Trans Appreciation

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I wish folks would not conflate butch with trans. The above post wants to thank 'butches' and others. It's in 'the trans zone' folder and is titled 'trans appreciation'.

As a butch woman I do not feel thanked.

Toughy, I am asking these questions in the spirit of understanding the perspective of others that may not have similar views and to learn. First, I respect you and many of your views, a great deal.

My question is why must there be such a hard line distinction between Trans and Butch? Through all of the discussions we have had in this community, I think many of us do make an effort to be respectful of gender I.D. I do not think that to be Trans necessarily erases all female markers, biological, genetics and socialized attributes. I don't think to be a woman identified butch makes one less butch or not butch.

What about people born cisgender men, that transition, really are women, MTF and now lesbian? (No I am not referring to any specific person in this community. It is a generalization.) What if they are not woman identified lesbians now but just Butch? Are they not butch? Are they not trans women?

I get that your post is about you and how you feel. I am not challenging that at all. Your feelings are real. What I am trying to understand is how are many of us on the masculine spectrum and queer so very different?

I do apologize if I have offended you or others. Honestly, that is not my goal. My goal is to find some clarity, resolution on what feels like some sort of line in the sand.

As a Butch, do you feel any thanks? I ask this because she did include "butch" in her post. Albeit, not "Woman identified butch."

P.S. It feels risky to post this and I decided to do it because I really am looking for a discussion that may reveal, offer something to myself and maybe others.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Toughy,"
<snip>
P.S. It feels risky to post this and I decided to do it because I really am looking for a discussion that may reveal, offer something to myself and maybe others.

My friend..........your post should not feel risky because of me.....I'm so not offended or upset. I am happy to have this conversation. You know I totally respect you and your feelings/ideas....

just not tonite........I have a man with a hammer in my head and it's not making me happy......so tomorrow

[Toughy]

me in this color and I'm doing it this way to keep me on track...

Originally Posted by Greyson

Toughy, I am asking these questions in the spirit of understanding the perspective of others that may not have similar views and to learn. First, I respect you and many of your views, a great deal.

My question is why must there be such a hard line distinction between Trans and Butch? Through all of the discussions we have had in this community, I think many of us do make an effort to be respectful of gender I.D. I do not think that to be Trans necessarily erases all female markers, biological, genetics and socialized attributes. I don't think to be a woman identified butch makes one less butch or not butch.

Over my years on-line I have done my best to hold space for butch folks who also are women and/or prefer female pronouns. For a long time (on the dash site) I was almost the lone voice until Bully finally appeared and then others. Finally the Planet was born and space for butch women was made much bigger and many more of us came out of the closet so to speak.

One of the reason I have been so adamant about this has to do with folks just coming into their own identity as masculine beings. Butch does not equal man or trans. You can be butch and woman and use female pronouns or you can be a male id'd butch, male prounouns and still not be man or trans. By putting this thread in the 'Trans Zone' and calling it the 'Trans Appreciation' thread, then addressing butch folk first, the impression IS butch = trans = man. It's like butch is the first label in the journey to being a (trans) man. Men/male id'd folks do not own masculinity any more than women/female id'd folks own femininity.

What about people born cisgender men, that transition, really are women, MTF and now lesbian? (No I am not referring to any specific person in this community. It is a generalization.) What if they are not woman identified lesbians now but just Butch? Are they not butch? Are they not trans women?

Yes they are butch. Yes they are trans women. You don't have to be women id'd to be butch. I do know a couple of butch women who started life with a penis and I am sure they do not like butch being conflated with man....that kind of negates their entire experience.

I get that your post is about you and how you feel. I am not challenging that at all. Your feelings are real. What I am trying to understand is how are many of us on the masculine spectrum and queer so very different?

We all are alike and we all are different. That is just the nature of human beings. All us masculine beings have had a journey that is alike and is also different. I think we can celebrate the sameness of masculinity and also celebrate the difference of masculinity.

I do apologize if I have offended you or others. Honestly, that is not my goal. My goal is to find some clarity, resolution on what feels like some sort of line in the sand.

As a Butch, do you feel any thanks? I ask this because she did include "butch" in her post. Albeit, not "Woman identified butch."

My point was this thread is in the 'Trans Zone' folder. The title of the thread is 'Trans Appreciation'. She (the OP) first addressed butch and then in parentheses other folks on the masculine spectrum. That is incredibly confusing and by doing so I read this as a thanks to butch folk (not just butch women) and others and think it would be better placed in the 'General Gender Discussion' folder because the OP really addresses all of us on the masculine spectrum...not just trans and not just butch.

P.S. It feels risky to post this and I decided to do it because I really am looking for a discussion that may reveal, offer something to myself and maybe others.

My life would be incomplete without femmes. I am grateful every day of my life that femme exists. There are some femmes I am not so grateful about........such as the ones who refuse to use female pronouns and see butch as male/man, who always default butch away from woman and feminine.....

So yes I feel thanks from many of my femme sisters. That was never my point. The point is where this thread was placed and the incongruity between the title and the content of the post.

Hope this helps....happy to clarify if needed.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Toughy

me in this color and I'm doing it this way to keep me on track...



My life would be incomplete without femmes. I am grateful every day of my life that femme exists. There are some femmes I am not so grateful about........such as the ones who refuse to use female pronouns and see butch as male/man, who always default butch away from woman and feminine.....

So yes I feel thanks from many of my femme sisters. That was never my point. The point is where this thread was placed and the incongruity between the title and the content of the post.

Hope this helps....happy to clarify if needed.

thank you for writing that particular sentence.

i am consistently guilty of applying male ID'd pronouns to the butch folk in my life, though out of insensitivity or habit rather than any unwillingness to use female - or neutral - pronouns. i appreciate your candor as well as the constant and gentle - and even not so gentle - reminders of that misstep that i find in many threads. i keep reminding myself that my own invisibility usually makes me feel dismissed and heartworn. i really dont want to be the source of a similar kind of negation for others.

something else that i'm guilty of is projecting the privilege of my own "outness" onto others. specifically, i have made mistakes with regard to friends who choose not to be overt about being transgendered. i really feel like an asshat when i do it. i dont want to tell anyone elses story or expose anyone elses life to scrutiny - or G*d help them, danger - but i have been known to be insensitive about the degree to which people in my life share themselves with others. for the transmen and women who have not told me to go f*ck myself i am truly appreciative. and for those who have, i have to admit that i understand. i think that i just wish it were the same non-issue for others that it is for me.

i'd like to hear more about the things you and Greyson are talking about so i'm going to sit back and be quiet now. just wanted to throw my own appreciation and attempt at accountability into the mix because i have a great deal of admiration for the ways people embrace and express their self-respect and really hope i can learn to do the same for myself.

[1ladyface]

I understand that there are female IDed butches and I've dated several of them. My initial post was intended to be inclusive, not hurtful. I posted it in trans appreciation bc I was dating a transguy at the time and my 10 things list was written about him. I included butch and other IDs in that first post bc I realized as i was posting it that i didn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't post some appreciative words just bc their person is female IDed. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone or negate the experiences of female IDed butches. I thought I was just being inclusive. I'm sorry if you were offended.

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by 1ladyface

I understand that there are female IDed butches and I've dated several of them. My initial post was intended to be inclusive, not hurtful. I posted it in trans appreciation bc I was dating a transguy at the time and my 10 things list was written about him. I included butch and other IDs in that first post bc I realized as i was posting it that i didn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't post some appreciative words just bc their person is female IDed. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone or negate the experiences of female IDed butches. I thought I was just being inclusive. I'm sorry if you were offended.

This is one of those things that can be a cluster bomb for a femme generally..i have a great friend that is trans and at times i would innocently forget he preferred to be addressed in only male pronouns ie he, his etc..one day he just blew-up and dressed me down about it..i was a little bewildered because it wasn't intentional but to him it was an insult every time i slipped..When in mixed company it can be very difficult exactly how to address a person who is butch..visual cues are not always enough, I have learned to listen very carefully to how they express themselves and usually can put things together rather quickly in real time, here it's a slightly different dynamic and the politics can be a little baffling..when in doubt i usually post in the general forum for a thread i'm not sure of.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

one day he just blew-up and dressed me down about it..i was a little bewildered because it wasn't intentional but to him it was an insult every time i slipped..

It's important for all of us to know that it is not a minor thing to most people -- the pronoun. On the other hand, getting yelled at is bullshit.

I am happy (well not happy, but you know) to be corrected. But yell at me and you can go **** yourself. Not volunteering for that.

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by Martina

It's important for all of us to know that it is not a minor thing to most people -- the pronoun. On the other hand, getting yelled at is bullshit.

I am happy (well not happy, but you know) to be corrected. But yell at me and you can go **** yourself. Not volunteering for that.

lol..yes, depending on the situation i feel the same but he's a hot-head ..this was one of those rare times i didn't appreciate it

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by 1ladyface

I understand that there are female IDed butches and I've dated several of them. My initial post was intended to be inclusive, not hurtful. I posted it in trans appreciation bc I was dating a transguy at the time and my 10 things list was written about him. I included butch and other IDs in that first post bc I realized as i was posting it that i didn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't post some appreciative words just bc their person is female IDed. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone or negate the experiences of female IDed butches. I thought I was just being inclusive. I'm sorry if you were offended.

I get you meant no harm and I appreciate your apology..... But.......and yes there is a but........

It's not just female id'd butch folks. There are male id'd butch folks who are not trans. There are butch folks who do not identify with masculinity in any form, who view butch as a different kind of femininity.

And I brought this up because I cannot and will not be silent when I see butch of the non-trans varieties conflated with trans and/or man.

1ladyface.... I did not bring it up to call you out on anything because it's not really about you as an individual. And the learning curve here is a monster......the post would have been entirely appropriate in the Trans Zone folder speaking your thanks (thread titled Trans Appreciation) to trans/men and leaving out the 'inclusive' aspects and no reason for any non-trans person to get our panties/boxers in a bunch ..........at least that is my nickels worth....

[Blue_Daddy-O]

[QUOTE=Toughy;658395]

And I brought this up because I cannot and will not be silent when I see butch of the non-trans varieties conflated with trans and/or man.

[QUOTE]

I disagree with you Toughy. Based on 1ladyface's response I don't see conflation.

[BullDog]

[quote=Blue_Daddy-O;658410][QUOTE=Toughy;658395]

And I brought this up because I cannot and will not be silent when I see butch of the non-trans varieties conflated with trans and/or man.

I disagree with you Toughy. Based on 1ladyface's response I don't see conflation.

Any time butch and trans are put together we are automatically seen as he/male and referred to or compared to that.

It seems people are good about respecting those who do not wish to be called she or a woman. We would like the same courtesy in return.

I think it is nice to have a trans appreciation thread.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by 1ladyface

I understand that there are female IDed butches and I've dated several of them. My initial post was intended to be inclusive, not hurtful. I posted it in trans appreciation bc I was dating a transguy at the time and my 10 things list was written about him. I included butch and other IDs in that first post bc I realized as i was posting it that i didn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't post some appreciative words just bc their person is female IDed. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone or negate the experiences of female IDed butches. I thought I was just being inclusive. I'm sorry if you were offended.

I see nothing wrong with where you posted your appreciation. Makes sense to me and it appears you posted in the right place making your best effort to be inclusive. Enough said, to me.