to which I said, you really are looking for someone else, and that is OK). But, there is no way I am going to put that in the context of all, or even most femmes. After all, I don't know all femmes. And others that I have dated did not do this at all.

Thanks for the thread, Snow and all. This is important for me as a butch to read.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by apretty

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares

I don't remember saying bubble invaders were any gender.

Also, I'm not just talking about someone 'standing too close to you at the grocery store' which is how I'm interpretting your interpretation of my words.


Dylan

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

[firie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My apologies for just getting to this my cousin died, my gfather is dying, SF is in the hospital, a kid turned 10, Grant keeps distracting me with unmarked flesh, and our Pride is this weekend...

Originally Posted by blush

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

Here was my intent, I thought it was going to be a good idea to have this here, a place where femme's could talk about it.

Here is why:

I love how we communicate.

I love how no matter how hard shit gets in our convos we do it and do it with passion.

I thought after watching a post go up in ALH's thread( having nothing to do with the convo) putting this thread here was a good idea.

I thought when I said we (femme's) could talk about it, it was not going to cast blame on one specific gender, I thought the space would be respected (post #2) obviously proved me wrong.

I thought well I don't care who participates cause by then (after post 2) the space was already different than my very well clear intent.

I thought we could learn from this I feel we have.

Originally Posted by firie

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

At this point Ms firie, this thread can stay full of butches, femme's trans guys, monkeys, snakes, or any other thing that gives valuable in put, or not. I learned something, and well I knew better.

Don't start a thread.

Stick to saving

It's just clearly simple, we are grown as folk, respect eachother's identifications, personal space, their boundaries..

This is shit we should of learned back in Kindergarden..

Once again I thought ATH's thread could be left to those particular community member so that some friendships can be built.

Privilege me?

*laughs*

Wanna hang out with me for a week? I am not all that privileged.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

See above posting to Ms blush Ms ArweN...

I honestly got all bleh, after having to defend my right to draw boundaries..

I mean if that isn't ironic I don't know what is...

[Dylan]

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

Hence why I made the post about Metropolis community thread, I chose the wrong wording, my intent wasn't clear, and the space I put this in.

I should of thought it thoroughly.

Though I do have to at this point, this far into the thread, it's an everyone voice and it's been working, or we can have Linus yet again put it elsewhere so everyone is happy.

I for one, am signing out for the day I have bigger issues.

[firie]

Snow,

I wasn't saying you were priviliged. No, I apologize if it seemed that way!

I am sorry you are dealing with so much, so I'll keep this short, as you are in our thoughts, as is Super Femme.

Thanks for responding, truly.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Sweet Baby Jeesus, I do this. Not often, thankfully, but I have done it in the past. I can't think of any recent times. Perhaps I'm growing up or maybe mellowing with the passing of another birthday.

I know that I am definitely protective of those I love and like a lot. I sometimes have to bite my tongue to not speak out in support of them. I try not to talk for another but if I see someone is not getting "it" and I do, then I may try to clarify. I'm getting better at doing this from my perspective, and that's definitely a good thing.

I've read the whole thread and everything I've wanted to touch on has already been highlighted, so I will try not to be redundant.

What I got out of something amiyesiam said was this: we all influence one another and I believe that to be true. One pebble, dropped into a pond, sends ripples all the way out to the farther edges of the water line on all sides.

One pebble. One person. One moment. One word.

One.

We are all connected and the sooner we realize it and figure out how to work with it, we can strengthen ourselves and our relationships with others.

Your pom poms are fine, beautiful. Just get better.

[AtLast]

I have had unfortunate situations in which a butch/trans friendships have been very stressed (and even lost) due to a butch/trans friend seeing a femme that doesn't care for me (I know, weird, huh- it happens).

On one hand, I get it in terms of the nature of relationships and what battles we all choose to fight or not with partners. On the other side, when I have been in this situation with a partner/someone I am dating, I am clear that my friends are my friends and I will be loyal to them. Of course, whenever we enter a relationship, there are shifts in time availability, etc. so usually there is a change in the time I spend with the friends I relate to outside of the relationship, but I don't cut them off.

I don't know if this is true for many butches/transmen, but I find it hard to make good friendships with other butches/transmen, often. So, when I do, it matters a lot to me.

There are issues I have run into with femme friends too when they start to see someone, but I think there are different variables at work there- and it isn't the topic of the thread.

To be honest, since I have joined the B-F dynamic fully (wasn’t so for many years), I have found thought that there is quite a bit of interference with friendships all the way around within the dynamic. It has not felt the same as it was in my more lesbian-only days or as a heterosexual in a couple or dating. Have no idea why this is so- and I in now ay know am generalizing about this- just speaking from my own experience. Jealousy has seemed to be much more prominent to me. None of this has felt good at all and I keep trying to figure it out. I am a boundary motivated person, always have been. I don’t cross them, especially romantically. Why? I have seen the adage “if she cheats with you, she will cheat on you” happen around me far too many times! No drama. please! Obviously, I am from the monogamous variety, not everyone is, so this could play out quite differently for other people.

I have never experienced a femme speaking for me as some posters have talked about. not even in the very long-term relationships I have been in. But, both of these women were fairly reserved, so that might have something to do with it. Although, both were good conversationalists and had huge knowledge bases to draw conversation from. Then there is just the usual kinds of things around how we all may feel more or less comfortable at certain gatherings, etc. and who we are around that influences how much we engage.

maybe I am not seeing things clearly, dunno.

[Nat]

I have been in a few situations where a person close to me did everything they could to isolate me from my friends and family. This was achieved in a variety of ways by a few different people and it was effective. One person actually lied about the behavior of those I was close to - and was a convincing liar! I only figured out how convincing that person was, when that person began lying about me to other people (also convincingly!) - which further isolated me (and freaked me out). Other more normal methods of isolating a partner just involve criticizing whomever that partner has as a friend or family member. If the person you're with keeps stating that whatever person is not a real friend or doesn't really care about you or *fill in the blank* and they seem like reasonable people, it can get to you after a while.

I guess I'm saying all this because my first impulse was to say that your butch and trans friends are responsible for their own behavior. But then I began thinking back on the times when I was in situations where I dropped friendships due to the influence of another person, and although it was ultimately my responsibility to stand up to the onslought and maintain my friendships better, there was a fair amount of emotional abuse I was dealing with as well which made me unfit for friendship and unable to discern what was actually true due to the gaslighting.

So I guess I think butches, femmes and transmen should all make it a point not to discourage a partner's friendships whether or not they themselves jibe with a particular friend. I think there's a difference when a person has a problem with only one of the person's friends or of that person is actively isolating that person from others - which is an abuse pattern.

I also saw my best friend's straight cisgender boyfriend completely drop his long-term friendship with another man because that guy was really rude to my friend.

Since you mentioned boundaries -

I stopped hanging out with a (straightish) friend since I've been in my current relationship because she asked me to kiss her and when I told her no, I'm in a monogamous relationship, she started crying and asked why we had never been in a relationship. She was drinking at the time, and I consider her a friend, but I also feel like I can't hang out with her anymore without violating my relationship.

When I was new to the bf dynamic, I made friends with a couple and ended up totally crushing out on one of them. I never did anything about it, never said anything to this person about it, never attempted to break them up, would in fact talk them up to each other as a rule, never made a pass, never stated my feelings until they had themselves been broken up for many months and the other party had moved on - i thought at the time that I maintained a boundary by acting as though it was only friendship that I felt - but I figured out that the amount of availability, deference, care toward that person (and the lack of those things toward that person's partner) was invasive of that relationship.

I decided after that, if I ever have feelings like that again for a friend and either of us are in a relationship, I will put distance between us until those feelings fade. When a person has feelings, it shows and it's different than being a friend even if you're doing only friend stuff with that person. I couldn't tell that at the time - I had never run into a situation like that before. In my straight friendships, there had never been a need for a boundary other than, "don't do anything physical with this person." But in the queer world, so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor. It's probably like that in the straight world too, but I just didn't have enough feelings about any of it for that to be a danger in my world back in my "straight" life.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

I have been in a few situations where a person close to me did everything they could to isolate me from my friends and family. This was achieved in a variety of ways by a few different people and it was effective. One person actually lied about the behavior of those I was close to - and was a convincing liar! I only figured out how convincing that person was, when that person began lying about me to other people (also convincingly!) - which further isolated me (and freaked me out). Other more normal methods of isolating a partner just involve criticizing whomever that partner has as a friend or family member. If the person you're with keeps stating that whatever person is not a real friend or doesn't really care about you or *fill in the blank* and they seem like reasonable people, it can get to you after a while.

I guess I'm saying all this because my first impulse was to say that your butch and trans friends are responsible for their own behavior. But then I began thinking back on the times when I was in situations where I dropped friendships due to the influence of another person, and although it was ultimately my responsibility to stand up to the onslought and maintain my friendships better, there was a fair amount of emotional abuse I was dealing with as well which made me unfit for friendship and unable to discern what was actually true due to the gaslighting.

So I guess I think butches, femmes and transmen should all make it a point not to discourage a partner's friendships whether or not they themselves jibe with a particular friend. I think there's a difference when a person has a problem with only one of the person's friends or of that person is actively isolating that person from others - which is an abuse pattern.

I also saw my best friend's straight cisgender boyfriend completely drop his long-term friendship with another man because that guy was really rude to my friend.

Since you mentioned boundaries -

I stopped hanging out with a (straightish) friend since I've been in my current relationship because she asked me to kiss her and when I told her no, I'm in a monogamous relationship, she started crying and asked why we had never been in a relationship. She was drinking at the time, and I consider her a friend, but I also feel like I can't hang out with her anymore without violating my relationship.

When I was new to the bf dynamic, I made friends with a couple and ended up totally crushing out on one of them. I never did anything about it, never said anything to this person about it, never attempted to break them up, would in fact talk them up to each other as a rule, never made a pass, never stated my feelings until they had themselves been broken up for many months and the other party had moved on - i thought at the time that I maintained a boundary by acting as though it was only friendship that I felt - but I figured out that the amount of availability, deference, care toward that person (and the lack of those things toward that person's partner) was invasive of that relationship.

I decided after that, if I ever have feelings like that again for a friend and either of us are in a relationship, I will put distance between us until those feelings fade. When a person has feelings, it shows and it's different than being a friend even if you're doing only friend stuff with that person. I couldn't tell that at the time - I had never run into a situation like that before. In my straight friendships, there had never been a need for a boundary other than, "don't do anything physical with this person." But in the queer world, so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor. It's probably like that in the straight world too, but I just didn't have enough feelings about any of it for that to be a danger in my world back in my "straight" life.

WOW, you speak to many layers I have struggled with and was trying to discern in my post. Some points that do help in trying to wade through these dynamics. Thanks.

I agree that at times, one does have to do some distancing if there are any "other than friend" feelings.

In the lesbian relationship I was in for 21 years (and began when I was 27), what you bring up- so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor- was something that happened between my partner and me that I never experienced in my straight relationships. It was very difficult to figure this out at the time and get her to see it. She believed that since she wasn't "doing anything" physical with another woman, that there was "no betrayal." It wasn't until we were in therapy together that she finally got this.

Yes, emotional abuse factors can be part of control issues in a relationship and isolating a partner. On the other hand, what I have felt mostly is simply what can happen when a friend couples with someone and there is just dislike between me and that person. Or, our personalities just don't jive- which happens. But, if that person engages in lying about me to others as a means to isolate me from a friend and even to destroy my reputation, that is over the top and a sign of instability and viciousness as far as I'm concerned.

Yikes... it is all quite complicated! I have learned through the years that true friends that are stable and possess an inward sense of justice and are not prone to narcissism in these matters do not listen to gossip (actually halt it) and actually end up distancing themselves from people that engage in it. And when I think about it, I don’t want friends that will gossip about people anyway!

[Nat]

There's this thing called codependence too. If a person doesn't have the will and the guts to maintain and continue investing in her/hyr/his/hir friendships once a relationship has come into a person's life, then the friendships will often be dropped. Some people really also tend to segregate themselves based on whether single or coupled. Or they refuse to go anywhere or do anything without their partners. This is annoying.

[Nat]

Ps. Do you see this behavior as something femmes do exclusively or more often than others in the community? Do you feel like this femme friend-block falls along identity lines between butches and transmen? Like - do you feel femmes have encouraged your exclusion because of how your identify/experience your gender? If so, I am wondering if this is a common experience for others as well?