[Kobi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

You are asking a valid question. I think some of us butches have answered it indirectly.

If you need a direct response.....I would not take a femmes name for the same reasons I would not want a femme to take my name. To recap, marriage and the symbols of it have historically been derogatory to women. As a butch and a woman, that chaffs me.

In addition, women of my generation were socialized to believe that you could accomplish a multitude of things but until you are partnered, you have not accomplished your "role" as prescribed by society. And, you were validated as having fulfilled your "role" by a very public declaration of your partnership i.e. marriage, name changes or modifications. This also chaffs me.

Above any other id, I am a woman and a feminist. And, as a woman, I have a really hard time playing into anything that is symbolic of the sexism and misogyny of our society. And, I have a really hard time trying to romanticize something that directly or indirectly symbolizes the oppression of women.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are.

Snow, I love your passion and exuberance and always have, even when I don't agree with the content.

I appreciate when you give your feminist pep talks. However, I have a hard time when you put butches/men/guys in one big masculine glop and make generalizations about who we are and what we think.

It irks me (excessive chaffing) when I, as a woman, feminist, and butch are seen as part of a group that undervalues or sees femmes/women as something less than.

It irks me when I am addressing sexism and misogyny, internal and external and women are taking issue with me as tho I cant possibly know what the woman experience is like. Hello?

It is disheartening to advocate for my people i.e. women and to be put down or turned into fillet de butch for doing so.

Just once, you know, it would be nice to be appreciated for being a woman, a butch, and for speaking to sexism, misogyny, and stuff. Cuz, it affects me too.