Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Dance-with-me]

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

I like this approach. Too often this topic degenerates into a bashing of lesbians that are not into butch-femme and that always irritates the shit out of me.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

Wow. I havent been this offended or felt lesbian bashed in a long time.

I suggest you start by reexamining the attitudes and the judgements in the words you are using.

To call non butch-femme people "generic" lesbians is incredibly offensive.

To describe people and presume they are "in the middle interms of gender presentation" is bizarre. Gender is what is between your ears. There are many of us lesbians who are attuned to being female and we just express being female our own way. It is not a "gender" issue. It is being a woman our way. Please dont confuse the way someone dresses or their sportiness or their external anything as a "gender issue".

In the same vein, to say these middle of the road gender people who are attracted to their counterparts rather than their opposites is also offensive. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. Period.

I have a real hard time when I start hearing the term butch phobic especially when it is coupled with the usual....just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

Butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics. Woman energy expressed in every which way women choose to express it is different from the way mixed energy is expressed. It is not anti butch or anti male, it is pro woman.

In the same vein, there are many of us women loving other women lesbians who like, look forward to, and are replenished by our women energy only events. We deal with mixed energy all day long and the sexism, misogyny and other crap that goes with it. We like the safety, comfort, and rejuvenation that comes from being with like minded people.

Yet, and this is where our internalized sexism comes in, we as women have been socialized to believe we must be inclusive of all. Good women are inclusive women. Bad women are exclusive women. Exclusive women who keep masculine at bay are really really bad women.

There is nothing wrong with women empowering themselves by having woman exclusive anything. And, it doesnt make us bad women, bad lesbians, or "generic" lesbians. It makes us self respecting, self directed, self caring women who want to be around other women who feel the same way.

Have you thought of making a butch-femme meet up group?

[aishah]

kobi, i really appreciated your response, esp what you said about not assuming someone's gender id and the issues with the term "generic lesbian" (which makes me cringe too). i got the impression that you are positing woman and butch/masculine (or even femme) as something separate though. i'm wondering how butches who very much identify as women fit into that - at least with what you said about "butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics."

[MissItalianDiva]

Hmm...I thought I understood your general point but after reading your post again I just am sitting here wondering WTH to be honest.

Perhaps this group your are a member or participant in just simply does not want or need to identify with being butch or femme. Why do they have to be "generic" lesbians or even lesbians for that matter. Perhaps they choose to date others that are "andro" etc as you put it because that is where their attraction is and of course their choice.

I don't get why it bothers you that they are different. My suggestion would be to
1. Not box folks into categories
2. Don't make assumptions
3. Realize not everyone is going to or will want to have the same view of you even if you have a discussion with them
4. Open you mind and your world.

I am sorry but your post and words seem rather hypocritical to me or at the very least contradictory. I tried to read in between the lines but I can't seem to find any other way to perceive this other then it being offensive.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics.

I disagree with that since many, if not most, butches are women and experience themselves as women.

I think the OP is asking for help in trying to explain butch and femme as genders, not necessarily our dynamic. I could be wrong.

There are a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us. It's useful to educate them if you are interested in that.

I think she's asking a hard question. It's hard to go back to square one and say butch is this or that, especially when we know it isn't always.

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by aishah

kobi, i really appreciated your response, esp what you said about not assuming someone's gender id and the issues with the term "generic lesbian" (which makes me cringe too). i got the impression that you are positing woman and butch/masculine (or even femme) as something separate though. i'm wondering how butches who very much identify as women fit into that - at least with what you said about "butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics."

What I was addressing is that under the queer umbrella there are many branches with some similarities but also with distinct differences. Finding ones way through the branches to the place where one finds the sense of community that speaks to them is very much an individual thing.

What I was also addressing is that woman-woman, minus the labels and qualifiers we are used to in this community, is a very real, very valid, choice of lifestyle which deserves as much respect and acceptance as any other branch under the umbrella.

The queer community is a diverse community. The word diverse indicates differences. If there werent differences, would we use the word diversity?

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Martina

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

You gave me a Ooooooo, I like that. Martina. Nicely said. I agree.

[Fatale]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The queer community is a diverse community. The word diverse indicates differences. If there werent differences, would we use the word diversity?

No, we would use the word "boring".

[Dance-with-me]

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think the OP is asking for help in trying to explain butch and femme as genders, not necessarily our dynamic. I could be wrong.

There are a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us. It's useful to educate them if you are interested in that.

I think she's asking a hard question. It's hard to go back to square one and say butch is this or that, especially when we know it isn't always.

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

Thank you. Probably more as gender presentations or gender expressions than genders, but you are correct - no intention of trying to "explain" the butch/femme dynamic in any depth at all.

There ARE a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us, and this IS about educating them - or at least opening up a dialog with them, and giving everyone more to think about.

No intention of making any kind of definitive "butch is..." statements - because, as you said, there is no definitive way of describing it.

I love the suggestion of saying that masculinity and femininity don't belong to any gender. I also thought about using my granddaughter, who has rejected all "girl" stuff since she was 2 and plans to marry a very girly-girl friend of hers, and her good friend who is a "princess boy" with a very feminine gender presentation who has a crush on one of the rough and tumble boys in his class, as a starting point: They're not playing roles, they're not playing a game, they just don't get why it's somehow wrong for a girl to prefer spiderman and trucks and identify far more with the boys, or for a boy to prefer sparkles and princesses and identify far more with the girls -- because it's NOT wrong, society is wrong for putting them in a box and saying girls can only like this and boys can only like that. My granddaughter and her friend are probably not transsexual but their gender presentation doesn't match the stereotypes of what they "should" be -- and there's nothing wrong with that. AND when they grow up, my granddaughter quite possibly will be a butch, with a masculine gender presentation just like she already has now (in 6 yo form) and she may have a strong preference and feel most a home with a girl who has a very feminine gender presentation.

OK end ramble. But that's some of where my head is with this.

I appreciate your input.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

Unless a person has an investment in understanding something, they are not going to be open to it. I don't know the purpose of the meetup group, but if you can find a way to speak to what may create an interest for them in this topic, you will be off to a good start. Good luck. You definitely have a tough crowd in that specific community.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Unless a person has an investment in understanding something, they are not going to be open to it. I don't know the purpose of the meetup group, but if you can find a way to speak to what may create an interest for them in this topic, you will be off to a good start. Good luck. You definitely have a tough crowd in that specific community.

Oh I definitely know that a closed mind is not going to be opened. The topics of their discussion gatherings are publicized in advance, so I'm hoping that anyone who attended would come with an open mind. I planned to ask a B/F couple I know to go with me, if for no other reason than to have a butch present for the discussion. I also would hope that it would be a safe space for others in the group who identify as butch or femme to talk about that - because it really is not a community that otherwise supports it, and I imagine there may be some who ID as butch or femme who have been reluctant to come out.

[BrutalDaddy]

The area I live in isn't too bad, meaning there's a few butches here and there but for most part, straight and lgbtq folks just smile at 'sational and I then go about their business.

Now on the other side of the bay from where we live is a different story. Lol. I still remember when 'sational first came to see me, we went to a local gay bar I hadn't been in and someone had told me we should try it out. Okay, cool. Some place where we can talk and hang out, play pool, and not worry about people giving us sideway looks. Oh how wrong I was. I swear we got nastier dirty looks from the lesbians in that bar then we ever get from straight people! Seriously, it was making us a lil uncomfortable. Lol.

So I can understand kinda where you're coming from, Dance. I hope you're able to figure out how you want to approach it and that you find others who are willing to expand their own minds and views. Good luck.


Grinning At The Haters (in that bar),
Brute.

[Corkey]

As each person is different, we are all individuals living in a society that doesn't respect our personal presentations. Just as there is no single way to describe Butch or Femme, the clothes do not make the ID. It never has and it never will.
We are human beings , each with a path that is different than any other human. I agree with discussing in the *I* and not generalizing.

[Dance-with-me]

Let me try approach this question from a different perspective, sinc I have zero intention of generalizing anyone but clearly not explaining myself effectively:

You live in a community with extremely little diversity in the lesbian community and a lot of open anti-butch/femme viewpoints, even open derision of butches in particular. Within the context of an ongoing lesbian discussion group (with pre-announced topics so no one is surprised) you'd like to open a dialog to discuss gender presentation and expression in the lesbian community, with the hope of both starting some honest dialog and to potentially give potentially closeted butches and femmes in that community a safe space to self-identify and connect.

How would you go about doing that? How would you describe this particular discussion on the schedule?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

Let me try approach this question from a different perspective, sinc I have zero intention of generalizing anyone but clearly not explaining myself effectively:

You live in a community with extremely little diversity in the lesbian community and a lot of open anti-butch/femme viewpoints, even open derision of butches in particular. Within the context of an ongoing lesbian discussion group (with pre-announced topics so no one is surprised) you'd like to open a dialog to discuss gender presentation and expression in the lesbian community, with the hope of both starting some honest dialog and to potentially give potentially closeted butches and femmes in that community a safe space to self-identify and connect.

How would you go about doing that? How would you describe this particular discussion on the schedule?

Invite them to this site. I wouldn't try to open other peoples minds who were genderphobic. It's a waste of energy.

[Greyson]

You might meet with the group's facilitator or whomever is the person that sets up the schedule. Ask them to help you word the topic in such a way to be clear on the topic and in a way that does not point toward blame and shame.

I agree with others here that have mentioned masculine and feminine. Neither of these are gender specific. Finally, you might want to start reading about gender, gender presentation, sexuality, gender in the lesbian community to prepare yourself for the discussion and a better understanding of what others may believe and what yourself believes.

Good luck.

[Dance-with-me]

But I am not assuming that everyone is gender phobic - there is no reason to generalize everyone by the vocalized anti-butch sentiment of others. I am assuming that in this particular meetup group of several hundred women, there are some who are not gender phobic - who perhaps are even butch or femme, or are interested in the topic. Who have perhaps heard much of the anti-butch/femme crap and not known what to say.