What men say about women when they don't know you've lived as a woman
 

This is an interesting article. I'm particularly astonished by Austin (a few comments down) who claims he's never heard any misogyny from a cis-gendered guys lips. I can't believe that is true.

I've never met a transguy or a sex worker who hasn't witnessed or experienced men making derogatory comments about women. Part of 'being a man' is the expectation of not policing other men's behaviour. Luckily the transguys I know got fed up in the end and refused to participate in other men's bad behaviour, or stayed open about their transition.

Its true that 'some' men say pretty nasty things about women but they are of a type and often those who wouldnt dream of voicing those kind of comments, sometimes go along with it for fear of being unpopular and some because when guys are like that, theres little point in wasting energy arguing with them. People will be what they are - and come to that, Ive heard some pretty disgusting, filthy things coming out of women's mouths concerning men:seeingstars:

Interesting article...even more interesting, the comments after it.

Thanks :)

Jaques is right when it comes to sexism not being a one-way street. People may argue and say that because western society still favours men that it's even moreso not all right for there to be sexism against women, but in our society everyone polices each other, and nobody polices each other like women do.

A close transguy friend of mine has often bitterly come to me and talked about the nasty sexist things he's heard not only from men, but from women, about everyone. He said that, to him, the stuff about women stands out because of the years spent living as a girl and woman, and because of his love for his wife and their daughters. The stuff about men stands out to him because he still finds himself on his guard about gender presentation, although he passes. The stuff about queer people in general, too, stands out because of the fear which remains in queers because of the backhanded, backstage treatment they get when they think another red-blooded het-and-cis dude is listening. I listen, and I agree, and I feel upset.

No matter what someone's gender ID is, there's always someone out there who'll make them feel terrible for not being an ideal of "enough" or "correct". I see it within queer communities, too, where folks will critique butches and effeminate gays for transgressing gender standards, or for taking on gender standards which don't belong to their birth-assigned sex.

For all of the women out there who cut each other down harshly to build themselves up, the men who cut women down harshly to try and retain their slipping grip on patriarchal privilege, the men who target each other with gender policing and "no-homo" talk, the women who emasculate men for perceived gender failings when relating to women, the folks who don't fit into gender binary who closely observe the behaviour of non-binary others who may not fit their ideal of gender warrior... please stop. Please God, stop.

I hear some femmes even within our community talk down about butches as though they're some sort of ideal of buffoonish, cartoonish masculinity; I also hear some butches talk about femmes as though they were a different species constructed completely out of asspain and intentional feminine misery. This, I think, is incomprehensible.

However... however... for every person I meet who has nothing good to say about anyone, I meet some others who eschew bias altogether and simply enjoy the varieties and stereotypical behaviour identifications in others not as gendered behaviour, but individual foibles and endearments.

It's all sexism and any perpetuation of sexism from anyone towards anyone makes life just a little harder for everyone. There are better ways to bond with others than to bring someone else down.

*hands the soapbox back and dusts off her tights*

Rather than add the entire quote, I'll just say...well said Genghisfawn.

It's funny because one thing that I thought about when I saw the title to this thread is the things I hear when people don't know that I'm gay. I'm not out at work because I don't think it's anyone's business there, so I hear a lot of things.
Sometimes I say something about it, sometimes I just feel that it's not worth the fight because the one that I would be fighting with doesn't matter enough.

The times that I do say something is when it's against someone in particular at work, then I think it's worth the battle. But there are some people out there that no matter what you say, it just doesn't get through. Those are the one's that I walk away from. Sometimes it's just not worth it.

Great thoughts Geghisfawn.

I think we are missing a couple more pieces....for sexism to thrive it requires the participation of women as well. A society sustains itself from within.

Also, misogynism exists even in trans guys and maybe those that say cis-guys never say anything are used to being in/viewing/agreeing with those sentiments perhaps even on a subconscious level.

I'd say this isn't just stuff that men say when women aren't around, it's definitely said when women are around, too. And pretty frequently. I see it all the time at work and most people think it's ok. I don't see this as some "top secret cisguy thing" at all when it's something that is so obvious, socially accepted and happens daily in front of women's own eyes.

As far as where transguys fit into the equation, I really don't think it's so cut and dry. Many transguys who don't live "stealth" also have to face the assumptions made by cisguys or ciswomen who are aware of them as trans people that the only reason the transguy is saying anything at all is because he really "is" a woman or "has been" a woman...which many transguys would say they are neither women nor ever have been women, but have been wrongly perceived that way. A big difference between being and perception. But either way results in dismissal of anything he has to say because of that perception.

The problem and the solution are much, much bigger than claiming that all transguys must speak up against misogyny on a daily individual basis or simply calling out sexism/misogyny on a daily individual basis. It's rarely those situations that actually result in any social change when the media and government are all spewing the same crap and backing it up by claiming it is "natural" or "logical" or "reality." I've had so many heated discussions with both men and women over misogynist and/or sexist comments, and they very frequently end the same way. Which is not a positive way. The entire system and way we perceive gender needs to be changed, what we deem acceptable and the way that approach causes change is evident in the way society has changed over the years. People change oppressive beliefs, at least for the most part, over years or even generations. They base it on what they were taught at school as children and by the media, primarily, or through personal experience with oppression and discrimination. If the media, government and schools continue to peddle misogyny and sexism in general, then very little will change.

Is that meant to say that nothing should be said on an individual basis? Of course, not. Quite the contrary. But at the same time, I think energy is better spent trying to attack sexism at the root. As long as sexism is supported by the media, industry and legally then it will always continue.

Whether and when women denigrate themselves, each other, or men is not the subject of the article. It's an article about what men say to each other when they think they're just amongst other men like themselves. It's furthermore about the duty that people who once were female, or at least female bodied, have to not let those comments pass.

It's endlessly irritating to me that we can't simply discuss male misogyny without having to add that 'women say f**ked up stuff, too'. Or my favourite, 'Women abuse/rape men, too'. It's really, really OK to talk about male misogyny without talking about ways in which women fail. Really.

As for the actual content of the article, I've often found myself repulsed and threatened by what men have said to each other when they thought women weren't listening. I work with a great many giant, well fed men whose job is to lift and move scenery from here to there. While there are plenty who do not, and would not, say the things I find most horrifying, they're also not in the habit of challenging those who do. There have been far too many times when I've found myself on the other side of a piece of scenery while the abovementioned oversized men have said something particularly violent and threatening about specific women, or women in general. The few times when they've realised I was within earshot, they've been embarrassed and apologetic.

Yes, yes, yes, yes!! Thank you for saying this. There must be some way in which this is extremely threatening because many women feel the need to come to the defense of men or male id'd people whenever this kind of conversation starts. I don't think it's necessary to divert the focus. I think discussing misogyny is always worthwhile. I think communication, accountability and honesty are key in order to bring about change. As women or female bodied people we don't need to protect or defend or deflect.

This kind of stuff reminds me of conversations about racism where someone feels it's important to say that black people had slaves and/or sold rival tribe members to slave traders.

THIS!! All of it!!!
 

Thank you for voicing this so well!!!

I thought the same thing but couldn't come up with this great of wording!!

Thanks Cheryl!!!

I agree 100%

Oh please...I have many close post-op ftm friends....And wow, if straight women could see, and hear, the comments and behavior (especially in the men's room and the gym locker rooms)...well...it aint' pretty. I have heard things first hand, that would probably make most women dry heave.

Not *all* bio guys...but MANY.

It's a whole 'nother world.

:|

Yeah, I think we can talk about sexism without blaming women. Thank you Cheryl!

Thank you for posting the article Quin!

Nice posts Cheryl & Mystic. :candle:

It really does seem as though we live in a world where the behaviour of men is not policed, whereas the behaviour of women is policed by everyone.

Their being embarrassed and apologetic is not my experience at all. In fact, where I work and have worked on and off for many years (warehouses, hardware stores etc), as well as the previous industry I worked in, the opposite was the case. Men were and are saying disgusting shit to women's faces. It wasn't and isn't something that they go around saying behind women's backs. It happens in both environments, whether women are present or not. When this shit happens in the work place, it's also management that needs to change. Many women don't say shit (or even defend these guys when someone challenges them) when a lot of similar statements as demonstrated in the article are said to them or about other women.

The fact that this shit is seen as socially acceptable should be addressed here, imo. When guys say this shit or display unsafe behaviour and a woman or transguy goes to management about it because its repeated frequently and often, management in those industries rarely take it seriously. And that should be the point, imo. That this is not some "shocking and earthshattering discovery" that men supposedly say when women aren't around/behind closed doors, but that men do say it when women are around and that authoritative bodies do not take it seriously. I've been hearing men say shit like this about and to women to women's faces since I was a kid, and particularly since I began working as a teen (having worked most in minimum wage jobs...which is perhaps another issue of in what environment and in front of what status of women men feel they can say and do anything without consequence...because there is no consequence in many of these industries). It's time to stop acting shocked about something we already know is happening every minute of every day, and start taking bigger steps to make sure those with the authoritative power to do something about it start taking this shit seriously and put consequences and appropriate education in place.

I'm sorry, but it's not for you or anyone else to label other people's bodies nor to tell them what their duty is according to the way you perceive their bodies. Everyone makes their own duty. I think every human being should be calling out misogyny, transphobia, racism, classism, homophobia, ableism and discrimination of any sort...but I would never place a "duty" on someone else's shoulders simply based on my perception of who they are and what I think they have or haven't experience because of the body I perceive them to inhabit or to have inhabited at any given time. You don't solve anything by mislabeling people's bodies and telling them what they should or shouldn't be doing according to their bodies.

I guess for me, I would hope that women or someone who was once female bodied, or anyone who has a mother, sister, daughter, female loved one would want to stand up for what is right.

But true Ender, we each do have our own walk.

I do know that I expect more out of women, while at the same time knowing that I don't always say anything and that my expecting more from a women is sexist in itself.

i've definitely been in food service jobs where i heard this shit (and experienced/saw other coworkers experience) sexual harassment on a daily basis by the managers and owners. i'm sure there are some men who wait til i'm out of earshot to say these things but i've been around plenty who, as ender says, have no problem saying it to my face because they can and it's considered socially acceptable.

i tend to take it as par for the course being a sex worker, but within the industry it's much different (and sometimes not as prevalent) because the power dynamics are different compared to other jobs.

The actual article isn't about overt sexual harassment, rather it's the side of men that many women don't know exist. What men say about women (and I suspect other minorities) when it's just other men within earshot. Sex workers don't necessarily experience sexual harassment, but they're privy to the way men talk about their wives, girlfriends and female colleagues.

My husband has warned a couple of early transition FTM's in our social circle to be ready for male 'banter'.

as a sex worker, i haven't actually experienced men talking much about their significant others (oddly enough). the worst thing most men say about their significant others to me is that they wish their significant other looked like me, or looked different, or was more adventurous in bed. i have experienced them talking badly about me behind my back and to my face, but the difference is that i am not at their mercy as i would be in a regular job, so i can just refuse to have them as a client (and sometimes blacklist them to other sex workers).

i get that the article is about what men say when women aren't around...i just (as ender and others have pointed out) am not sure this is necessarily a "hidden" side of men, since many of them are perfectly comfortable saying things like this when we ARE around. perhaps for some women it's a surprise but to most women i know it wouldn't be a surprise because men have said these things to our face.

my .02 worth
 

As an FtM who is legally male and how has been in the transportation industy for over 23 yrs I have heard csi-men and women talk trash about the other. Some to the faces of the intended person or persons and some behind their backs.

I find this rude and appalling always have. I dont use a CB in my truck anymore due to this, I just couldnt keep my mouth shut whenever I heard a man trashing a woman or just being plain rude to her. It was easy to do it behind a mic of the CB cause I was anonymous however there was several times that I have been caught "correcting" the other person. Its never a pretty site however I stood my ground and always will.

I dont think its my RESPONSIBILITY as a female born bodied man to correct such behavior but that of a HUMAN being who wants all people to be accepted for who they ARE not who we think they SHOULD be.

I have never really lived as a woman, well IDENTIFIED as one, I was passing for a man years and I mean years prior to actually starting my transition. Im talking back in jr high I would be mistaken for a boy. So how would I go about addressing the issue with another man that once I lived as a woman and IM offended by what you are saying. Why cant I just be offended as a person who has a woman as my mother, who loves women and man who RESPECTS women? To me that is where I need to stand as a human being who wants all to be accepted for who they are and NOT what I think they should be.

For the last 7 years I have had an on going battle to get my parents to see me as their CHILD not JUST their daughter. I havent won the battle but I havent given up who I am either.

I think that all of us in some ways are guilty of some bad behavior towards the opposite gender or expression of their gender. I have caught myself saying things about both men and women when I witness how they are driving or doing something stupid. I may not say it out loud but it does cross my mind. Im not perfect nor will I ever be however I do see this as a fault of mine. Im working on it and have came along way cause I used to scream it at them.

I myself wish that in our ever changing world we as a people, a nation, a global citizen would recognize that each and every person is different is some ways and that is what makes the world a better place and exciting place.

I dont expect change to happen any time soon however I think each of us needs to take a step and keep moving forward towards that change. Maybe by time or grandchildren come along they will have a difference out look on what is gender and how to treat said the opposite genders.

please note I misspelled a word in the 2nd paragraph so please dont rush to judgement I did change it

PS:
 

The environment and the status of the women involved probably does play a part in the amount of freedom men feel they have to say and do stuff without consequence. I imagine class may have some impact on how sexism and misogyny are expressed as well as to whom it is directed. But it hasn’t any impact on the existence of sexism and misogyny in general. It’s reminiscent of the differences between racism in the north and the south. I’ve heard people comment that they prefer the in your face racism of the south to the some of my best friends are black racism of the north. To me there is nothing redeeming in any ‘ism’, regardless of how it is expressed or the class of the person expressing it. As a matter of fact the more subtle, the more unconscious, the more acceptable the misogyny the more dangerous.

Misogyny and sexism are integral and accepted parts of the fabric of society in general. They are both unconscious and subtle and purposeful and bold. This kind of stuff just is and it’s pretty much accepted, even rewarded. Maybe it’s a relief when someone says something extremely misogynistic and sexist cause that’s easy to see and it might make us feel better cause we think if we can combat this blatant kind of misogyny things will improve. But that is an illusion. Misogyny/sexism is such a fact of life that one would have an easier time getting people to see air.

Perhaps class, status and environment determine the likelihood that men will pull their punches. But that’s just pus icing on a shit cake. Because the truth is this is how human beings have been socialized to treat the female gender and this is how most really feel whether they are comfortable enough to express it or not.

I am not talking about the garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things, I've tried to make clear within both my posts that I am stating that this extreme "hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric" is not something men, in my experience, leave for when women aren't around. I hear it said to women's faces every day. Where I work so much disgusting shit gets said to female employees by both fellow empoyees and customers, it's not even funny. Management doesn't give a shit (just as they don't give a shit when a customer uses the N-word or is excessively racist towards an employee...nothing is done, customer is not asked to leave, all the company wants is money and they couldn't care less how you treat employees). I've heard guys talk about women as nature's punching bag to women's faces, pedophilia jokes get made galore, rape jokes. We had a poster up that was a "name a paint colour" for the paint section of our store. The colour on the poster was purple and some nightcrew ass, for the jollies, decided to suggest "black eye" as the name of the colour..."cause the bitch didn't listen." I had to be the one to go scratch the whole thing out because every time I passed it I was a step closer to kicking the shit out of the guy. Not a thing was said by management or most anyone. "Just vandalism."

I've heard all kinds rape shit, objectification of women of colour and any nasty thing you can think of that I've heard while I'm among guys said to women. What I'm saying is that these extreme things that some see as "shocking," as "something that men say when women aren't around," is in my experience something they do say when women are around.



I'm not attempting to blame women at all. I don't understand why you're saying "once again." I've done exactly the opposite, or at least that has been the entire insane driving force behind every single one of my posts in this thread. To show the consequences of misogyny and that this isn't some hidden side of men. The portion of my post you snipped is taken out of context, and context is 100% relevant to what I'm trying to say here. Here is the entirety of it.

The bolded bit especially is a part of a single train of thought. When I talk about women not saying shit about the misogynist and horrendous bullshit that are said to their faces in the work place, when I'm talking about some women even going as far as to defend some of these asshats, I'm talking about the consequences of misogyny. Women often don't report this kind of brutal language used in the work place for a number of reasons. They don't report it because they've been conditioned to believe that what these men are saying is, on some level, true. They might not report it because they've been conditioned to believe these men have a right to "free speech," and therefore the right to verbally abuse women. They might be intimidated or frightened. They might not want to make waves in t he workplace. Or they simply might realise that management won't do shit, because they've been in that situation before.



I was talking about hearing men say things to women, specifically. I stated that I have heard men saying these things to women's faces for ages, and especially at my job. I've had friends born into extremely poor neighbourhoods who have also talked about little to no inhibition as far as the language used to discuss women in front of women. It's about me being able to compare what men say to women's faces and what they "say behind women's backs," and I really haven't seen a massive difference even in situations where they didn't realise I was trans. What I was getting at when I was saying that management, for example, don't give a shit when a woman or even a transguy who is openly trans says something is also my commentary on the notion that transguys somehow have the power to change men's attitudes. Many of us really don't if we don't want to live "stealth." The first post I wrote in this thread was more focusing on that, but this also touches on it. I live quite openly as a transguy because being open is important to me so that society stops thinking that there are only two sexes and two ways of being male/female. Cis people aren't the be all and end all, and transmen aren't "once woman/female" and transwomen aren't "once men/male" unless stated specifically by that trans person. But being openly trans has its pitfalls when challenging misogyny among men and is rarely if ever successful among straight cis men. Even when I'm not in an environment where I'm openly trans, if you become known as the guy who challenges misogyny, I've also noticed that the conversation while you're around becomes extremely reserved over time...which has less to do with sex or gender, and more to do with avoidance. At least in my experience.

It's almost expected that men are going to be crude and violent in the construction industry. And that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about socially-accepted verbal violence towards women. Maybe if I were sitting at some cocktail party with a bunch of cigar-smoking rich corporate white guys I'd have a different experience. But that isn't my experience, and I'd guess that probably isn't most people's experiences, or at least most people I know.



I agree, but I still think the intersection of class and sexism, just as with racism, is a huge part of the discussion, though. It cannot be left out. It's the same reason upper middle class white men still are more likely to be verbally abusive and crude toward a sex worker, minimum wage worker or any woman of colour than a middle or upper class white woman. They may be all sugar and spice in front of their wife or girlfriend (who is also likely white and middle or upper class), but remove her from the equation and you'll see what they're really like. Not as much reservation occurs in front of women who aren't of that class/race combo. We can't ignore that. So when we have a topic that says "what men say about women when they aren't around," then maybe we should consider renaming it to "what men say about women when white middle or upper class women aren't around." In that case the discussion cannot only be about misogyny, but about a specific type of misogyny that is strongly related to race, class and ability. And as for the transguys writing the article...I also wonder what they're class and race are and how that affects their experience and the difference they claim to have noticed.


The author writes at the end:

Unlike the author, I don't consider myself to ever have been a female-bodied or female-identified person. Society's perception is another, and if anything I can only talk about what it is like to be perceived by society a certain way. That being said, that doesn't change my commitment. I've been called a "PC/lefty crusader" far too many times and this entire subject is one that enrages me beyond belief. Do I wish that everyone were committed to ending oppression? Yes...but not once will I claim to that anyone has some kind of inherent or absolute duty, and certainly I will never make an assumption about another trans person's body, their body's history and place a "duty" upon their bodies. Assumptions about trans people's bodies should never have a place, just as misogyny should never have a place no matter the discussion.

Anyways, back on to the original topic, aishah's post perhaps says what I've been trying to get at better than I have:

That's pretty much it. I don't see it as a "hidden side" of men, either. It's only hidden if you're of a certain privileged class/race combination, and that shouldn't always be assumed as the common experience.

To be honest I haven't heard too many negative things from most other guys. I hear the occasional complaints about how women are confusing or things their girlfriends do that annoy them.

There was only one instance that ever bothered me-

When I was about 20 I was on a bus. I was with a friend who was a little younger than me on the bus. She decided to start poking me and teasing me so I reacted by tickling her side to get her to stop. She let out a scream and then we both burst into laughter.

She ended up getting off the bus and this weird guy came up to me. He was mabey about 30. He asked me if she was my girlfriend and I said no. He went on a tirade about how women could get away with anything. It really creeped me out. I pretended to listen because I felt legitimately threatened by this man. I assume from the way he talked to me he assumed I was a 15 year old boy. Which sickened me to be honest.

After his tirade about women he started a tirade about god. He asked me if I was christian. At this point I was getting kind of pissed off. I firmly said no. Got up and sat next to the driver till I had to get off the bus. I was really glad he didn't get off at the stop I got off at.

It's A Mad Mad Potty Mouth World
 

Men mistake me for another guy all the time.There would be this group of guys(me included) and women were always a hot topic.We(women) are blamed for all their headaches.Women have also mistaken me for "another woman" and men were always to be blamed for this or that.The blame game.That's all it is,boring.

I have heard vulgar language used by both sexes,about the female and male anatomy.When you ask them to stop they only get worse.

My 2 cents worth (w)

A lot of men who say these things don't mean it in earnest. Most of the time it's an off-color expression of frustration and a way to desensitize to the awful things in the world, not actual disrespect or misogyny. I've said rude things in private about people I'm angry at, and rude words for various attributes of theirs have been deployed in those moments. It doesn't mean I hate their entire nationality or race or sex.

There are some men who say misogynist things and mean it, but in general nobody thinks highly of them except for their own kind.

That was a conundrum I ran into when living as male, the dual expectation that I imitate that and be punished for it. I had plenty of male friends before and very few of them behaved in the way people expected me to. I started to because I had to, I wasn't in a position to argue or bargain when it was contingent on getting HRT. I overdid it like I was expected to. Nobody liked it. Everyone wanted me to chill out and stop acting like a tool.

Then I overdid it in the opposite direction, and ran into some actual tools who capitalized on my unwillingness to behave as one. I then took some time to re-evaluate life and decided I had to be capable of out-tooling the tools without becoming one. I do it for exercise now and then, in places designated for the performance of toolishness, so if and when the enemy come a-knocking I'll be ready and unintimidated.

I hear men complain about women regarding things like women are just here for us men to use. Or a woman say that the only reason she is with a man is for his money. Or both sexes talk about each others inadequaticies in the bedroom or in their relationship.

I know I am guilty of these things but when I say things it's due to frustration. Mostly done in private.