A question about passing...

[Bit]

Hi y'all! I have a question for Butches who pass. I'm writing a story and part of the tension depends on two of the characters not being out; they're both what used to be called "Passing Butches." (Sheesh, I've been out of the main gender discussions for a long long time... I don't even know if we still use that term! Anyway, I'm not talking about Transmen, but about Butches who pack and bind.)

My question is, do y'all recognize each other as Butches when you meet the first time? And if not, how long does it take before you do recognize each other? Part of the plot for my story revolves around two Butches who do NOT recognize each other as Butches for a couple weeks, so I want to make sure that's accurate.

I recently had the unhappy experience of being thoroughly immersed in a book right up until the moment I read about the "heavy fragrance of the crepe myrtles".... one of my biggest disappointments as a new gardener thirty years ago was discovering that crepe myrtles have no fragrance at all, so the sentence popped me right out of the story and into Critical Editor Mode.

I don't wish that to happen to people who read my story! If it's not realistic that the Butches wouldn't recognize each other, then I want to change the story now before it gets too difficult.

There is some magic involved in the hiding of identities--it's a harsh world, they don't even exchange names--but I don't want to push the boundaries of realism too far, yanno?

I'm grateful for any help/insight y'all can give me! Thanks!

[Greyson]

Bit, in my life experience it has never taken me two weeks to notice another butch. I usually takes only moments to read them. I find the same thing is happening for me with Transmen too.

I am not sure what it is exactly. I guess the way we move through the world. IMO with much more confidence, a touch of swagger, looks younger than our years, and I hate to admit to this but usually shorter than a cisgender man.

[EnderD_503]

I mostly agree with Greyson. Also, I think being able to pass in heterosexual society is sometimes something that is easier to do than when one is dealing with other butches. Mainstream heterosexual society today is still fairly unaware of b/f culture, whereas there are certain characteristics or details that another butch would likely notice fairly quickly that might go unnoticed elsewhere.

It really depends on what these two individuals look like, I suppose. Greyson brought up height, though there are still plenty of butches who fall into the male height range. If they've heard each other speak, voice would be another indicator. Even if many butches have lower voices and would be able to pass for male/younger male, that's something else another butch would likely pick up on in combination with other characteristics. The lack of facial hair for those who aren't on T, no adam's apple (though that one can be a little iffy). With binding as well, unless a butch has a smaller than average (sometimes even average) chest or a more well-made binder, depending on the shirt they're wearing it can be fairly easy to tell if someone's binding without paying close attention. While they often come extremely close to looking natural and while they wouldn't turn heads in mainstream society, there's often a certain "look" to a bound chest, imo. Some shirts hide that better than others.

To me it doesn't matter how a butch acts/moves etc., but a combination of physical characteristics that would give them away fairly quickly to other butches.

[rlin]

i am pretty thick...
i think maybe if you tone down your butches noticing everything about them... maybe toss in a couple of surprises to them that they didnt notice immediately...
i may be curious... i mean... i might have a little fleeting thought or think about possibilities...
but... i mostly give ppl the benefit of the doubt...

a butch that was passing well could go unrecognized by me definitively... i mean... i may have a pull or a twinge... but... i could definitely miss...
or let myself not think about it...
maybe that something familiar twinge... tied to a tendency to not notice surroundings... or maybe if one was clumsy in a sense... or they were both preoccupied...

i do definitely see times when i could meet a butch and not realize they were born female... most definitely...
especially if i never touch them... or if my glasses need cleaning!

hope this helps...
its a bit scattered but damn... its early for me...

[Dude]

Without even thinking about it, I scan my environment immediately looking for queers or allies in all forms.
If there's a tweener (for lack of a better word), butch or gay male or hippie type person, I always notice them very quickly.
I think if I was straight I would likely do the same thing because I have that people watching, curiosity gene that I can never really turn off.

[Converse]

Bit, Interesting question, it’s all been said but just wanted to throw in my nod. Growing up - many in my social circle would pass, and yes there was almost always instant recognition- maybe it was something about a personal radar that showed you where allies/kindred spirits might be if support was required. Once the bleep appeared on the screen then perhaps you would look for confirmation- like the size, binding evidence, hands, jaw line- I recall exchanging the “yep” eye contact moments, maybe because passing to another butch was not the point and so perhaps small give-aways between them were intentional.

[waxnrope]

Hi Bit.
I've read your post intro twice, and I am trying to discern if you are speaking of todays butch, or the butch of another era. I'm old enough to have noticed a sort of transition or change in the appearance of SOME butches.
I am also thinking about how butches appeared to me, when I was a teen and fighting for an identity. Social class and seemed to be in the picture. In Los Angeles at that time, I could spot a working class butch a mile away. Hair, dress, attitude. The gym teacher was also a dead give away. Hair, no make up, no dress, sport preferences, etc., which were the superficial things that alluded to gender at that time.

So, I would ask, is this a story of the past or current day? Then, I could answer better from my location.

Thanks, Bit, for being authentic. This sounds interesting. I'm glad that you don't wish to commit a cape myrtle caper!

[Bit]

Thank you all so much!! I appreciate the time and trouble you took to answer me!

Mostly instant recognition, huh? So now I have to figure out what would cloud that, even for a day. What a challenge, eh? Because both characters are hyper-alert; like I said, a harsh world.

It might be that it's the reader I have to fool. *thoughtful look*

rlin, thank you for talking about not noticing. I might have other characters not notice in just those ways, but the two Butches have to be hyper-vigilant and very much aware of their surroundings. Like Converse said, they would be on the lookout for allies... only I want instant (and mistaken!) "enemy" identification.

Terry, tis an alternate Earth story, one set on a low-tech world, so you could think of it as the past, but not in the 1960s sense of past--more in a medieval sense of past.

One of the hallmarks of the society they're in is respect for other people's privacy, and there is a certain amount of magic available for shielding and hiding one's identity.... but yanno, that's not gonna stop the Femme from knowing, lol, because, well... shall we say because of chemistry? And if the Femme knows, then it's important to me to be accurate about whether the Butches would know, cuz yanno there's gonna be a certain amount of tension between the three of them.

I really appreciate everyone's input!

[Rockinonahigh]

HI Bit...Passing for me has worked pretty well in most situations,tho I swear I dont really try to do so.I can go into a place then notice most butches pretty quick,even tho I have missed a lot cause they often are right on the edge of discovery of who they are.One thing ive noticed is that what one sees as butch may be andro to another,hear in my home town I am often thought of a trans by many,wich irks the crap out of the trans men cause they are on T and or going thrue some form of transition and im not in anyway shape or form doing that.On one hand ppl see me as an old school old fashion butch of the 60,s or before or,beleave it or not, a cross dresser witch really pisses me off when it happends cause im just being me.I live in the south (my part of the south anyway) wich dosent do much of any bf or have a place for it..this is lesbo country all the way.I may be wrong but it shure seems that way to me.

[Soft*Silver]

bit..this takes place in midievil times?

[Bit]

Thank you, Rockin! I really appreciate your perspective!

Hi softness! No, it doesn't take place in medieval times exactly; it's not historical fiction but a fantasy set on another planet. That planet has a very low tech society, like Earth did in medieval times, so there won't be any rubber or silicone or anything... but yanno, they manage.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Bit

Thank you, Rockin! I really appreciate your perspective!

Hi softness! No, it doesn't take place in medieval times exactly; it's not historical fiction but a fantasy set on another planet. That planet has a very low tech society, like Earth did in medieval times, so there won't be any rubber or silicone or anything... but yanno, they manage.

Love it, "but yanno, they manage." Sometimes I feel like I am a relic from the days of wagon trains and moving westward to open up the new frontier. The internet has changed everything.

[Bit]

It sure has changed everything, Greyson! I so know what you mean about feeling like a relic but I call that "pioneer" lol.... I feel so much better about being a pioneer than a relic!

[Ben]

15 millionkajillion stars on this thread... I notice probably 95% of the time... but I remember a time when one was not discovered to be a passer until the mortician discovered their identity.

[katsarecool]

This has been a very interesting read! Thank you!

[Turtle]

I might another butch if I'm busy or something, but 2 weeks - they'd know.

A super-transman and a butch....hmmm? Age plays a role, too. I think

[Jesse]

I think the only thing that would cloud that really would be if you were to place them in a working environment, say in an office atmosphere or something along those lines. Some type of employment where they could not bind/pack and were forced to dress differently than they would otherwise.

[dale2555]

I think it is a rarity for a butch, upon close inspection, not to be recognized as such. No Adam's Apple, wrist size, voice, lack of facial hair, the "softness" of the face - particularly the jaw. IMO, if you know what to look for, you're gonna know 99.99% of the time. Of course this doesn't include transmen on T, unless it's early on in their usage. After a few years on T with voice change, beard, change in jawline, body shifting, chest surgery if needed or well binded, and sometimes baldness, not a clue.

[Bit]

Thank you, everyone, for the input. The two main characters in my story aren't Transmen, they're Butches who bind and pack. Thank you for pointing out all the ways to tell; I can mitigate some of them with clothing, but mostly I think it'll be better if the two of them can tell and the reader is the one I leave in the dark.

Thank you so much for the feedback and help!

[iamkeri1]

Hi Bit,
Have you ever finished this story?
Can we read it?
Smooches,
Keri