Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[Turtle]

Thank you all for sharing yourselves here.

Every time I take a gender test I score androgynous. I certainly had a long time of rejecting my femaleness and I am very thankful for having had my children - not just for the amazing experience of parenting children into adults, but for growing me into a fuller human being and for coming into accepting and liking my femaleness. Being pregnant and breastfeeding is amazing.

And yes, there were times when I struggled with society's perceptions, parameters, and projections. Yes, I worked seriously on the idea of "looking better" with make-up on my face....and getting to the place of "No, I don't want to do that" and what it means for me (please do not read any judgement of what others may do).

And yes, at this point I love it when someone in a store calls me "sir" - then realizes and apologizes - and I say "It's all right - REALLY" in hopes of readjusting the paradigm just a bit.

Sometimes being unique is difficult, but it gets easier - it's one of the good parts about getting older...much of this stuff gets to a more "settled" place...and these kinds of discussions and sharings are part of how I got here. Thank you.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

Originally Posted by WomenMoveMe

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Quickly hunching over in effort to pull my breasts into me, dropping my voice down as many octaves as possible, I attempted to become the man my addresser thought me to be. Without making eye contact, I would hurry to the sanctity of the exit, as I muttered, “just looking". More often than not, they stood staring at me, confused, before apologizing and falling all over themselves to correct their mistake. This only made it worse. I hated myself, as well as the angst and confusion being me, seemingly caused others.

I knew were I to open my mouth to speak, were I to look them squarely in the eye, they would see the error of their way. I knew it would be uncomfortable for them. Why did I care if this person, whom I did not know, was made to feel uncomfortable? It was not my issue after all. It would fall on their shoulders right? They were the ones that did not “see” me. Did not take the time to “see” the woman that stood before them. So many years I blamed others. It took me so very long to understand that they DID “see” me. It was I who did not “see” myself. It was I that was uncomfortable. It saddens me to admit, I performed this on the spot transformation, because I was ashamed and embarrassed. I did this because I did not know then, that is was not only alright to be me, but that being me was something special, and rare.

I can not blame my struggle with my “butchitude” (as I would come to call it) on not knowing any other like me. I can not blame it on the ignorance of others. The struggle was mine. I did not trust that being who and what I was, was alright. It was not until I met, what I was to learn was a “femme”, that I came to know the dynamic I needed in order to realize complete love and acceptance. It was enlightening and life-altering. My person, and my ability to express it, became part of me, and I reveled in it. I felt the personal freedom to no longer hide the masculine essence that was so much a part of me. I embraced it, and it changed my world.

She was the one that helped me understand that not only was I worthy of being loved just as I am, but because of it. And to think, I almost walked away from her because I felt being with me might cause her public embarrassment. My struggle might have lingered, had this beautiful woman not seen me, had not said to me “Listen, you idiot, get over yourself and do it right now! I knew when I got with you people would know I was queer, and for the first time in my life, I don’t care and you shouldn‘t either”.

That statement alone, allowed me to accept who and what I was. It afforded me the ability and the understanding to just be. It gifted me with the confidence to revel in my masculine energy. It gave me happiness and self-acceptance.

Gone are the days of sucking in my chest, of speaking in some distorted voice in effort to appease the comfort levels of others. Butch did not mean I had to be, or was, a man, It did not mean I was not meant to be in my body. I am a butch woman and masculine energy pours forth from within me. It is palpable, and truthfully, it kinda makes me feel desirable. It seems so easy now, being butch. I spent a lot of years struggling internally, but here I sit today, proudly proclaiming, I am butch…I am me.

this almost brought me to tears. so beautiful and powerful and fierce.... the truth! thank you!

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by WomenMoveMe

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Quickly hunching over in effort to pull my breasts into me, dropping my voice down as many octaves as possible, I attempted to become the man my addresser thought me to be. Without making eye contact, I would hurry to the sanctity of the exit, as I muttered, “just looking". More often than not, they stood staring at me, confused, before apologizing and falling all over themselves to correct their mistake. This only made it worse. I hated myself, as well as the angst and confusion being me, seemingly caused others.

I knew were I to open my mouth to speak, were I to look them squarely in the eye, they would see the error of their way. I knew it would be uncomfortable for them. Why did I care if this person, whom I did not know, was made to feel uncomfortable? It was not my issue after all. It would fall on their shoulders right? They were the ones that did not “see” me. Did not take the time to “see” the woman that stood before them. So many years I blamed others. It took me so very long to understand that they DID “see” me. It was I who did not “see” myself. It was I that was uncomfortable. It saddens me to admit, I performed this on the spot transformation, because I was ashamed and embarrassed. I did this because I did not know then, that is was not only alright to be me, but that being me was something special, and rare.

I can not blame my struggle with my “butchitude” (as I would come to call it) on not knowing any other like me. I can not blame it on the ignorance of others. The struggle was mine. I did not trust that being who and what I was, was alright. It was not until I met, what I was to learn was a “femme”, that I came to know the dynamic I needed in order to realize complete love and acceptance. It was enlightening and life-altering. My person, and my ability to express it, became part of me, and I reveled in it. I felt the personal freedom to no longer hide the masculine essence that was so much a part of me. I embraced it, and it changed my world.

She was the one that helped me understand that not only was I worthy of being loved just as I am, but because of it. And to think, I almost walked away from her because I felt being with me might cause her public embarrassment. My struggle might have lingered, had this beautiful woman not seen me, had not said to me “Listen, you idiot, get over yourself and do it right now! I knew when I got with you people would know I was queer, and for the first time in my life, I don’t care and you shouldn‘t either”.

That statement alone, allowed me to accept who and what I was. It afforded me the ability and the understanding to just be. It gifted me with the confidence to revel in my masculine energy. It gave me happiness and self-acceptance.

Gone are the days of sucking in my chest, of speaking in some distorted voice in effort to appease the comfort levels of others. Butch did not mean I had to be, or was, a man, It did not mean I was not meant to be in my body. I am a butch woman and masculine energy pours forth from within me. It is palpable, and truthfully, it kinda makes me feel desirable. It seems so easy now, being butch. I spent a lot of years struggling internally, but here I sit today, proudly proclaiming, I am butch…I am me.

Well said!!! Although not 6 foot tall, this was my experience as well!

[RNguy]

First off , thank you for this thread . It's very interesting and thank you for all of the butches/bois/FTM/he/hy/she for stepping out and sharing your feelings ... I just want to NOT offend anyone and before you read this , please comprehend that this is about ME ONLY . How I feel only about ME . ok I think that opening paragraph clears me wow , I don't talk about really who I am as a person really , I'm pretty closed down unless you know me very well in real time . This is a big deal that I'm sharing something personal . I have one brother , who I am very close to . It's just he and I as siblings . We are 3 years apart and a few months . He should have been a girl and I should have been a boy no doubt . With that said my brother is not gay , he is a heterosexual married male . We grew up in a very small area and there were about 20 boys all close in age and only one girl my age in our neighborhood. At 3 to 4 years of age is when I can remember things of toys , what I played with and how I was . I can remember being extremely upset that my mom put a dress on me and I told her boys don't wear these and I stripped naked . She said to me " you're not a boy , Blake " ( well she shouldn't have named me Blake right that's my real name by the way , I'm lucky ) anyways , when she said that , I flat out didn't believe her in the least . I only was around the boys , played with boys toys etc... I was too young at that point to know the anatomical differences . My mom said that she couldn't put any dresses on me because of the scene I made as a young child. All that changed later but that's a story that ill never go into here . Anyways , as I grew older into elementary years I looked like a little boy . I played football , strong as an ox , the little girls chased me and treated me like all the other boys and the other boys treated me as alike because appearance wise that's what I looked like . Well junior high hits and my facial structure changes and my body starts the big change . Except my face which still was the boy face really . My gosh I hated the body change . I knew at this point the anatomical difference between boys and girls were and I was not happy at all. I lucked out in the sence that I have a masculine body structure naturally with how my shoulders , arms , legs , thighs are. I never had prominent curves like the female body structures tend to have so that's good . Where I am from , being so small , we all grew up from K-12th grade . Nobody really viewed me as being a girl nor did I view myself as one even though I was aware that I was born a female . At 12 I was diagnosed with having a gender identity disorder . This was my mothers way of coping with a butch child , to make herself have the clarity that it was nothing she did wrong , and to make it known to me that I had a serious mental problem that needed corrected . At 27 , I paid a visit to the same doctor to diagnose him as uneducated , unsympathetic, and a quack . I took t shots for some time , had a top surgery alteration as well trying to correct what is flawed with me . I'm now 36 and feel I'm not flawed at all . I'm perfect . I'm me , I dress how I want which is how your typical male dresses , I smell how I do , which is how your typical guy smells , my hair is how it is which is well short , brown with some silver coming in here and there , I soft pack sometimes when I feel like it , I never bind my chest , bc I don't care for one and for a second there isn't much there to bind . Was a born in the wrong body ? YEP NO DOUBT ... Am I upset about it ? NOPE , GOD WANTED ME LIKE THIS FOR HIS REASONS. Do I like my body ? LOVE IT ALL 5 FT 1 IN OF IT . Do others like my body ? I DO NOT CARE. Have I been called a freak from people on the streets ? YEP OFTEN IN APPALACHIA ,. does that offend me ? I LOVE FREAKS NO !!!!! its taken me a ling time to be in this mindset but this is something personal about me. Thanks for reading .....RNguy ( Blake )

[dykeumentary]

Regarding body image and self-care:
I'd just like to take a moment to pour a cyber-libation for my butch sisters ive known who have died. I knew many butches who wouldnt/couldn't go to the ob/gyn, and died of preventable and treatable cervical and breast cancers. Also, I've known many butch women who struggled with addictions. When I think of my years of being a young butch, i remember the older butches at the bars, and in the softball leagues always hed a beer and a cigarette.

I imagine the butches I knew who have died would be happy that so many young people go to the doctor. One of the reasons I support Planned Parenthood is because for many of us butches, it was the only health care clinic where we felt comfortable.
I'm glad this thread is pointing out how proud butches are of their bodies now.
Because for a very long time our butch bodies were a battlefield, and many good friends lost the battle.

[TimilDeeps]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Regarding body image and self-care:
I'd just like to take a moment to pour a cyber-libation for my butch sisters ive known who have died. I knew many butches who wouldnt/couldn't go to the ob/gyn, and died of preventable and treatable cervical and breast cancers. Also, I've known many butch women who struggled with addictions. When I think of my years of being a young butch, i remember the older butches at the bars, and in the softball leagues always hed a beer and a cigarette.

I imagine the butches I knew who have died would be happy that so many young people go to the doctor. One of the reasons I support Planned Parenthood is because for many of us butches, it was the only health care clinic where we felt comfortable.
I'm glad this thread is pointing out how proud butches are of their bodies now.
Because for a very long time our butch bodies were a battlefield, and many good friends lost the battle.

salut

[clay]

Thanks for that post dykeumentary (hope I spelled your nic right.......)
I have always have my yearly screenings done..labs/pelvic with pap/mammos. As far as that , my being butch has nothing to do with the choice of getting or not..it is MY choice to remain as healthy as I possibly can...as a womyn! . I was in health care field for 21 years..and I KNOW to get those screenings done!
Last year, I had female issues that led me to a uterine biopsy, that netted me being sent to a Gynecological Oncologist at a nearby major teaching hospital. Before I saw trhat doc, she ordered a colonoscopy! I hadn' t had one of those in "years" but went on and had it. Luckily for me, a mass was found, biopsied, and WAS malignant. So I had TWO major abdominal surgeries Dec. 9th back to back..with an abd hystero done then a colon resection..I lost 16 inches of colon...BUT am alive and "unofficially" cancer free. I am having scans and labs done May 8th to check for anything new...the surgeons said I had dodged a major bullet, having that colon malignancy found as early as it was...and I didn't have to have nay chemo or radiation. So, my point? I urge everyone of us to get those yearly screenings done. Mine literally saved my life...
I, too, have lost friends to the dreaded C...which may have been prevented with screenings done regularly! So I am with you on that one....thanks for the reminder!!!

[Ginger]

What an interesting thread, in content of course, but also in that so many femmes are responding to it!

It triggered a memory of a butch I knew a long time ago. She was a young, thin person, and talked about feeling pressure to put on weight! Big butch women teased her for not being "butch" enough, because she was small.

I realized then that oppression around body image was not limited to the cultural pressure on feminine women, to be thin!

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

What an interesting thread, in content of course, but also in that so many femmes are responding to it!

It triggered a memory of a butch I knew a long time ago. She was a young, thin person, and talked about feeling pressure to put on weight! Big butch women teased her for not being "butch" enough, because she was small.

I realized then that oppression around body image was not limited to the cultural pressure on feminine women, to be thin!

That's because femmes go through this stuff too.

We do.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

That's because femmes go through this stuff too.

We do.

Please tell us more about this.

[Soft*Silver]

I am opening up two resale clothing shops..one for plus sized females, and one for all sized males.

I fully expect males to be shopping in the female store, and females to be shopping in the male store

for themselves.

I want my stores to be a place where people feel valued for who they are, not what number they wear, or what gender they need to costume up as.

I have gone thru such an incredible evolution over the past few years. I am as femme as they come yet I certainly dress quite different. At times, I could almost pass as butch, if wardrobe were the only thing that would define as such.

My sub is a bio male who is 6'5" and MASSIVE. And femme. I buy him lingerie as well as carharts. He is all muscle but hates the outdoors. I wear nailpolish and heels and live to be dirty, either gardening or at the barns. He wears red lipstick. I wear pink. He has long hair. I have short. We both are round bellied. I am enchanted by him. He desires me. We both feel good about ourselves (now)...and that is where worth comes in. It costs us so much when we value ourselves thru others' eyes, but its priceless when we treasure who we are ourselves. The enormity of this treasure is one of the many reasons we are so drawn to one another. Regardless of how we fit in the world, we fit with each other. Yet, first and foremost, we had to journey on our own, to where we first felt we fit as Our Selves.

in the past we both have felt like the world disowned us by gender because we didnt fit the norm. We both felt at different times in our lives, we were freaks and felt shame over it. And yet we also fit the "norm" as well. We could "pass" as "acceptable". Yet what we realy wanted was to be defined as acceptable by not "passing" but simply "being"...

People can live in dual realities that split open like atoms depending on who is viewing us, and that includes ourselves.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by WomenMoveMe

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Great post - all of it.

I go through this as well. One time, I stopped the clerk and asked him to look at me. He immediately apologized profusely, embarrassing me even more, but I persisted and refused to shrink away that day.

He told me he didnt see me, that he wasnt paying attention, that he saw the hat and assumed. I told him that was the point - that, instead of just glancing up and assuming, stop for a moment and look at the human being in front of him.

I have heard the excuse that it's my short hair, or it's my hat, or it's my clothes, or it's my stance - but in reality, people are just in too much of a hurry to stop and really *see* the people around them.

Because when you actually look at me, you can see the masculinity, sure; but you can also see the woman in which that masculinity resides.

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by claybaby

Thanks for that post dykeumentary (hope I spelled your nic right.......)
I have always have my yearly screenings done..labs/pelvic with pap/mammos. As far as that , my being butch has nothing to do with the choice of getting or not..it is MY choice to remain as healthy as I possibly can...as a womyn! . I was in health care field for 21 years..and I KNOW to get those screenings done!
Last year, I had female issues that led me to a uterine biopsy, that netted me being sent to a Gynecological Oncologist at a nearby major teaching hospital. Before I saw trhat doc, she ordered a colonoscopy! I hadn' t had one of those in "years" but went on and had it. Luckily for me, a mass was found, biopsied, and WAS malignant. So I had TWO major abdominal surgeries Dec. 9th back to back..with an abd hystero done then a colon resection..I lost 16 inches of colon...BUT am alive and "unofficially" cancer free. I am having scans and labs done May 8th to check for anything new...the surgeons said I had dodged a major bullet, having that colon malignancy found as early as it was...and I didn't have to have nay chemo or radiation. So, my point? I urge everyone of us to get those yearly screenings done. Mine literally saved my life...
I, too, have lost friends to the dreaded C...which may have been prevented with screenings done regularly! So I am with you on that one....thanks for the reminder!!!

Screenings...i understand that this is not a comfortable subject or experience for a lot of folks...even some femmes.

But please, please, please don't neglect your bodies...i'm grateful that Clay did not.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Please tell us more about this.

i can only speak for myself. i am a girl, a woman, a femme ... thats who i am. i didn't go out and find a label then try to conform to it. i am me and if there is a label out there fine i don't care, but i can't live up to someone expectations of what the label means.

i also like to play in the mud, catch, clean and cook my own fish, i want to drive my own boat thank you. i can change the oil in my truck and am very mechanically inclined. i fix things. i am just as comfy in overalls (sometimes i even wear a shirt with them) and workboots as i am in a sundress and sandals. i don't cater to long nails but my toes are well taken care of. i guess at tomboy at times, i've always been that.

WHen i left my job as a banking officer i ditched all of my dress up clothes and enjoyed a life of not having to deal with all of it. i love jeans, a nice shirt and boots, i cuss, i cut my hair off if it gets in the way.

i have been with butches who felt my being less than high femme was not acceptable. i will never forget the look on my exes face when she walked in and i had my hand in a fish's gut. She was horrified and said femmes just don't do those sorts of things.

i was told to get fingernails and wear more *feminine* clothes.

One day a butch was at my house visiting when it began to pour down raining. My boat was filling up with water... she went out to bail it... i grabbed my pump and hooked my battery up to it like i always did. Afterwards she told me i took away her butch card by doing that. i suppose i was to let my boat sink so her so called pride could stay in tact? She said i kill her pride.

There was a butch on the forums somewhere that said she asks if a femme has long nails before they even start talking. i thought that was so sad.


The day i have to be someone else to validate my partner is a sad day indeed.

[justkim]

dee, thank you so much for this... all of it... I am many things... most of all NOT afraid to get dirty... so my friend you are not alone...
For me I have been told that because my hair was short/shorter that I wasn't femme enough... Yet, when I came out I was told because I wore makeup, heels, skirts, and had long nails I wasn't a lesbian. I wear heels, skirts, my nails are long, and my toes are polished... mind you there is so much more to me than those things I have listed. I can work most power tools and I am not afraid to pick up a hammer...
I hate labels... I don't want to feel like a can of soup that can be removed from the shelf, looked over and put back because I am not femme enough...
I hope I have made some kind of sense as I have yet to have a full cup of coffee...

Lets all take a moment to truly see the person in front of us, no matter how they id...

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

i can only speak for myself. i am a girl, a woman, a femme ... thats who i am. i didn't go out and find a label then try to conform to it. i am me and if there is a label out there fine i don't care, but i can't live up to someone expectations of what the label means.

i also like to play in the mud, catch, clean and cook my own fish, i want to drive my own boat thank you. i can change the oil in my truck and am very mechanically inclined. i fix things. i am just as comfy in overalls (sometimes i even wear a shirt with them) and workboots as i am in a sundress and sandals. i don't cater to long nails but my toes are well taken care of. i guess at tomboy at times, i've always been that.

WHen i left my job as a banking officer i ditched all of my dress up clothes and enjoyed a life of not having to deal with all of it. i love jeans, a nice shirt and boots, i cuss, i cut my hair off if it gets in the way.

i have been with butches who felt my being less than high femme was not acceptable. i will never forget the look on my exes face when she walked in and i had my hand in a fish's gut. She was horrified and said femmes just don't do those sorts of things.

i was told to get fingernails and wear more *feminine* clothes.

One day a butch was at my house visiting when it began to pour down raining. My boat was filling up with water... she went out to bail it... i grabbed my pump and hooked my battery up to it like i always did. Afterwards she told me i took away her butch card by doing that. i suppose i was to let my boat sink so her so called pride could stay in tact? She said i kill her pride.

There was a butch on the forums somewhere that said she asks if a femme has long nails before they even start talking. i thought that was so sad.


The day i have to be someone else to validate my partner is a sad day indeed.

[CherylNYC]

While I really enjoyed both Cajun Dee's and justkim's posts, and I understand that Dykumentary invited posts on femme experiences with body image, I think that these posts would be more appropriate in a different thread.

This is the Butch Zone. The OP started a really important conversation about butch body image. It seems that we femmes are far more experienced at discussing body image issues. It would be easy for us to overwhelm this thread, which is about a subject butches aren't often accustomed to addressing.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

While I really enjoyed both Cajun Dee's and justkim's posts, and I understand that Dykumentary invited posts on femme experiences with body image, I think that these posts would be more appropriate in a different thread.

This is the Butch Zone. The OP started a really important conversation about butch body image. It seems that we femmes are far more experienced at discussing body image issues. It would be easy for us to overwhelm this thread, which is about a subject butches aren't often accustomed to addressing.

Femmes are more experienced at discussing body image issues? Maybe i didn't get that because it's not for me. i felt comfortable answering in this thread when i was asked to as this seemed like a pretty safe place to talk about a sensitive issue for me. i appreciated that. i know Kim pretty well and feel safe to say she felt the same way. She can correct me if i am wrong on that. I've share some of the same experiences as the butches that have posted so letting them know they aren't alone in the BF world felt like a good thing. If NOT, i surely do apologize. i hardly think speaking up, when asked by a butch about this subject constitutes overwhelming a thread.

[Turtle]

For me, it is quite present the depth to which people are hurt by being put out of community and/or told they are not a "proper ______" - fill in the blank.

I believe our lives are for us to figure out who we are and that we do that in relationship with other beings. In this society (of course this is a generalization), there is more rejection, judgement, and damage than in some other societies where people are kinder and view young people as spiritual beings to be nurtured into healthy adulthood.

In my life, I try to be present and really see people and value who they are because we are all in different places in the process of learning how to be better, more full and conscious beings and I believe we should be helping, not hurting, each other as best we can.

I believe identity formation, be it butch or femme or anything else, is central to who we are as human beings.

...even if we end up letting go of said identity later on...it's all part of the process of becoming a more full human being capable of loving ourselves and others.

When I had someone tell me at the age of 14 when I was in a wedding in a lovely dress - that I looked so grown up - I needed to figure out why that compliment bothered me. I decided that what bothered me was that I was the same person that Saturday as I was the Sunday before when they saw me and that seeing me in a dress had nothing to do with who I really was at the time. They were not really seeing or knowing me.

And without these types of incidents and without spending the time thinking about them I would not come to know who I am and what I think about things...and for that I am thankful.

[Toughy]

This is a thread about butch body image in the butch zone. There are plenty of threads in the femme zone about femme body issues. I promise if a couple of three butches posted about our body image in a femme thread (even if asked by a femme) all holy hell would break loose.

Please take your femme stuff to the femme threads. Thank you

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Turtle

For me, it is quite present the depth to which people are hurt by being put out of community and/or told they are not a "proper ______" - fill in the blank.

Yes unfortunately humans can be downright mean. I think there are times when we think this community or others we have belonged to would be a safe haven. Not so true!

Clicks are everywhere including here. If you don't fit the click you don't fit. There are some who judge everyone by looks and looks only.

I find it a shame that anyone feels bad about who they are, how they id and how they think they have to look to fit in.

All of us no matter our ID come in all shapes and sizes and that is what makes us all so damn cool!