[Toughy]

me in this color and I'm doing it this way to keep me on track...

Originally Posted by Greyson

Toughy, I am asking these questions in the spirit of understanding the perspective of others that may not have similar views and to learn. First, I respect you and many of your views, a great deal.

My question is why must there be such a hard line distinction between Trans and Butch? Through all of the discussions we have had in this community, I think many of us do make an effort to be respectful of gender I.D. I do not think that to be Trans necessarily erases all female markers, biological, genetics and socialized attributes. I don't think to be a woman identified butch makes one less butch or not butch.

Over my years on-line I have done my best to hold space for butch folks who also are women and/or prefer female pronouns. For a long time (on the dash site) I was almost the lone voice until Bully finally appeared and then others. Finally the Planet was born and space for butch women was made much bigger and many more of us came out of the closet so to speak.

One of the reason I have been so adamant about this has to do with folks just coming into their own identity as masculine beings. Butch does not equal man or trans. You can be butch and woman and use female pronouns or you can be a male id'd butch, male prounouns and still not be man or trans. By putting this thread in the 'Trans Zone' and calling it the 'Trans Appreciation' thread, then addressing butch folk first, the impression IS butch = trans = man. It's like butch is the first label in the journey to being a (trans) man. Men/male id'd folks do not own masculinity any more than women/female id'd folks own femininity.

What about people born cisgender men, that transition, really are women, MTF and now lesbian? (No I am not referring to any specific person in this community. It is a generalization.) What if they are not woman identified lesbians now but just Butch? Are they not butch? Are they not trans women?

Yes they are butch. Yes they are trans women. You don't have to be women id'd to be butch. I do know a couple of butch women who started life with a penis and I am sure they do not like butch being conflated with man....that kind of negates their entire experience.

I get that your post is about you and how you feel. I am not challenging that at all. Your feelings are real. What I am trying to understand is how are many of us on the masculine spectrum and queer so very different?

We all are alike and we all are different. That is just the nature of human beings. All us masculine beings have had a journey that is alike and is also different. I think we can celebrate the sameness of masculinity and also celebrate the difference of masculinity.

I do apologize if I have offended you or others. Honestly, that is not my goal. My goal is to find some clarity, resolution on what feels like some sort of line in the sand.

As a Butch, do you feel any thanks? I ask this because she did include "butch" in her post. Albeit, not "Woman identified butch."

My point was this thread is in the 'Trans Zone' folder. The title of the thread is 'Trans Appreciation'. She (the OP) first addressed butch and then in parentheses other folks on the masculine spectrum. That is incredibly confusing and by doing so I read this as a thanks to butch folk (not just butch women) and others and think it would be better placed in the 'General Gender Discussion' folder because the OP really addresses all of us on the masculine spectrum...not just trans and not just butch.

P.S. It feels risky to post this and I decided to do it because I really am looking for a discussion that may reveal, offer something to myself and maybe others.

My life would be incomplete without femmes. I am grateful every day of my life that femme exists. There are some femmes I am not so grateful about........such as the ones who refuse to use female pronouns and see butch as male/man, who always default butch away from woman and feminine.....

So yes I feel thanks from many of my femme sisters. That was never my point. The point is where this thread was placed and the incongruity between the title and the content of the post.

Hope this helps....happy to clarify if needed.