Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[AlexHunter]

The media puts so much pressure on women to look a certain way: to be rail thin, but not with a flat chest; to always be perfectly put together; to have completely symmetrical facial features; to conform to society's idea of femininity; and the list continues.

I have been with plenty of femmes who struggled with body image issues...

But what about the butches?

I decided to start this thread because I've observed body image issues are a largely taboo subject among the butches I've known. So many people associate self consciousness and eating disordered behavior with those who are much more feminine.

I starved myself in middle school when I noticed I was growing breasts. I wanted to be less of a girl and consequently more of a guy. I binge ate in high school and experimented with steroids so I would gain weight and, again, appear to be more of a guy. I tried to alter my body composition to an unhealthy state.

Apart from wanting to appear more male in general (I am genderqueer/transgendered/largely male ID'd), I've felt pressure to be "man enough"/"butch enough" for any femme I liked. I like to be physically strong for myself, but I also want to make sure I am strong enough to impress the femmes.

I want to look good. I want to be appealing. My fear of shallow women has definitely driven me to work a little harder, too.

It's not the toughest, most butch-like act to admit to this sort of thing, but I know I am not the only one of our kind to have gone through this struggle.

What pressure or expectations have you felt from society or yourself with regards to your body, being a butch?

Do these expectations still plague you? How do you handle them?

Let's share our stories.

[Toughy]

It's not the toughest, most butch-like act to admit to this sort of thing, but I know I am not the only one of our kind to have gone through this struggle.

remember this: Every single thing you do/act/look is butch, no matter what it is. That is true because you are butch and if you are doing it....then it's a butch thing.

In my experience what femmes want from us is that we be real....to be who we are without shame or guilt. Muscle strength is way down on the list. Having a generous heart and acting from that heart are way up on the list.

[Scuba]

Good topic and one that I really want to respond to but need to be a bit more together in thought than I am at this moment.

Be back later

[PaPa]

I agree 100% with Toughy.

For me, butch is who I am at the core of my being. I am not trying to fulfill stereotypes or impress anyone with that identity. The women I have encountered were seeking a butch who knew how to treat women right and were not looking at superficial aspects (mannerisms or physique).

I live by the adage I am who I am. Of course each day I strive to be the best that I can be, but the basis is still the same. Take me as I am or not. Others opinions of me do not alter who I am. I do not need validation for that role.

That is just my view on this topic.

[AlexHunter]

Originally Posted by Toughy

remember this: Every single thing you do/act/look is butch, no matter what it is. That is true because you are butch and if you are doing it....then it's a butch thing.

In my experience what femmes want from us is that we be real....to be who we are without shame or guilt. Muscle strength is way down on the list. Having a generous heart and acting from that heart are way up on the list.

Well, I agree...

However, I have personally encountered some rather superficial femmes who had quite a list of demands they wanted a butch to meet, ie the attitude of: "I'm hot shit and you better be hot shit, too! You have to be everything I want or I can go find someone who is -- because, once again, I'm hot shit!" I do realize people evolve with time and that the superficial ones I came across when I was, say, 20, have probably grown up quite a bit.

I know I project a tough guy sort of image without necessarily intending to do it. I do occasionally fear disappointing people when they find out I'm not completely the tough guy they thought I was, though I acknowledge that is an assumption they chose to have. Humans are not one dimensional.

[kannon]

Hey good thread. I hope to post when I have more time. I look forward to reading the post.

[musicman]

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi is what the hell you talking about, fuck off.

Once I settled down, my thoughts are this, you can never be good enough, you can never please someone like that. You're going to spend all your time trying to be what she wants you to be.In the end when you fail to meet her standards she is going to walk away and try and find someone that can.

It's my experience when a potential partner (either Butch or femme) yes there are butches out there that think they are all that and more as well. Think they can find anyone at a drop of a hat isn't going to take the time to work out issues in a relationship. I think we all know that it takes some work to keep a relationship going. There has to be some give and take, some understanding that we are not perfect and a work in progress.

There is nothing wrong with having self confidence in who or what you are. You just need to know we all are a work in progress.

In my opinion, when someone thinks they are hot shit,think they have lines of people lined up to bed them wake up one morning, looks in the mirror and realizes their still single.

[TimilDeeps]

There was a time when I was concerned with how my "butchness" was perceived by others (albeit that time was over twenty years ago) I've learned a lot since then.

When one decides that they will no longer conform to the societal expectations of how they are to act, dress, perform, eat, sleep, or fuck–then one becomes who they truly are.

So, I say to you, Alex; live up to your own expectations. Strive to meet your own standards and once you have, set the bar higher.

[girl_dee]

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by musicman

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi...

LOL... My instant reaction to the idea of a femme saying such to me ... was "Yes, baby what can I do for you?" --I can play that game--

but seriously, I understand what you meant musicman.

I face the stereotype of 'what is Butch' almost every day.
I don't...(I hit an emotionalblock on this train of thought) so I'll rephrase it...
if I see a reflection of myself looking male... as I percive myself... it almost instantly triggers a reaction of "you don't measure up" ... I feel some shame that I don't have the upper body strength.. That I think I should have...

looking butch enought for a woman, is a particular issue I get passed, because I date/play with women who like a female presentation. so I am in drag anyway.

I get quite a bit of headshaking from other Butches. but so far the ones who have talked with me understand where I am coming from. but, I think it stills makes them uncomfortable. (that I am in drag)

came back to add: so far most of the responces have been, along the lines of "just accept who you are, and how you are and get on with it" ... I was thinking that the discussion was intended to be more on HOW to get over it. (with some details) and what does it feel like "in the process" ... very valid points for discussion.

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

My fear of shallow women has definitely driven me to work a little harder, too.

First I would say love yourself, take pride in being who you are and stay away from shallow women. If a women is after you only because you look the way she wants you to look she is not ready for the many paths and forks your life will take along the way.

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

just a thought from this femme girl

if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.

just my humble .02

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

[TimilDeeps]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by TimilDeeps

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

YES !!! IT DOES!!!!

(to me anyway)


--Laughing-- the red lipcolor on a Butch, really bothers a lot of people

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.

I was so NOT trying to presume to label her as a butch that first night, and in talks we've had later. I cannot or will not label anyone, that is for them to do. She has told me though, that I am the first person that has truly SEEN *her*, and accepted *her* as she is. She IS a butch, but she is a *woman* too. HELL YEAH! (I told her that for ME, she is exactly what I was looking for... she has the butch side and the female side as well. I get to play with both! Woo-hoo!)

[Parker]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

The media puts so much pressure on women to look a certain way: to be rail thin, but not with a flat chest; to always be perfectly put together; to have completely symmetrical facial features; to conform to society's idea of femininity; and the list continues.

I have been with plenty of femmes who struggled with body image issues...

But what about the butches?

My body issues never stemmed from not looking feminine enough - I've never been feminine. Even when I was trying to be feminine with the dresses and makeup in college because that's what my mom wanted me to do - I still wasnt all that feminine and that was ok with me.

Conversely, my body issues never stemmed from not looking male, masculine, or man enough - because I am not, never was, and never will be a man.

Man or male and butch are not the same thing - it took me a few years to figure that out when I was first coming out because the fallacy that all butches are like men, or want to emulate men, or want to and eventually will become men was and still is out there.

But I love my female body - and I love being the butch that I am - so I had no issues with not looking *anything* enough. No one's opinion of my butchness (or the lack thereof, in their eyes) has ever really mattered to me.

My body issues come from my size, my weight. When I was in high school, college (the first time), and the Navy, I was thin - some said too thin at 135lbs and 5'10". After I got out of the Navy in my mid-20s, I gained about 65lbs in one year, averaging about 200lbs. It took me a few years to be ok with that weight. But now I am even bigger - about 265lbs and what I see on the outside is nothing like how I perceive myself on the inside. It sometimes makes me feel unattractive, unlovable, and undesirable.

I know that, along with men's and society's expectations of what I should look like, the birth of my issue probably also comes from when I was young and my mom - who wasnt really "fat" at all - would continually diet and complain about how fat she was. That thinking stuck with me as a kid and into my adult life and it has now become my own issue.

It is something I rarely talk about, but struggle with all the same.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

and I am being serious..........yes all of those things are butch when a butch wears/does them. There are plenty of butches who wear skirts and make-up to work every day. It's drag and we all wear drag of some kind or another every day.

-------------------

I cannot tell a butch (or anyone for that matter) what their process looks like when it comes to acceptance of the body we are born into.

I have always identified as a girl/woman and have never doubted that at all. The butch came later when I was in college. I knew I was a different kind of woman than what the TV/magazines/etc said I should be. It was the old bulldyke at the first dive gay bar I went to, who told me I was butch.

I was raised by women of pioneer stock. One of my grandmothers told stories about coming to NM in a covered wagon. All my women elders could do anything men could do and more. They all wore pants as well as dresses. I did not get that indoctrination of my greatest achievement would be in being a wife and a mother. I was lucky.....really lucky and I am always grateful to those women who provided examples of strong women whose worth was not defined by their husband and children.

Of course I was unsure about sex and my body.....everyone is. I was fortunate in finding femmes who helped me along with that....oh yes indeed they helped.....<grin>

I am never impressed with superficiality. never. ever. I understand there are femmes (and butches) who are superficial and I have a high radar for it. And I don't play in their playground. I don't want to be around anyone who is superficial.....there are plenty of other folks in this world.

I think I am rambling so I will stop.......

edited to add..........oh yeah......my only body image was I wanted to be 6 ft tall ...............5'8" is too short and I was a bit insecure about not being feminine enough but I outgrew that.

[Silverseastar]

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.

[TimilDeeps]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.

Well said....