[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip>
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

When I first read this post, I wanted to rep you, BullDog, for drawing attention to the importance for all masculine peoples (I'm sticking with the general here) to examine masculinity and how we wear/utilize it. I have spent a number of years consciously examining my masculinity in an effort to better understand the creature that I am, and so that I might more fluidly navigate a world that does not understand me without feeling perpetually ill at ease and misunderstood.

Then I got to this last paragraph. To put it bluntly, I felt a door closing. The door not solely to this thread, but to this site. Now, I know you weren't addressing me in particular and that I should know better than to take your statements personally. But I did. Your statement felt exclusionary. Your statement said, “In this female queer space, you are a tolerated outsider.” (There is a fundamental fallacy in the term “female queer space” in that this is not identified as “female queer space,” but I think that’s already been addressed.) What it feels like is that we (male identified) should have to justify our presence here. I resent feeling like I need to reveal parts of my history in order to be validated; like I should pull down my pants and show you my bits so we can see how “alike” we all are. I struggle constantly with trying to reconcile my life – my history, accomplishments, journies – with where I am today. I believed this was one place – and this is relevant to the thread title – where butches would understand; where I could be accepted as just butch.

What a lot of this feels like to me - this unwarranted saddling of male-id’ed butches with male privilege – is to place us in the position of oppressor.

Really?

Not so much. Because while I don’t disagree that there are circumstances in which female identified butches might feel invisible or have to fight to be seen as who they are, maybe we need to examine who is responsible for that, because, to quote Johnny Cash, it ain’t me, babe.

See, I just see butch. I don’t subscribe to hierarchal thinking, it’s rubbish, and anyone who does subscribe to it needs some serious educating. Not lines drawn, not us/them speak, not victim/oppressor posturing.

Last night, I wanted to ask to whom you addressed the following, “You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are.” Personally, I’m hoping you are fair minded enough to recognize that is a statement that applies equally to butches of all flavors, it is hardly unique to male-id’ed butches.

And then I thought, well, here goes another "butch (inclusive) thread turning into a gender identity war." That hadn't happened here yet. Now, I'm not blaming you for that simply because you were the first person to feel it necessary to draw some sort of line distinguishing "types" of butch. I suppose those of us who take issue with your post could simply have remained silent; just taken our invisibility and sat there quietly with it.

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip> Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities.

This feels incredibly dismissive to me:

"It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large..."

It's dismissive of male-identified/trans butches who have not one whiff of male privilege out in the world at large, and worse, it's dismissive of the shared experience of ALL butches. This thread, which got off to a rocky start, and may have been ill-conceived to begin with, was about what we relate to among ourselves - as butches. No modifiers necessary.