What men say about women when they don't know you've lived as a woman

[Quintease]

This is an interesting article. I'm particularly astonished by Austin (a few comments down) who claims he's never heard any misogyny from a cis-gendered guys lips. I can't believe that is true.

I've never met a transguy or a sex worker who hasn't witnessed or experienced men making derogatory comments about women. Part of 'being a man' is the expectation of not policing other men's behaviour. Luckily the transguys I know got fed up in the end and refused to participate in other men's bad behaviour, or stayed open about their transition.

[Jaques]

Its true that 'some' men say pretty nasty things about women but they are of a type and often those who wouldnt dream of voicing those kind of comments, sometimes go along with it for fear of being unpopular and some because when guys are like that, theres little point in wasting energy arguing with them. People will be what they are - and come to that, Ive heard some pretty disgusting, filthy things coming out of women's mouths concerning men

[Soon]

Interesting article...even more interesting, the comments after it.

Thanks

[genghisfawn]

Jaques is right when it comes to sexism not being a one-way street. People may argue and say that because western society still favours men that it's even moreso not all right for there to be sexism against women, but in our society everyone polices each other, and nobody polices each other like women do.

A close transguy friend of mine has often bitterly come to me and talked about the nasty sexist things he's heard not only from men, but from women, about everyone. He said that, to him, the stuff about women stands out because of the years spent living as a girl and woman, and because of his love for his wife and their daughters. The stuff about men stands out to him because he still finds himself on his guard about gender presentation, although he passes. The stuff about queer people in general, too, stands out because of the fear which remains in queers because of the backhanded, backstage treatment they get when they think another red-blooded het-and-cis dude is listening. I listen, and I agree, and I feel upset.

No matter what someone's gender ID is, there's always someone out there who'll make them feel terrible for not being an ideal of "enough" or "correct". I see it within queer communities, too, where folks will critique butches and effeminate gays for transgressing gender standards, or for taking on gender standards which don't belong to their birth-assigned sex.

For all of the women out there who cut each other down harshly to build themselves up, the men who cut women down harshly to try and retain their slipping grip on patriarchal privilege, the men who target each other with gender policing and "no-homo" talk, the women who emasculate men for perceived gender failings when relating to women, the folks who don't fit into gender binary who closely observe the behaviour of non-binary others who may not fit their ideal of gender warrior... please stop. Please God, stop.

I hear some femmes even within our community talk down about butches as though they're some sort of ideal of buffoonish, cartoonish masculinity; I also hear some butches talk about femmes as though they were a different species constructed completely out of asspain and intentional feminine misery. This, I think, is incomprehensible.

However... however... for every person I meet who has nothing good to say about anyone, I meet some others who eschew bias altogether and simply enjoy the varieties and stereotypical behaviour identifications in others not as gendered behaviour, but individual foibles and endearments.

It's all sexism and any perpetuation of sexism from anyone towards anyone makes life just a little harder for everyone. There are better ways to bond with others than to bring someone else down.

*hands the soapbox back and dusts off her tights*

[Cid]

Rather than add the entire quote, I'll just say...well said Genghisfawn.

It's funny because one thing that I thought about when I saw the title to this thread is the things I hear when people don't know that I'm gay. I'm not out at work because I don't think it's anyone's business there, so I hear a lot of things.
Sometimes I say something about it, sometimes I just feel that it's not worth the fight because the one that I would be fighting with doesn't matter enough.

The times that I do say something is when it's against someone in particular at work, then I think it's worth the battle. But there are some people out there that no matter what you say, it just doesn't get through. Those are the one's that I walk away from. Sometimes it's just not worth it.

[Silverseastar]

Great thoughts Geghisfawn.

I think we are missing a couple more pieces....for sexism to thrive it requires the participation of women as well. A society sustains itself from within.

Also, misogynism exists even in trans guys and maybe those that say cis-guys never say anything are used to being in/viewing/agreeing with those sentiments perhaps even on a subconscious level.

[Talon]

Originally Posted by Quintease

This is an interesting article. I'm particularly astonished by Austin (a few comments down) who claims he's never heard any misogyny from a cis-gendered guys lips. I can't believe that is true.

I've never met a transguy or a sex worker who hasn't witnessed or experienced men making derogatory comments about women. Part of 'being a man' is the expectation of not policing other men's behaviour. Luckily the transguys I know got fed up in the end and refused to participate in other men's bad behaviour, or stayed open about their transition.

Oh please...I have many close post-op ftm friends....And wow, if straight women could see, and hear, the comments and behavior (especially in the men's room and the gym locker rooms)...well...it aint' pretty. I have heard things first hand, that would probably make most women dry heave.

Not *all* bio guys...but MANY.

It's a whole 'nother world.

[Apocalipstic]

Yeah, I think we can talk about sexism without blaming women. Thank you Cheryl!

Thank you for posting the article Quin!

Nice posts Cheryl & Mystic.

[Quintease]

It really does seem as though we live in a world where the behaviour of men is not policed, whereas the behaviour of women is policed by everyone.