only another butch would understand

[BullDog]

Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.

As another example- gay men are masculine as well- some more than others. Whenever I have been in mixed settings lesbian/gay men the power dynamic is completely different than with just a lesbian setting. It is still a queer setting, but men tend to take over and take up a disproportionate amount of space.

You say you expect to be treated better now that you take T- to me that is a privilege. The fact that you recognize that the examination of masculinity as a Butch/Transman is ongoing and you find the discussion important to me means you are willing to take responsibility and work for change, and I appreciate that very much.

[Cyclopea]

Thank you for your answers. I was dumbfounded as to why the only negatively rated thread was the butch bonding thread.
As to the questions others have asked: I became conscious of being butch when others kept telling me I was. Often prefaced by the word "too".
And the pronouns- No I do not like being called bro or male pronouns. Out in the world I just assume the person is not paying very close attention. Unless it's a 'phobe saying it, in which case they are implying I am less than a real woman. If it is online from a stranger I just assume they are sexist and misogynist and that they elevate maleness over femaleness. Of course for those who prefer male pronouns for themselves I respect that preference completely. In that instance the person is only being themselves and I respect the bros that do. But I am not a bro.
Aso, I do burp on occasion but I try not to .

[Tommi]

"only another butch would understand", Hmmmm.. looking at title.

Hmmm..looking at posts..Looking up understand..Google Butch, and see what the world "understands" about us..Hmmm
Butch and femme

""Quote: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Butch (disambiguation).

Butch and femme are LGBT terms describing respectively, masculine and feminine traits, behaviour, style, expression, self-perception and so on. They are often used in the lesbian, bisexual and gay subcultures. A similar term, femme is also frequently used in the crossdressing community. Sometimes butch is used synonymously with dyke.

Happy Hump Day to those Butches that understand.

Butch and femme are sometimes used to represent two sides of a relationship, as in yin and yang, although some people prefer butch-butch and femme-femme relationships."""end quote

I Know What Butch Is.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ"]YouTube- I Know What Butch Is[/ame]

[Jess]

LMAO Tommi, ty ever so much! I haven't read this yet and it will be on my" list of books this butch will actually read," unless I can find it on audio book in which case I will listen to it while driving to meet my femme for a date that I will pay for unless she wants to or I will wait for the movie which I will take her to and open the door for her and buy her popcorn unless of course she decides that we should see it at at LGBT pvt viewing at the community center, which we of course do not have because we live in the southside of hillbilly hell.

I will definitely be buying this because it reminds me so much of how the heated threads on line regarding "defining and labeling" so often go.

Needed a good chuckle this morning, thank you Tommi

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.

Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default?

hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.

I agree we all need to speak up. That is what I am doing now and I, along with other butches like Toughy, have a very long history for speaking up about this very topic. We have worked tirelessly against the invisibility of women and female identified butches. And we have gotten a lot of shit for it along with some support. But yes, I whole heartedly agree with you. Thank you for your post.

[SuperFemme]

Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?

That's the thing, though, honey.

Show me the privilege.

What privilege are we automatically granting to our male id'd folks and transmen here that nobody else has? The privilege to say righteous shit and get away with it? I haven't seen that.

Am I blind?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.

Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.

I called it mythic, not because misogyny hasn't happened in our online spaces, but because yesterday it felt to me that you were separating female id'd folks from the male id'd ones in the Who is Just a Bit More Responsible for Examining Their Masculinity. It sounded like transmasculine guys and transmen might be more responsible for misogyny in these spaces. That isn't what I've seen. Hell, I've watched some femmes say some pretty righteous things over the years. And don't misinterpret my investment here. I haven't any. I love every kind of butch there is - equally. I just care that we don't isolate.

And when I first started reading butch/femme spaces, practically *everyone* was he or hy/she-ing. Tell me, who is responsible, if not... all of us?

[Dreams]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

excellent post!!