Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

For me. ME ME ME ME.

As a history major, (who did not concentrate in Women's Studies btw) - in fact there maybe people on here who actually lived it - so please let me know if my reading of the history is inadequate...

The 1940s and 1950s were about clearly defined gender roles. The two genders were male and female. It was in the late 1960s and 1970s that some in the women's movement decided that the butch femme dynamic was oppressive and saw Butch - Femme as attempting to mimic hetro life. As time moves forward, so do social norms, societal preferences and technology. All things that we are exposed to in different ways depending on where we live, who raises us and technological accessibility.

These are also those things that make this dynamic hard to define TODAY. In past decades it has clearly been defined, misunderstood, used for good and to seperate.

To me Male IDs, TGs and FTMS DO belong in the most traditional sense of Butch-Femme, in a way that I do not.

I do belong in the newer updated we are "everything" version of butch-femme.

When the Butch-Femme dynamic became popular during the 40s & 50s, I don't think it was analyzed like this - it was a much simpler time with far less technology. Women dressed up like men, held doors, went to work in factories and had their "wife" at home. So did almost every other 1950s household. It was a reflection of society then.

WE (the all inclusive WE) are the reflection of society now.

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever) than the butch, with the butch staying at home because it was hard for them to find work. I don't believe butches back then saw themselves as men. Perhaps some did, but no from what I read it wasn't male and female as the two gender roles. I am a modern day butch who wears men's clothing. I am not a man.

[Dylan]

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever) than the butch, with the butch staying at home because it was hard for them to find work. I don't believe butches back then saw themselves as men. Perhaps some did, but no from what I read it wasn't male and female as the two gender roles. I am a modern day butch who wears men's clothing. I am not a man.

What I have read is that they worked at factories and other places where there was not a uniform requirement. And that femme's did work moreso in the 50s. I think that it was a gender role that butches did see themselves as - it did mimic hetro society in roles - in a way that we do not today.

Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

What I have read is that they worked at factories and other places where there was not a uniform requirement. And that femme's did work moreso in the 50s. I think that it was a gender role that butches did see themselves as - it did mimic hetro society in roles - in a way that we do not today.

Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s.

Well you could always read Joan Nestle- a femme who was there during the 1950s- for a different perspective.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well you could always read Joan Nestle- a femme who was there during the 1950s- for a different perspective.

And I will! It is hard to find a lot on it and it does facinate me. Thanks.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever)

factories/prostitution and a good butch lover: vocations and love that could support a single mother both financially and psychologically; after 12 hours of hard labor in this society, a man's open arms would be beyond suspect.

just saying.

[little man]

Originally Posted by adorable

I disagree. I think that IF they're outsides matched their insides they would be identifying to the world they were a man. And not only is it something they dream about, fantasize about and hope for - it can be all consuming. It is very real for them. It is very frustrating and my impression is they do think about it all the time.

Within our "subgroup" as you call it the most frustrating thing is not being able to celebrate being a man. To do that can be seen as msyoginistic. The acceptance is limited in a "yeah, yeah ok you're a man don't throw it in our face" kind of way. Being a man is not what some people feel on the inside - so rather then accept that some people do - they are quick to dismiss the realness and excitement of another's core being.

What does happen at the grocery store, at the zoo, in the shower, waiting for the bus, applying for a job - is they are reminded constantly of how the world sees them which is not how they feel. I see that is a sad sort of hell.

(I disagree with your taking your experience for others - not your experience if that makes sense. I don't see that as the experience for many female bodied men.)

adorable, i'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with. is it that you think most people in the world (yes, that would be the larger, straight world) spend time considering gender presentation and the ramifications of being misaligned with one's body?

do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them?

i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store.

a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning.

i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

Butch is a word with many meanings, many incarnations. But I vehemently disagee that in the context of BFP.com (or this conversation) a straight natal male who is butch appearing is connected to this community. Nor do I see a bunch of gay (born) male butch - femme men wanting to hang around here. And that butch straight cis-gendered butch looking women down the street might take offense to being lumped in with our butch femme dynamic.

It's seems really distasteful to me to try to stretch butch out beyond recognition, downgrade butch identity here to having such generic blahzay definition.

You know, I don't know if you identify as butch anymore, nor do I care, but I do... and it the context of this community it has meaning, very specific history and we have more connection to each other and more value in all of that than to bust it to almost nothing.

Just think that's especially crazy in a thread that's about not defining others and respecting identities.

*not some straight butch looking lady down the street*
Metropolis

[BullDog]

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by little man

adorable, i'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with. is it that you think most people in the world (yes, that would be the larger, straight world) spend time considering gender presentation and the ramifications of being misaligned with one's body?

do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them?

i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store.

a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning.

i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today.

Yes, I read you wrong. I don't disagree. Thank you for clarifying - although when I went back and read your post realized that I had misread it and it was clear how it was written.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Thanks for bringing this up it's a good point. Sometimes in these gender discussions I feel like I have to pick a side to fit in all the way on the imaginary gender scale some have made.

[betenoire]

So, back to Linus' question:

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

I'm gonna answer your question with another question. Because I tend to do that.

How do you feel about women dating trans(sexual) males but not "biological" (EWWW, I hate typing biomale! Let's say non-trans instead, okay?) males?

I mean, if you're gonna date FTMs but not date, um, Ms...doesn't that on some level indicate that you don't really fully 100% recognize your man's real sex? Or is it the fact that FTMs were at least socialised as Women earlier in life that makes it acceptable to partner with them and not non-trans guys?

(Again with the reiterating that I am talking about transsexual men here, not transgendered.)

[Jess]

OK, having had some time for the gazillion thoughts regarding this subject to ramble around my head, I will try to make myself more clear.

Regarding a persons personal pronoun, I will call them whatever I see them use referring to themselves and usually avoid it altogether if I am unsure. The topic was brought up regarding a specific incident to which I feel I answered to quite clearly, as I was confused by the several choices of pronouns or descriptors the person used referring to himself. Again, I apologize if he took it in any dismissive way.

Regarding the use of the term trans, I used the quotes, because I see "TRANS" used referring to several different things and am never quite sure which it is when someone just says trans. Is it transsexual, transgendered, trans-spirited? I try not to assume, but obviously I am not the only one who gets confused by this catch all word.

Regarding MY use of the word Butch, to my knowledge "butch" was originally one of those derogatory words given to label masculine women. Mostly it was a source of hate and disparity, and like the word "fag" or "queer", butch women reclaimed it as a source of pride and power. The word itself goes back to before "lesbians" claimed it. Further, straight women were often nicknamed "Butch" and quite frequently in a loving manner by their male counterparts who were not threatened in their own sense of masculinity. I will illustrate with photos from a grave across the street from my house. This couple was married in 1956 and Pappy is still living.





As to who has a place in this community, I think we all do. My statement about MY not viewing men as "butch" is based on my experience with transsexual/ FTM's who do not identify as "butch". Again, I apologize if it was read to mean I think FTM's don't have a place here. If someone wants to call themselves a butch man, who am I to say differently?

Like Wil stated earlier, I think way too often these conversations generally only exist here because in the outside/ real world, we are all way too busy dealing with life on life's terms. The hetero world ( in general) makes and passes judgement on us based on appearances or characteristics and usually I am way too busy trying to not get killed or attacked to give a fuck about defining things like "trans" or "butch" or "pronoun preference".

Three days ago in a small convenience store we stopped at while trying to help someone move, a group of three people various ages and sexes were discussing me quite audibly. The store being very small and crowded, their words quite loud and hurtful, I smiled back in their faces and simply said "ya know, it might be nicer if you at least waited until you got outside before you start gossiping about someone who is in front of you". Now, I could have said nothing or I could have turned around and punched someone or I could have melted in fear or any number of responses. As a Butch woman I get this kind of shit almost every time I go into public and certainly any time I have to take a piss.

When trying to figure out my own place I KNOW it would be easier for me in dealing with the world at large if I transitioned... had a beard.. wasn't a source of constant ogling and for some reason a threat to straight folks who just don't get it. I, however, am not willing at this point in my life to do that. I love my wife. She is a dyke. She fell in love with ME, all of me, both my feminine and masculine aspects and presentations.

I try to call people what they wish to be called. If I read their words and descriptors and there are several to choose from, I try to reference ALL of them so I don't screw it up and ya know, sometimes I still might and will correct it as soon as it is pointed out to me. I have been living with being called he or she for so friggen long I no longer really give a shit what someone calls me. Note my personal pronoun choice. I know it is hard for some people to see me ( all live and in person) and try to guess what I am, so why should I get upset with them? To me, the meat of what a person shares with me is far more important that what gender it came from.

My struggle as a queer woman is still very based in the politics of gaining equal rights. If our brothers and sisters in the LGBT community can stop fighting with each other, then perhaps we can channel that energy into the real struggle. Perhaps, we could stop focusing so much on the minutiae of "words" and focus on the reality of "US". Perhaps we can realize our allies instead of being so quick to make enemies within our ranks.

Dylan, I am hoping this might help clarify some of where I am coming from. I may owe you a more personal response and please let me know if I do. The whole subject is so profound on so many levels both personally and as a member of this community that I am having a hard time dissecting it all.

Edited to add: If the pictures I tried to post don't show up, they are in my gallery and I am a technical idiot. Sorry.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

Bulldog, I'm not denying anything

I'm merely stating that b-f culture was not then, nor is it now a 'woman only turf'.

There were many many transpeople involved in butch femme history who also took beatings for being who they were too

I'm also not denying that the one article you provided spoke about butch women. I read the article. Yes, it centered on butch femme folks who id'd as woman.

Nor, am I denying that Nestle likes to focus on CIS women's history as applied to butch femme history

That doesn't mean trans people were not part of the butch-femme history/community/activism/etc

It's only a *(cis)woman's* history if One chooses to focus their attention on *(cis)women*


Dylan

[Sachita]

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

[betenoire]

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

Thanks for the honest response. Like I said, I get "he" and/or "she" everyday and usually it just rolls off.

One poor little older lady was calling me sir at the walmart pharmacy recently and I guess caught a profile of a tit and then fell all over herslef trying to apologize and correct herself. I was like, "ma'am, it is REALLY ok, no big deal". I actually felt sad that she was so dumbfounded. So sincerely upset with her "mistake" and it pained me to see her struggle so with it.

Thanks again.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Sachita

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on.

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?